Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

[Shatnertage]

That's exactly why I think it's what killed Trek--episodes like this, that weren't so outrageously awful they'd have the producers firing people, but also didn't tell any kind of story that needed to be told.

Granted, Trek had mediocre episodes in all of its incarnations, but it just seems that the percentage of episodes like this kept climbing as the franchise went on. With stuff like this, you get safe, predictable, boring TV.

 

[MacLeod]

I think part of the issue was that ST reached a point in some stories that had been told before, so when you do a similar story to one that has already been told it is compared against it.

For me VOY whilst it had it's good episodes it fell into the trap of being too safe and telling stories that were being told better on other shows or had been told better.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

That's exactly why I think it's what killed Trek--episodes like this, that weren't so outrageously awful they'd have the producers firing people, but also didn't tell any kind of story that needed to be told.

Granted, Trek had mediocre episodes in all of its incarnations, but it just seems that the percentage of episodes like this kept climbing as the franchise went on. With stuff like this, you get safe, predictable, boring TV.

Season 3 episodes of DS9 and especially episodes like "Visionary" did not kill "Star Trek".

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ I think what he's saying is that episodes like this lead to the death of Star Trek. At this point in the franchise people didn't care that an episode felt like a rehash every now and then. But, as time went on, more and more episodes like this cropped up and that is what ultimately killed the franchise.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

I like good, standalone high concept episodes like "Visionary". I could watch them til the end of time to be honest.

 

[Shatnertage]

To borrow a phrase from Stringer Bell, episodes like that are 40 degree days. Not awful, but not very memorable.

I realize this is all subjective. To me, though, it seemed like the number of "40 degree" episodes started going up somewhere in Season 5 or 6 of TNG. Granted, they'd always been there, going back to TOS, but it seems like there were progressively more of them as the franchise went on.

Voyager, which I like, was about half-filled with 40-degree days. Seasons 1 & 2 of Enterprise (which I also like) were about 70% 40-degree days.

That being said, my point is that it's not anything as abstract as "franchise fatigue" that did the franchise in, but a series of stories that were just kind of...there.

From my perspective, it's the bland episodes that tempt me to stop watching. I'd rather have out-and-out farce than safe, bland TV.

 

[Shatnertage]

I finally took a trip...

"Through the Looking Glass"

And didn't really like what I found there.

First, Smiley kidnaps Sisko in what has to be the most laconic kidnapping scene I've ever watched. Seriously, it's like the entire ops crew's just overdosed on Valium. Even Sisko's like "Huh? OK, fine."

Although the opening had an interesting piece of trivia. Morn has more than one heart. Maybe he has two hearts. Maybe MORN IS A TIMELORD!

Although Timelords aren't known for fighting voles, it's possible that he's a later (or earlier) regeneration of the War Chief.

Oh, back to the Mirror Universe. I'll say this. Dax's hair is stunning. It looks 1000 times better than her usual 'do--I wish they'd kept this look for her. And Bashir looks all kinds of awesome--again, a big improvement. It's a great look for him.

Kira, on the other hand...that tight rubber jumpsuit is a fashion disaster. It looks very uncomfortable (and MA confirms that it was) and isn't really flattering. At one point, Kira's standing in front of the camera, which is shooting up. And...I don't know how to say this. It looks like she's got...a package. A pretty big one, too. Bulging out.

Who knows, maybe Mirror Kira really is hung like a Targ.

Back to the episode--O'Brien kidnaps Sisko so he can kidnap Mirror Jennifer. There's a scene between Sisko and Jennifer that manages to be completely devoid of dramatic tension.

But I forgot the coolest thing about the episode: Tuvok! Well, Mirror Tuvok. My legitimate, "Cool!" reaction to seeing Tuvok got me thinking that I really do have a soft spot for Voyager in my heart.

Unfortunately, we don't see too much of him, and his appearance ends up being a waste of great potential. Kind of like him on Voyager.

Another funny moment in our house. When they all got to the ship and the camera shows Rom's corpse pinned to the door, I said "Hi, brother" in my Rom voice. That got a big laugh.

I'm still not a fan of the Mirror episodes. At their best, they're fanwanky fun. At their worst, they're just fanwank.

Looks like we've got some interesting stuff coming up, so I'm keeping my chin up.

 

[Admiral Shran]

The thing with the Mirror Universe episodes is that you either like them (not love, I've never met anyone who actually loves them) or you absolutely, utterly loathe them. I'm thinking you fall in the "like" category, but just barely because I don't see the foaming-at-the-mouth rage (yet ).

Personally, I like them. They certainly aren't great, but I've never understood all the hate they get. They're interesting little diversions and a nice "show within the show."

Probably the only thing I really don't like about them is the character of Mirror Bashir. He just comes across as a whiny, little ass. He's supposed to be threatening, but, aside from his appearance, he's not. I'm really left wondering why the others tolerate his crap all the time.

I'm still not a fan of the Mirror episodes. At their best, they're fanwanky fun. At their worst, they're just fanwank.

What's wrong with fanwank? Personally, I like being wanked.

Seriously though, I love fanwanky episodes.

 

[JRS]

Kira, on the other hand...that tight rubber jumpsuit is a fashion disaster. It looks very uncomfortable (and MA confirms that it was) and isn't really flattering.

Maybe so..but it does look good from behind
I think this Mirror-universe episode was still one of the better ones

 

[Admiral Shran]

Maybe so..but it does look good from behind

That it does.

 

[Shatnertage]

I watched "Improbable Cause" last night and loved it. Unfortunately with the big gaming trade show in town I don't have any time to write it up. I will do so very soon, though.

Best Garak episode yet, and best Garak line yet...

"That you should never tell the same lie twice."

 

[Shatnertage]

I watched "Improbable Cause" last night and loved it. Unfortunately with the big gaming trade show in town I don't have any time to write it up. I will do so very soon, though.

Best Garak episode yet, and best Garak line yet...

"That you should never tell the same lie twice."

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Nor should you ever make the same post twice.

Sorry...couldn't resist.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

To borrow a phrase from Stringer Bell, episodes like that are 40 degree days. Not awful, but not very memorable.

I realize this is all subjective. To me, though, it seemed like the number of "40 degree" episodes started going up somewhere in Season 5 or 6 of TNG. Granted, they'd always been there, going back to TOS, but it seems like there were progressively more of them as the franchise went on.

Voyager, which I like, was about half-filled with 40-degree days. Seasons 1 & 2 of Enterprise (which I also like) were about 70% 40-degree days.

That being said, my point is that it's not anything as abstract as "franchise fatigue" that did the franchise in, but a series of stories that were just kind of...there.

From my perspective, it's the bland episodes that tempt me to stop watching. I'd rather have out-and-out farce than safe, bland TV.

Well DS9's episodes were a lot less bland than what we got on Voyager. I like Voyager but the sense of continuity and overarching stories meant there were less failures as episodes go.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I watched "Improbable Cause" last night and loved it. Unfortunately with the big gaming trade show in town I don't have any time to write it up. I will do so very soon, though.

Ugh, the suspense is killing me.

 

[Shatnertage]

I'm finally back with some time after championing an...

"Improbable Cause"

Well this was a fun one. We start with Garak and Bashir eating lunch. Bashir eats quickly. He must be a parent.

Then someone tries to blow Garak up. His reactions to Odo and Sisko are just great, particularly once we learn that he actually was terrified of being killed and engineered the whole thing.

The real gem, as I mentioned above, was his reaction to "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." They did a fantastic job, with a few brush strokes, of getting into how different Cardassian culture/psychology was from human. Brilliant stuff.

Who was Odo's Cardassian friend in the cave, and why was that scene shot so strangely. The guy looked very misty-eyed in the tight close-ups.

I love that Odo and Sisko lampshaded the awful Romulan uniforms, saying that they should appreciate good tailor. And the Rommies got new uniforms in this, though I still don't like them very much.

Then we find out what was going on in Orias system. Romulans and Cardassian secret service guys working together to sneak attack the Founders.

And, even though Tain's a tricky bastard who tried to have him killed, Garak's going along for the ride.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

One thing I've never been sure, though, is just how indicative Garak is of true Cardassian psychology. Or if he is just indicative of Obsidian Order psychology.

 

[Shatnertage]

And I'll jump right through to...

"The Die is Cast"

I've got a soft spot for this one because that used to be my website's name. I've since rebranded it since I'd get people looking to buy diecast cars and stuff.

I like this one even more than "Improbable Cause" though not as much happens for most of the story.

We start with Bashir pining for Garak, since O'Brien's not much of a talker during lunch.

Then we go to what has to be simultaneously the most bizarre and coolest scene I've watched in a while. Former Obsidian Order head Enabran Tain reunites with his former protege Garak onboard a Romulan warbird. They sit next to each other on a couch, gossip about their former colleagues, and sip mimosas from champagne flutes.

Mimosas! Very Carrie and Miranda of them, don't you think?

I was chuckling the whole time because, as they're discussing who's going to get killed, they're sitting there looking like two guys celebrating a successful gallery opening.

Then stuff gets serious, with Garak being forced to torture Odo. One of the most powerful scenes in a while, brilliantly done by both actors. It lacks the delicious hamminess of the Shran/Soval torture scene from "Awakening," but it's just really good stuff and actually gives "There are four lights!" a run for its money.

My wife thought Tain was conning Garak into something, and initially I thought the ending was going to be Garak betraying Odo then being rejected by Tain after giving him the information and saved by Odo. But they took a different approach, with Tain being the victim of the con (changeling Lovok is the real trickster). Even though we're led to believe he died, I suspected he didn't, which MA confirmed. Good.

The only part I didn't love was the Defiant rescuing them, against 150 Jem'Hadar ships. They should have just had ChangelingLovok let them go. Reading MA I got that they were unnoticed in the commotion of the battle, but while watching I thought the battle was pretty much over already. I'm not a big one for space battles, anyway.

Eddington turned out to be a real snake-in-the-grass, didn't he?

 

[Admiral Shran]

The real gem, as I mentioned above, was his reaction to "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." They did a fantastic job, with a few brush strokes, of getting into how different Cardassian culture/psychology was from human. Brilliant stuff.

Agreed, brilliant stuff. This is the kind of writing that DS9 really becomes known for from here on out.

Who was Odo's Cardassian friend in the cave, and why was that scene shot so strangely. The guy looked very misty-eyed in the tight close-ups.

It was clearly done to keep the identity of Odo's contact secret, but I also think it was shot with him always above and behind Odo to convey the sense that something isn't quite right, there's more going on than there appears.

One thing I've never been sure, though, is just how indicative Garak is of true Cardassian psychology. Or if he is just indicative of Obsidian Order psychology.

Garak's one of a kind.

I would, however, say he's indicative of a certain personality type that a group like the Obsidian Order looks for in its operatives. Certainly he's not indicative of all Cardassians, as we've seen ones already that are vastly different than him.

 

[Admiral Shran]

The Die is Cast, along with Improbable Cause, is one of favorites of DS9 and the Garak / Odo scenes are, indeed, unbelievable. But there's one thing about it that always puzzled me....

How does destroying the Romulan and Cardassian intelligence services remove both empires as threats to the Dominion? They both still have huge militaries at their disposal and are both still aggressively expansionistic. Sure, taking out the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order are huge blows against the two states, but it certainly doesn't leave them utterly crippled.