"She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

[Timo]

One might argue that the respective repairs of the two ships once again showed the value of experience. Khan got his auxiliary power fully back, apparently making his ship the superior impulse combatant. But Spock and Scotty went instead for partial main power, meaning that their ship had at least limited warp capability where Khan had none. And that saved their asses in the end.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[diankra]

Remember that Reliant had taken a few phaser hits while phaser lock was inoperative. Enterprise, on the other hand, had taken multiple phaser hits, with Reliant's phaser lock operational, not to mention a photon torpedo. She may have fended off Khan's surprise attack, but it was a pyrhic (I just KNOW I spelled that wrong) victory. Yes, Enterprise was okay for now, but Reliant was not destroyed in the counter attack.

Picky mode on, but that's really not a pyrrhic victory anyway... if Reliant had been destroyed by Kirk's prefix code trick attack, but Enterprise was already so badly damaged that they couldn't restore power and life support before the crew died... then that would be a text book pyrrhic victory.
Picky mode off!

 

[swaaye]

The Ent had only partial impulse power and little if any warp reactor power when Spock said the line. Reliant seemed to be basically fully functional yet.

So it's just all guessing as to what Spock meant, but I doubt either ship had a completely decisive advantage when both were in peak condition. They were from the same era after all and Ent was a beefy heavy cruiser.

The nebula completely saved the day for Kirk and gang IMO. Once Kirk spent the wild card of the prefix codes, I think Ent was done for in open space where Khan could easily unload on crippled Ent.

 

[Timo]

Khan's crew weren't complete klutzes when it came to repairs. Joachim said that Kirk's initial shots knocked out "warp drive" and "photon controls"; we never heard them recover warp drive, but we do see that they can once again fire photon torpedoes in the second battle, suggesting that "photon controls" were indeed repaired. Whether the repairs were successful is another question: the warning shot that was supposed to prevent Kirk from entering the nebula did not succeed, and the aft torp that was supposed to hit Kirk in the nebula did not. But even fully functional "photon controls" might have produced those results in those conditions...

It does seem plausible that Joachim would repair the torpedo systems first, in anticipation of a battle with the "will go nowhere" Enterprise, and would save warp drive repairs for later. And Joachim's triumphant "Auxiliary power restored!" does suggest to me that primary power was not restored.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Jack Riley]

Remember that Reliant had taken a few phaser hits while phaser lock was inoperative. Enterprise, on the other hand, had taken multiple phaser hits, with Reliant's phaser lock operational, not to mention a photon torpedo. She may have fended off Khan's surprise attack, but it was a pyrhic (I just KNOW I spelled that wrong) victory. Yes, Enterprise was okay for now, but Reliant was not destroyed in the counter attack.

Picky mode on, but that's really not a pyrrhic victory anyway... if Reliant had been destroyed by Kirk's prefix code trick attack, but Enterprise was already so badly damaged that they couldn't restore power and life support before the crew died... then that would be a text book pyrrhic victory.
Picky mode off!

Dang it!!! You are absolutely correct. Poor analogy on my part. Thanks for the correction.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I think it's believed because the Saratoga had no torpedo launchers...

Actually, Saratoga HAD torpedo bays. The Vulcan Captain ordered them loaded just as they went into battle.

 

[Praetor]

Which makes you wonder where they were...

 

[Timo]

One might argue that there are torpedo bays in the saucers of all those ships that resemble the refitted NCC-1701. After all, that ship had saucer torpedo bays before the refit, and ST2:TWoK had set decorations suggestive of four, not two, bays...

The saucer bays could be of lower caliber and lesser destructive power than the neck ones; they might hide behind some of the numerous hatches on the underside of that saucer type, or then they might reside in the boxy ventral structures surrounding the lower sensor dome.

OTOH, one might say that the fancy side sponsons of the Saratoga housed some torpedo bays, perhaps in the admittedly very short horizontal pylons.

OTTH, perhaps the Vulcan captain was a senile old fool and the ship had no torpedo bays.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

Or, more simply, the dialog didn't match the VFX, yet again...

 

[Praetor]

I don't know... I like the idea of the 1701 refit and any other ship based on the basic concept/frame of the saucer having 'vestigial' low-power ventral saucer torpedo launchers that we didn't see used. Perhaps post-refit they became primarily probe launchers.

Regarding 'Emissary's Saratoga, I imagine the real-world explanation is that the writers knew it was to be a Miranda class but did not know the model was going to be a non-rollbar variety.

 

[USS KG5]

Or, more simply, the dialog didn't match the VFX, yet again...

Maybe not though - after all there are all kinds of different holes on modern ships that a Harpoon can come from for example.

Given that they tend to double as probe launchers I'd be surprised if any starfleet ship is without torpedoes, even if they only carry half a dozen.

 

[Praetor]

^By extension of that logic, I'd bet all ships have at least one launch tube, even if it's primarily used for probes rather than torpedoes, and even if it's not readily apparent. Outfitting a ship with torpedoes for a battle would then be viable even if the ship was not primarily intended for combat. The only limit would be the number of torps the ship could carry and the capacity and quality of the launch tube.

 

[Wingsley]

If the TOS Enterprise could house forward photon torpedo tubes in the lower tier of the saucer section in the 2260's (as we've seen numerous times), why couldn't Saratoga and others do the same? What is it about photon torpedoes in the TMP era that requires them to be fired from a separate, dedicated pod?

 

[Praetor]

I've always thought the movie era represented a new type of launcher which required more space and a special setup, because it seems silly to just arbitrarily move the torpedo launcher location from the lower saucer to the neck without a good reason.

So ships could still have the less-powerful, 'old style' torpedo launchers in the lower saucer if they were 'grandfathered in.'

 

[USS KG5]

If the TOS Enterprise could house forward photon torpedo tubes in the lower tier of the saucer section in the 2260's (as we've seen numerous times), why couldn't Saratoga and others do the same? What is it about photon torpedoes in the TMP era that requires them to be fired from a separate, dedicated pod?

Maybe they moved the torpedoes to a better location regarding storage, that thin little neck is not much good for crew quarters or spacious science labs but I bet you could keep a fair few torpedoes there, therefore freeing up the more useful area in the saucer for other things.

The Saratoga had no roll bar and therefore presumably a less capable tube was installed hidden behind a bulkhead on the lower saucer, maybe a single rather than double tube capable of firing only two torpedoes a salvo, or even just one?

 

[Praetor]

^That was no doubt part of it, too. And that's a good explanation for the Saratoga. As a science ship, it would no doubt still need to launch probes and therefore need a tube, and this might make the other rollbar-less Mirandas seem more impressive and logical.

 

[Vance]

Well, the reality is that photon torpedoes weren't made until a year AFTER the model for the Enterprise was completed. That's kinda why we got the launchers in the TMP (and Phase II) models in the first place...

 

[Praetor]

Well, yes, Mister Take-the-fun-out-of-everything Vance.

Indeed, perhaps the rethinking of photorps into having a hard capsule shell took place sooner than TWOK...

 

[caisson2delta]

There have been many good explanations to this topic already that are quite valid. I have two other possibilities as well.

1. The Enterprise had been relegated to the role of a training vessel and quite possibly wasn't up to the level of other ships on active patrol or exploratory missions. It may have been some time since it had last been overhauled or had major improvements to weapons and power systems. The primarily trainee crew wasn't as experienced and the casualties suffered limited their ability to make field repairs.

2. The Reliant, I always felt, was a ship that had been designed as a direct result of the Constitution class and it's successes, while seeing improvements in certain areas. It may not have had as powerful a warp core, for instance, or inferior shields and perhaps thicker armor to compensate. It obviously wasn't designed as a deep space explorer vessel and probably not intended to operate at such long ranges and alone for extended periods. This probably evolved into it being armed differently and the adding of the rollbar type attachments to make it more flexible in local missions or to complement armament, sensors, etc., as needed.

 

[Praetor]

caisson2delta, I don't totally agree with your post, because I think the Miranda class was not designed for the exact same mission type as the Constitution - I think there is some overlap, but I'd posit there are specific missions in mind for each that the other cannot do.

However, I do think you make two particularly good general suggestions:

1. The Enterprise may not be fully up to date in her refits/upgrades
2. The Reliant is almost certainly a newer ship (if we take the registries as chronological) and therefore may have been, at the very least, refit after the Enterprise was (assuming she wasn't built in the 'refit' style to start with) making her technology potentially more potent

Perhaps, overall, the Miranda class was capable of performing enough of the support mission profiles that the Constitution was often assigned that this explains why so many appeared to have been built while the Connies were retired? In essence, they ended up a cheaper Connie.