Ship in a Bottle thought

[Timo]

Yet when Picard, Data, and Barclay finally end the program, none of them disappear; they're still standing in the same spot relative to each other.

But only if that's possible in the physical confines of the switched-off holodeck.

There's no need to create false images in such situations, obviously. And it's just by sheer chance (read: absolute practical necessity) that our heroes switch off the program only in such situations and not when they are separated by a virtual mile or three.

So the idea that the holodeck gives each user his own little sub-holodeck to play with, and only merges those when the users are clustered close together, is still perfectly supportable.

Indeed, the holodeck is probably one of the most mundane and easily explained pieces of TNG era technology, from the post-1980s viewpoint anyway... It's just the habits, customs and mores relating to holodeck use in that era that are truly exotic and alien to us.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[William Wallace]

Yet when Picard, Data, and Barclay finally end the program, none of them disappear; they're still standing in the same spot relative to each other.

But only if that's possible in the physical confines of the switched-off holodeck.

There's no need to create false images in such situations, obviously. And it's just by sheer chance (read: absolute practical necessity) that our heroes switch off the program only in such situations and not when they are separated by a virtual mile or three.

So the idea that the holodeck gives each user his own little sub-holodeck to play with, and only merges those when the users are clustered close together, is still perfectly supportable.

Indeed, the holodeck is probably one of the most mundane and easily explained pieces of TNG era technology, from the post-1980s viewpoint anyway... It's just the habits, customs and mores relating to holodeck use in that era that are truly exotic and alien to us.

Timo Saloniemi

So how would that work when they move around in a room bigger than the holodeck? For example, when Data throws his combadge into the wall to reveal its existence, what would happen if he tried to simply walk into the wall? In order to preserve the "illusion" of a bigger room, wouldn't the holodeck have to supply Data and Picard each with a completely different set of holograms? How can you do that without nothing but air separating them?

 

[AviTrek]

Yet when Picard, Data, and Barclay finally end the program, none of them disappear; they're still standing in the same spot relative to each other.

But only if that's possible in the physical confines of the switched-off holodeck.

There's no need to create false images in such situations, obviously. And it's just by sheer chance (read: absolute practical necessity) that our heroes switch off the program only in such situations and not when they are separated by a virtual mile or three.

So the idea that the holodeck gives each user his own little sub-holodeck to play with, and only merges those when the users are clustered close together, is still perfectly supportable.

Indeed, the holodeck is probably one of the most mundane and easily explained pieces of TNG era technology, from the post-1980s viewpoint anyway... It's just the habits, customs and mores relating to holodeck use in that era that are truly exotic and alien to us.

Timo Saloniemi

So how would that work when they move around in a room bigger than the holodeck? For example, when Data throws his combadge into the wall to reveal its existence, what would happen if he tried to simply walk into the wall? In order to preserve the "illusion" of a bigger room, wouldn't the holodeck have to supply Data and Picard each with a completely different set of holograms? How can you do that without nothing but air separating them?

When Data tried to walk into the wall he would be walking on a holographic treadmill so he didn't move. If it was necessary to increase the distance between Data and Riker(not Picard), Riker would be moved backwards on a similar treadmill. At some point a holographic wall would be added between them so that Data could look like he was moving further away from Riker than the total space of the holodeck.

Could you come up with a complicated multi-user choreographed movement that would break the holodeck? Maybe. But in 99% of normal use cases there are no issues.

 

[SonicRanger]

The answer is found in our first introduction to the holodeck:

PART SEVEN
FADE IN:141 EXT. PARKLAND - RIKER AND DATA

We HEAR A VOICE (Wesley) and Riker gets to his feet, looks off in that direction.

DATA
This pattern is quite popular, sir. Perhaps because it duplicates Earth so well, Coming here, (apologetically) makes me feel as if I'm human too.

RIKER(taking it all in)
I didn't believe these could be so real.

DATA
Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an energy beam, then back to the original pattern again...

RIKER
Yes, of course. (indicates) And all these have much simpler patterns.

 

[William Wallace]

But only if that's possible in the physical confines of the switched-off holodeck.

There's no need to create false images in such situations, obviously. And it's just by sheer chance (read: absolute practical necessity) that our heroes switch off the program only in such situations and not when they are separated by a virtual mile or three.

So the idea that the holodeck gives each user his own little sub-holodeck to play with, and only merges those when the users are clustered close together, is still perfectly supportable.

Indeed, the holodeck is probably one of the most mundane and easily explained pieces of TNG era technology, from the post-1980s viewpoint anyway... It's just the habits, customs and mores relating to holodeck use in that era that are truly exotic and alien to us.

Timo Saloniemi

So how would that work when they move around in a room bigger than the holodeck? For example, when Data throws his combadge into the wall to reveal its existence, what would happen if he tried to simply walk into the wall? In order to preserve the "illusion" of a bigger room, wouldn't the holodeck have to supply Data and Picard each with a completely different set of holograms? How can you do that without nothing but air separating them?

When Data tried to walk into the wall he would be walking on a holographic treadmill so he didn't move. If it was necessary to increase the distance between Data and Riker(not Picard), Riker would be moved backwards on a similar treadmill. At some point a holographic wall would be added between them so that Data could look like he was moving further away from Riker than the total space of the holodeck.

Could you come up with a complicated multi-user choreographed movement that would break the holodeck? Maybe. But in 99% of normal use cases there are no issues.

Slight problem with that: holograms don't instantly appear and disappear, they take a fraction of a second to fade in and out (as seen in every holodeck program in every Star Trek episode in existence). If Picard's view of Data suddenly switched from the real Data to a holographic projection of him, that would be noticeable (and yes, it's Picard in the room with Data when he throws his combadge against the holodeck's wall. Not sure where you're getting Riker from).

And there's another problem. If the "floor" (which supposedly is actually a forcefield) suddenly switches from stationary (with the people moving) to "treadmill" mode (with the people not moving), wouldn't that be noticeable? If you're walking along a giant treadmill that's stationary, and it suddenly starts moving, you'll easily notice the change, and probably trip and fall.

 

[Timo]

Naah, holographic projections are immediate when they need to be. Whenever an extensive holosimulation is being run, new features emerge from behind the corners without delay. Only when the holodeck wants to make it crystal clear to the operator that something emerging is a hologram does it create a wavy "emergence" effect. Otherwise, things just flash in and out.

It's not a technique confined to holodecks, either. It's considered a cheap parlor trick when the con artists in "Devil's Due" performs it in a random room on a primitive planet, or on the bridge of Picard's ship. Not much of a feat, really.

(And it's Riker with Data when the wall-revealing throw is made in "Encounter at Farpoint". And there's no "room" there, there's an illusory garden.)

Movement in the Trek universe isn't noticeable, either. Inertial manipulation, remember? Conversely, a person at complete standstill can be made to believe he is falling down a cliff or being taken on a roller-coaster run. This quite regardless of whether the starship the holodeck is on is at standstill, or undergoing combat maneuvers.

And all of the above comes on top of the user wanting to believe. We accept TV and movies as pseudo-reality despite their 2D nature and other unreal qualities. Our brains probably won't be able to tell simulation from reality even if immersed inside the supposedly "primitive" holodeck of "Encounter at Farpoint" - let alone the improved specimen our very heroes were impressed with in "11001001".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[AviTrek]

So how would that work when they move around in a room bigger than the holodeck? For example, when Data throws his combadge into the wall to reveal its existence, what would happen if he tried to simply walk into the wall? In order to preserve the "illusion" of a bigger room, wouldn't the holodeck have to supply Data and Picard each with a completely different set of holograms? How can you do that without nothing but air separating them?

When Data tried to walk into the wall he would be walking on a holographic treadmill so he didn't move. If it was necessary to increase the distance between Data and Riker(not Picard), Riker would be moved backwards on a similar treadmill. At some point a holographic wall would be added between them so that Data could look like he was moving further away from Riker than the total space of the holodeck.

Could you come up with a complicated multi-user choreographed movement that would break the holodeck? Maybe. But in 99% of normal use cases there are no issues.

Slight problem with that: holograms don't instantly appear and disappear, they take a fraction of a second to fade in and out (as seen in every holodeck program in every Star Trek episode in existence). If Picard's view of Data suddenly switched from the real Data to a holographic projection of him, that would be noticeable (and yes, it's Picard in the room with Data when he throws his combadge against the holodeck's wall. Not sure where you're getting Riker from).

And there's another problem. If the "floor" (which supposedly is actually a forcefield) suddenly switches from stationary (with the people moving) to "treadmill" mode (with the people not moving), wouldn't that be noticeable? If you're walking along a giant treadmill that's stationary, and it suddenly starts moving, you'll easily notice the change, and probably trip and fall.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x02/farpoint2_062.jpg

It's Riker. Picard meets Riker, Data, and Wesley as they're walking out of the holodeck and gives Wesley a look because he's dripping holographic water onto the floor.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x02/farpoint2_068.jpg

 

[William Wallace]

Naah, holographic projections are immediate when they need to be. Whenever an extensive holosimulation is being run, new features emerge from behind the corners without delay. Only when the holodeck wants to make it crystal clear to the operator that something emerging is a hologram does it create a wavy "emergence" effect. Otherwise, things just flash in and out.

It's not a technique confined to holodecks, either. It's considered a cheap parlor trick when the con artists in "Devil's Due" performs it in a random room on a primitive planet, or on the bridge of Picard's ship. Not much of a feat, really.

If emergence effects only happen when the holodeck wants to show them, then why does Moriarty "fade" in when he's alone in the holodeck, after Barclay leaves? Come on, admit it, they never explained any of this holodeck trickery, you're just ad-libbing to cover things the writers overlooked.

(And it's Riker with Data when the wall-revealing throw is made in "Encounter at Farpoint". And there's no "room" there, there's an illusory garden.)

I was referring to "Ship in a Bottle" when Data throws his combadge into the holodeck wall, not "Farpoint" when he throws a (simulated) rock.

But that brings up another point. In "Farpoint", when Data throws the rock at the wall, doesn't he say something like "we're right next to the wall" just before throwing the rock, indicating that he knows exactly where in the holodeck he is? Doesn't this imply that he can differentiate between holograms and reality, in ways that humans can't? So how does he get fooled by Moriarty's simulated Enterprise in Ship in a Bottle?

Movement in the Trek universe isn't noticeable, either. Inertial manipulation, remember? Conversely, a person at complete standstill can be made to believe he is falling down a cliff or being taken on a roller-coaster run. This quite regardless of whether the starship the holodeck is on is at standstill, or undergoing combat maneuvers.

Again with the ad-libbing. Since when does the holodeck have individual, localized inertial dampers? I don't remember that being established in any Star Trek program...

 

[UssGlenn]

[Come on, admit it, they never explained any of this holodeck trickery, you're just ad-libbing to cover things the writers overlooked.

Oh, for Pete's sake, Finding ways to cover what the writers didn't is nearly the entire purpose of this bulletin board. You either want to make it work or you don't. And if you are bound and determined to shoot down every reasonable argument on how it works then there's not much point to talking about it.

 

[David cgc]

Could you come up with a complicated multi-user choreographed movement that would break the holodeck? Maybe. But in 99% of normal use cases there are no issues.

In one of the Shatner novels, Kirk and Spock did that very thing to escape a holographic jail cell (after Kirk walking around and Spock explaining all about the force-field treadmills and light tricks that make him look farther away than he is, essentially narrating the diagrams from the TNG tech manual). Spock kneels down and Kirk takes a running jump towards him, so Spock can pick him up and give him a boost over the treadmill area so he ends up against the wall and can then feel his way to the arch.

 

[Timo]

you're just ad-libbing to cover things the writers overlooked.

But that's what the holodeck is designed to do, too. It's the ultimate ad-lib machine, always bending over backwards to please the user.

Moriarty is an entity who would want to fade in. But Sherlock Holmes' lair does not fade in. It flashes in, and it flashes out. Or it freezes (but in a user-friendly way, so that the fireplace keeps on crackling...). All of this is a trivial feat for treknology, and in no way unrealistic even in terms of real world physics.

Doesn't this imply that he can differentiate between holograms and reality, in ways that humans can't? So how does he get fooled by Moriarty's simulated Enterprise in Ship in a Bottle?

Improved simulation? "11001001" makes it clear that there was a technological improvement in 2363-64. Perhaps the Bynars added several parameters that the average humanoid user won't notice, the clever android will, and the holodeck machinery always could produce if bothered - say, extra wavelength range to the visuals, a bit of added precision to the kinetics, fewer clumsy "edits" (hidden from the audience because we watched an edited version anyway). All of those would be accomplished by the standard Bynar schtick, by increasing computing power.

Although I'm willing to bet that users other than Data also get a kick out of having the holodeck spray them with suitable chemicals to lower their expectations and make disbelief easier to suspend. (And come to think of it, Data is susceptible to things like alcohol, too...)

Since when does the holodeck have individual, localized inertial dampers? I don't remember that being established in any Star Trek program...

Every single spot in the ship obviously has those. After all, we have witnessed localized failures of artificial gravity, erratic behavior of turbolift inertia control, etc. It's a very safe assumption that this ubiquitous treknology is being applied to the hilt in this natural application.

To argue that a character in Star Trek should feel movement is the losing bet, because that never happens. Not unless there is an equipment failure or overload. That is explicit in virtually every episode and movie ever filmed.

...a boost over the treadmill area...

Have I ever mentioned how I hate the Reeves-Stevens writing? Those folks do the exact same thing we do here at the forum, when they should instead be writing entertainment!

It sounds dubious that the treadmill effect would only be limited to a specific "area". Rather, the computer should keep the inertia tamperers focused on the entire volume of the user, no matter where he is and what he does...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Ah ha!

As Moriarty was created to be able to defeat Data, it makes perfect sense that he would be able to modify the Holodeck or take advantage of its capabilities (or the ship's, in fact) to overcome Data's enhanced perceptions.

 

[William Wallace]

[Come on, admit it, they never explained any of this holodeck trickery, you're just ad-libbing to cover things the writers overlooked.

Oh, for Pete's sake, Finding ways to cover what the writers didn't is nearly the entire purpose of this bulletin board. You either want to make it work or you don't. And if you are bound and determined to shoot down every reasonable argument on how it works then there's not much point to talking about it.

Yeah, well, you still have to make it consistent with the established Trek universe. For example, consider the episode "The Next Phase" (where Geordi and Ro become invisible and can walk through walls). The first question every nitpick asks is "why don't they fall through the floor?" If you tried to explain that by saying "well, every floor on every deck on the Enterprise is actually made up of an energy force field", that would be BS, because it's not supported by any Trek episode or literature. The more out-of-left-field an explanation is, the more support it needs to sound plausible.

But that's what the holodeck is designed to do, too. It's the ultimate ad-lib machine, always bending over backwards to please the user.

Moriarty is an entity who would want to fade in. But Sherlock Holmes' lair does not fade in. It flashes in, and it flashes out. Or it freezes (but in a user-friendly way, so that the fireplace keeps on crackling...). All of this is a trivial feat for treknology, and in no way unrealistic even in terms of real world physics.

When does Holmes' lair flash in and out? Isn't it usually already there before people enter the holodeck?

Improved simulation? "11001001" makes it clear that there was a technological improvement in 2363-64. Perhaps the Bynars added several parameters that the average humanoid user won't notice, the clever android will, and the holodeck machinery always could produce if bothered - say, extra wavelength range to the visuals, a bit of added precision to the kinetics, fewer clumsy "edits" (hidden from the audience because we watched an edited version anyway). All of those would be accomplished by the standard Bynar schtick, by increasing computing power.

Although I'm willing to bet that users other than Data also get a kick out of having the holodeck spray them with suitable chemicals to lower their expectations and make disbelief easier to suspend. (And come to think of it, Data is susceptible to things like alcohol, too...)

But wasn't the point of the holodeck's "enhancements" to keep Riker occupied while they stole the ship? Why would the Binars bother to add a bunch of things that Riker wouldn't notice anyway?

Besides, how could messing with the computer affect the holographic emitters anyway? I can mess with my car's computer all day long, but it's not gonna go make it go any faster unless I take out the engine and put in a better one.

Every single spot in the ship obviously has those. After all, we have witnessed localized failures of artificial gravity, erratic behavior of turbolift inertia control, etc. It's a very safe assumption that this ubiquitous treknology is being applied to the hilt in this natural application.

To argue that a character in Star Trek should feel movement is the losing bet, because that never happens. Not unless there is an equipment failure or overload. That is explicit in virtually every episode and movie ever filmed.

Well for one thing, it's never mentioned anywhere (including the TNG technical manual) that the holodeck has inertial dampers to enhance the simulations . For another, details of how dampers work is never explained (they'd have to ignore the laws of physics). For instance, what would happen if you jumped 3 feet forward, while standing in front of one of the holodeck's walls? You would have to feel the deceleration when you landed (stopping your forward momentum), but if the floor didn't move, it wouldn't feel the same. Yes, I realize I'm getting really nitpicky here, but when an entire episode is centered around people getting fooled by a holodeck simulation, these kinds of details are need to make it believable.

Ah ha!

As Moriarty was created to be able to defeat Data, it makes perfect sense that he would be able to modify the Holodeck or take advantage of its capabilities (or the ship's, in fact) to overcome Data's enhanced perceptions.

So if Moriarty is so smart, why does he get fooled into thinking he got beamed off the holodeck, when he's in fact still on the holodeck? Wasn't he in control of the holodeck the entire time? Doesn't he steal Picard's command codes as soon as he gives them to the (simulated) computer console? Isn't he already watching Picard's every move? Shouldn't he be fully aware of the ruse Picard & crew are trying to pull on him?

For that matter, hasn't Moriarty also hijacked the communication system, so that no one can contact anyone outside the holodeck? How does Picard get access to the com system in order to trick Moriarty into setting up the "fake" transport with the "fake" Riker?

 

[DonIago]

Bored now.

 

[Qew]

Wasn't there that episode where the two holodeck characters left the holodeck and they slowly dissolved from the bottom up? I'm guessing there's a slight spillover area right in front of the holodeck doors. So something like the snowball that Wesley threw could still hit Picard since he was standing at that threshold.

It's been clearly stated that the costumes that they wear on the holodeck are replicated. The Captain Proton costom for Tom Paris, and the Victorian dresses that Janeway wore were replicated.

 

[Qew]

[Come on, admit it, they never explained any of this holodeck trickery, you're just ad-libbing to cover things the writers overlooked.

Oh, for Pete's sake, Finding ways to cover what the writers didn't is nearly the entire purpose of this bulletin board. You either want to make it work or you don't. And if you are bound and determined to shoot down every reasonable argument on how it works then there's not much point to talking about it.

Yeah, well, you still have to make it consistent with the established Trek universe. For example, consider the episode "The Next Phase" (where Geordi and Ro become invisible and can walk through walls). The first question every nitpick asks is "why don't they fall through the floor?" If you tried to explain that by saying "well, every floor on every deck on the Enterprise is actually made up of an energy force field", that would be BS, because it's not supported by any Trek episode or literature. The more out-of-left-field an explanation is, the more support it needs to sound plausible.



When does Holmes' lair flash in and out? Isn't it usually already there before people enter the holodeck?



But wasn't the point of the holodeck's "enhancements" to keep Riker occupied while they stole the ship? Why would the Binars bother to add a bunch of things that Riker wouldn't notice anyway?

The Binars felt they needed to make Minuet as alluring as possible to keep Riker occupied for the entire trip to the Binar home world which takes many hours. A "normal" hologram might not have achieved that result, and as the Binars themselves said is that they wanted to take "no chances of failure".

Besides, how could messing with the computer affect the holographic emitters anyway? I can mess with my car's computer all day long, but it's not gonna go make it go any faster unless I take out the engine and put in a better one.

The computers control almost every aspect of ship functions, Data (or was it Geordi) said something like around 90% of the ships functions are automated. In many episodes computer and power problems can affect many functions on a starship including the holodeck.

Every single spot in the ship obviously has those. After all, we have witnessed localized failures of artificial gravity, erratic behavior of turbolift inertia control, etc. It's a very safe assumption that this ubiquitous treknology is being applied to the hilt in this natural application.

To argue that a character in Star Trek should feel movement is the losing bet, because that never happens. Not unless there is an equipment failure or overload. That is explicit in virtually every episode and movie ever filmed.

Well for one thing, it's never mentioned anywhere (including the TNG technical manual) that the holodeck has inertial dampers to enhance the simulations . For another, details of how dampers work is never explained (they'd have to ignore the laws of physics). For instance, what would happen if you jumped 3 feet forward, while standing in front of one of the holodeck's walls? You would have to feel the deceleration when you landed (stopping your forward momentum), but if the floor didn't move, it wouldn't feel the same. Yes, I realize I'm getting really nitpicky here, but when an entire episode is centered around people getting fooled by a holodeck simulation, these kinds of details are need to make it believable.

Ah ha!

As Moriarty was created to be able to defeat Data, it makes perfect sense that he would be able to modify the Holodeck or take advantage of its capabilities (or the ship's, in fact) to overcome Data's enhanced perceptions.

So if Moriarty is so smart, why does he get fooled into thinking he got beamed off the holodeck, when he's in fact still on the holodeck? Wasn't he in control of the holodeck the entire time? Doesn't he steal Picard's command codes as soon as he gives them to the (simulated) computer console? Isn't he already watching Picard's every move? Shouldn't he be fully aware of the ruse Picard & crew are trying to pull on him?

For that matter, hasn't Moriarty also hijacked the communication system, so that no one can contact anyone outside the holodeck? How does Picard get access to the com system in order to trick Moriarty into setting up the "fake" transport with the "fake" Riker?

Moriarty had the access and information however just having the information doesn't mean you fully understand it. Moriarty had to "decipher" the information into some kind of way that HE could understand it being a Sherlock Holmes character. Of course as time went by this integration became more and more easier which he stated himself. While Moriarty may have hijacked the comm system or have access to the ships sensors he wouldn't know how block access, or understand how sensors worked.

 

[William Wallace]

The Binars felt they needed to make Minuet as alluring as possible to keep Riker occupied for the entire trip to the Binar home world which takes many hours. A "normal" hologram might not have achieved that result, and as the Binars themselves said is that they wanted to take "no chances of failure".

Why not just trap him in the holodeck with a force field then, or disable the "exit" feature for a few hours? That seems a lot less risky (and less failure-prone) than overhauling the holo-emitters to make holograms so detailed, that not even Data can tell the difference anymore

The computers control almost every aspect of ship functions, Data (or was it Geordi) said something like around 90% of the ships functions are automated. In many episodes computer and power problems can affect many functions on a starship including the holodeck.

In modern cars, a computer controls almost all of its functions, too. To make your car faster, you need a new engine, not new computers.

Moriarty had the access and information however just having the information doesn't mean you fully understand it. Moriarty had to "decipher" the information into some kind of way that HE could understand it being a Sherlock Holmes character. Of course as time went by this integration became more and more easier which he stated himself. While Moriarty may have hijacked the comm system or have access to the ships sensors he wouldn't know how block access, or understand how sensors worked.

Yeah, it's still hard to swallow that someone with complete control of the holodeck doesn't know when he's talking to a hologram, or that after instantly stealing Picard's command codes as soon as he enters them into the fake computer, Moriarty doesn't catch on when Picard uses another fake computer to try and bamboozle him.

 

[Timo]

Yes, I realize I'm getting really nitpicky here, but when an entire episode is centered around people getting fooled by a holodeck simulation, these kinds of details are need to make it believable.

Why? Trek has never mentioned anything that would make it unbelievable, either. We know that

a) holodecks aim to create satisfactory simulations for the user
b) holodecks utilize the best in 24th century technology for that

We also know that this technology allows the Feds to completely master things like gravity and inertia. We further know what transporters and replicators are capable of. In view of this, it's not only plausible that the simulations would be convincing - it's a tad implausible that, during the first season of TNG at least, they would not be completely convincing!

If you tried to explain that by saying "well, every floor on every deck on the Enterprise is actually made up of an energy force field", that would be BS, because it's not supported by any Trek episode or literature.

But it is - we know for an observable fact that every deck and indeed every room aboard a starship has its own gravity net in the floor. This allows said rooms to independently adjust their gravity. Nothing of the sort is required of the walls, OTOH. So it's a pretty natural thing to assume that (artificial) gravity keeps our heroes from sinking through the floor.

...After all, people on Deck 1 don't feel the collective pull of Decks 2 through 42. They only feel the pull of Deck 1. And the people down on Deck 2 don't feel the upward pull of Deck 1. So clearly there are "cancelling fields" involved there, reverse lobes, whatnot. After sinking through the floor by 1 cm (something we can't see and thus can't deny), LaForge would hit the reverse lobe and be sustained.

It's something that flows quite naturally from the established treknology, and in this particular case from canonical onscreen treknology rather than Tech Manual speculation.

Yeah, it's still hard to swallow that someone with complete control of the holodeck doesn't know when he's talking to a hologram, or that after instantly stealing Picard's command codes as soon as he enters them into the fake computer, Moriarty doesn't catch on when Picard uses another fake computer to try and bamboozle him.

Let's remember here that Moriarty is striving hard to become "real". He's fed up with being a computer-generated ghost. So it's actually quite unlikely that he would exploit his "computational resources" to the fullest in maneuvering against Picard. Not only is it realistic but also fitting that he falls victim of his own tricks, then: he tries hard to become Picard, while Picard takes a lesson from him and becomes Moriarty for a moment.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[William Wallace]

Yes, I realize I'm getting really nitpicky here, but when an entire episode is centered around people getting fooled by a holodeck simulation, these kinds of details are need to make it believable.

Why? Trek has never mentioned anything that would make it unbelievable, either. We know that

a) holodecks aim to create satisfactory simulations for the user
b) holodecks utilize the best in 24th century technology for that

We also know that this technology allows the Feds to completely master things like gravity and inertia. We further know what transporters and replicators are capable of. In view of this, it's not only plausible that the simulations would be convincing - it's a tad implausible that, during the first season of TNG at least, they would not be completely convincing!

But look how many ad-hoc assumptions you need to make it all work, that were never exlained in the show. How do you walk around simulated room that's bigger than the actual holodeck? Oh, it projects a holographic wall behind you, then projects a holographic image onto the holographic wall, so you don't actually see the other people in the room. How do the holograms fool Data, when they didn't before? Oh, that's because the Binars must enhanced them. I'm just saying that's pretty thin.

If you tried to explain that by saying "well, every floor on every deck on the Enterprise is actually made up of an energy force field", that would be BS, because it's not supported by any Trek episode or literature.

But it is - we know for an observable fact that every deck and indeed every room aboard a starship has its own gravity net in the floor. This allows said rooms to independently adjust their gravity. Nothing of the sort is required of the walls, OTOH. So it's a pretty natural thing to assume that (artificial) gravity keeps our heroes from sinking through the floor.

...After all, people on Deck 1 don't feel the collective pull of Decks 2 through 42. They only feel the pull of Deck 1. And the people down on Deck 2 don't feel the upward pull of Deck 1. So clearly there are "cancelling fields" involved there, reverse lobes, whatnot. After sinking through the floor by 1 cm (something we can't see and thus can't deny), LaForge would hit the reverse lobe and be sustained.

It's something that flows quite naturally from the established treknology, and in this particular case from canonical onscreen treknology rather than Tech Manual speculation.

And they wouldn't notice the difference between standing on a solid floor, and hovering over a massless gravity field? Very thin.

Yeah, it's still hard to swallow that someone with complete control of the holodeck doesn't know when he's talking to a hologram, or that after instantly stealing Picard's command codes as soon as he enters them into the fake computer, Moriarty doesn't catch on when Picard uses another fake computer to try and bamboozle him.

Let's remember here that Moriarty is striving hard to become "real". He's fed up with being a computer-generated ghost. So it's actually quite unlikely that he would exploit his "computational resources" to the fullest in maneuvering against Picard. Not only is it realistic but also fitting that he falls victim of his own tricks, then: he tries hard to become Picard, while Picard takes a lesson from him and becomes Moriarty for a moment.

Timo Saloniemi

What else does he have to use his computational resources on? All he has to do is watch Picard and talk to Riker, and he fails at both, since Picard sets up the ruse behind his back, and Riker's just a hologram, created by Picard.

 

[DonIago]

Why would the show take the time to do an exposition dump about the holodeck? Most viewers wouldn't care, and it would take away from whatever the actual plot of the episode was.