Shinzon
- Thread starter BillJ
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See "Twilight's Wrath" by David Mack in Tales from the Dominion War. The deleted scenes from the film also provide a bit more exposition about why the Romulan military backed his coup.
"Twilight's Wrath" goes a long way in making Shinzon a more interesting character than he was in Nemesis.
I think I should give Nemesis another try now that I've seen Tom Hardy excel in so many other flms. I wonder how I'll take Shizon now.
I think I should give Nemesis another try now that I've seen Tom Hardy excel in so many other flms. I wonder how I'll take Shizon now.
Who said they were xenophobic? I checked the transcript -- the word "xenophobic" or "xenophobia" never appears in the film. Nor does the film say they were bred for war -- simply that they were used as warriors, or more accurately cannon fodder, by the Romulans, much as the Roman Empire used barbarians or the British Empire used South Asian soldiers, as disposable frontline troops.
The film actualy explained it quite clearly. The Remans were a subordinate people, oppressed and enslaved by the Romulans. Shinzon was also oppressed -- exiled to Remus and forced to work in the mines alongside the Remans, treated the same as the Remans. There was no reason why the Remans would hate him. It was the Romulans they hated. They took in Shinzon as one of their own because they were in the same straits and had a common enemy. He grew up among them and came to think of himself as one of them. And since he was genetically Jean-Luc Picard, he was a natural leader, and so he rose to a leadership position among his Reman "brothers." He also distinguished himself in combat in the Dominion War, earning the respect of the Romulan military. So of course the Remans would see him as someone who could offer them hope, someone who was Reman by culture and residence but who had the respect of the Romulans and thus had the potential to bring about change and improve the Remans' status in the empire.
Really, it's all right there in the movie's dialogue. I've given you a link to the transcript, so you can read for yourself.
Well, that's rhetoric, not necessarily a scientifically or historically accurate statement. I mean, obviously the Remans were not bred for conquest, since they're the slaves of the Romulans, so Shinzon is clearly expressing his ideal, or stating the ideology that he wants his followers to buy into, rather than offering an objective statement of fact.
That's the scene where I get by calling them xenophobic. It's really the only thing that explains their, "We're free from our former oppressors, now we're gonna fight and destroy THEIR enemies" bit.
And it no, that really doesn't explain why Shinzon would be their leader. Yes they hate the Romulans and Shinzon was abused by them. They took him in, but just because they protect and shelter him doesn't mean they're ready to hand over the reigns of power.
The story arc of Shinzon's humanity would have been a lot more compelling if he was a lackey of the Remans, that Viceroy in particular and Picard was the first example he saw of a different life as opposed to the Reman way.
And it no, that really doesn't explain why Shinzon would be their leader. Yes they hate the Romulans and Shinzon was abused by them. They took him in, but just because they protect and shelter him doesn't mean they're ready to hand over the reigns of power.
The story arc of Shinzon's humanity would have been a lot more compelling if he was a lackey of the Remans, that Viceroy in particular and Picard was the first example he saw of a different life as opposed to the Reman way.
They took over Romulus. That's a much more satisfying victory than exterminating Romulan people in pointless revenge.
The Remans aren't xenophobic. The Romulans aren't as xenophobic as some fans seem to believe, either - the the half-human Sela was a Commander in the Romulan military. The Romulan military followed Shinzon and his Reman group.
They didn't hand him anything. Shinzon proved himself during the Dominion War and earned the rank of Commander. THAT is why they followed him. Not because they pitied him as a child. Because he grew to be a great leader - just like Picard.
See, here you're mistaking Shinzon's words and agendas for those of the Remans. He may identify himself with them, but he's still an individual. And really, the whole point of his arc is that, while he wins the loyalty of the Remans and the Romulan military by convincing them that he shares their agendas, once he's in power he turns out to have his own far more personal agenda that's against the best interests of his supporters. Basically, he lied to his supporters to get into office and then broke his campaign promises once he'd achieved that goal. Is it so hard to believe a politician could do that?
Shinzon's attack on Earth was NOT motivated by Reman nationalism. It was all about his own daddy issues, like everything else he did. He was a clone of Picard, a flawed copy who couldn't survive without killing the original. And more than that, he resented the fact that Picard had achieved such great success and galactic renown while Shinzon, his exact genetic duplicate, had been forced to live in slavery and despair. That resentment made him feel he not only had to kill Picard, but to overshadow him, to undo Picard's work. Picard had gained fame by protecting the Federation and saving the Earth, so Shinzon would tear down that legacy by destroying the Earth. "And as Earth dies, remember that I will always, forever, be Shinzon of Remus! And my voice shall echo through time long after yours has faded to a dim memory."
He's their leader because he's Jean-Luc Picard! Although his different upbringing twisted him, he has the same genetic potential -- the same intelligence, the same charisma, the same qualities that let Picard grow into a great leader. But Shinzon is a twisted reflection, so while Picard used those qualities to lead constructively and serve the greater good, Shinzon used them in service to bitterness and revenge. He won the Remans' loyalty with his -- with Picard's -- charisma and brains and skills, but he ultimately used the Remans to serve his own petty agendas.
But that wouldn't make him a reflection of Picard. The thematic point of Shinzon's existence was to explore the question of nature versus nurture -- what qualities of a person are their innate destiny, and what qualities are shaped by their experience? Shinzon believed he and Picard were exactly the same, which was why he resented the fact that Picard's life was so much better than his. Picard understood that genes were not destiny, that whatever their shared potential, Shinzon had turned out worse because he used genetics as an excuse, because he didn't take responsibility for his own self-improvement as Picard had. They both had the same capacity for leadership and greatness, but Picard took responsibility for making himself better while Shinzon made excuses for being cruel and destructive. And so the same leadership potential that turned out so well in Picard turned out to be cataclysmic in Shinzon.
I think the mistake you're making is to think about it as a story about race -- these people are Remans and this person is human. That was never what Nemesis was about. It wasn't about human vs. Reman, it was about Picard vs. Picard, nature vs. nurture. The identity conflict that the movie was exploring was not about racial identity at all. It was about what kind of man Picard would have been if he'd grown up in the worst possible circumstances. The Remans served that story because Picard would still be a leader in any case, and so Shinzon needed a people he could lead.
I still think Nemesis was a good movie, just with a couple of major flaws.
The thing which has always struck me about Nemesis (which I liked better on subsequent viewings) was that it was somehow less than the sum of its parts. Good performances, a few good sequences, good ideas ... just not coming together very well as a good movie.
I've always really liked Nemesis. It got me into Trek again when I'd really stopped caring. Then a few years later I came online and was somewhat suprised to find everyone treats it like the plague. I've never had popular tastes, but it was a real "Huh?"
moment.
moment.
I like Nemesis for all its many flaws. I think two major issues for non-Trek moviegoers might have been: dark pessimistic tone, and very tired-looking main cast, which overall made the film a bit of a downer. I agree with Christopher as well that line about bred for war just felt like rhetoric. The Remans reminded me of Spartans, perhaps more hardened than genetically-bred for war.
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