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Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

The evening gown was nice costuming, but this one just didn't do it for me. I didn't hate it, but it's not one of my favorites.

Heh, if you didn't like Crossover, then you're probably not going to like any of the Mirror Universe episodes. ;)

I don't know, the next two might win him over, on account of having a plot beyond "Here is the Mirror Universe, kay?". The last two won't.

I'm a fan of the Mirror episodes myself, they make for enjoyable episodes. Not exactly much depth, but enjoyable.
 
For my money, the way it undoes Mirror, Mirror is it's greatest strength. It shows that it takes more than a pretty speech from Kirk to change an entire civilization.

I dunno, I don't think it so much undoes Mirror, Mirror as suggest that yes, in fact, the reforms Spock implemented did take effect - and because of that, the Terran Empire was conquered and subjugated by the Klingons and Cardassians. Almost a "nice job breaking it, hero" result.

That's pretty much what I meant to say - by "undoes" I meant that it shows how Kirk can't just swoop in, make a few small changes and then everything works out for the absolute best in the end. Life is more complex than that.
 
Guess I'm in the minority. I love AU eps. & enjoyed this one. I enjoyed them as they progressed through the series.
 
Well, we're back in the regular universe, looking for...

"The Collaborator"

We start out with Kira's Naked Dream Boyfriend consulting the orb and getting all kinds of freaky stuff. Then he's hanging out with Kira, with his shirt off, IRL. Good for him. He's running for Kai, and he's a shoo-in. Which means that, by the end of the show, he won't be Kai.

From the credits, I see that Louise Fletcher and Camile Saviola are in this one, and I'm thrilled.

They still talk about Opaka as if she's dead, when she's really right on the other side of the wormhole, still trying to bring those two sides together. And she probably thinks that all of Bajor is working on a way to get her back. Or not.

The real star of this episode was Louise Fletcher, who makes the character of (soon to be) Kai Winn really work. She gives obviously evil dialog without twirling her (virtual) mustache, reading the lines so straight that she makes me believe that her character is truly evil.

You really see the difference in her scene with Avery Brooks; she's totally convincing, but Brooks can't quite get the cat-that-swallowed-a-canary smile off of his face. She's just one of those actors that makes every scene she's in that much better. And I love the way she calls Kira "child."

I like what they did with Bariel. It wasn't the predictable thing, where he was the good guy who got framed by Winn, but he wasn't really the bad guy anyway--he took the fall for Opaka. Nice way to take him out of the Kai spot (where, frankly, he'd be kind of boring) but still preserving him as a likable, sympathetic character.

There was also that moment where Kira tells Odo that she loves Bariel, not aware that he has feelings for her. Great job with Odo almost letting himself slip, then covering it up with his usual misanthropy. There's just a lot of good stuff going on here.
 
(where, frankly, he'd be kind of boring)

Let's face it, he's kind of boring no matter what he does. ;) The concept of Bariel is pretty good, to present a calm, serene counterpoint to Winn's scheming, but he ends up being just kind of dull. Ah well, given the overall strength of DS9's supporting cast, one mistake is forgiveable.
 
Winn is, indeed, a better choice for Kai, from a dramatic standpoint - since she's a much, much more interesting and memorable character.

I agree that Bareil comes off as way too boring. Which is odd, considering that....

Philip Anglim does a MUCH better job with Mirror Bareil.

As for Opaka - she is for all intents and purposes dead. There's no way she can leave that moon. Maybe people are working on a way to save her from behind the scenes, but in the meantime, Bajor needs to move on and get itself a new Kai.
 
^ With Bajor being so critical to the Federation, you'd think they'd put a few scientists and doctors on the problem. It's another example of "if we can't solve the problem in 40 minutes, it'll never get solved."

But on to the next episode. After this one I'd really consider sitting the writers down for a...

"Tribunal"

From the title, I knew that I was in for CourtTrek, which as I've said before is one of my least favorite variants of Trek. So we had some fun trying to guess who was going to be on trial, and for what, and who was defending and prosecuting them.

My favorite was: Bashir is on trial for being creepy towards women. Dax is speaking for the prosecution, Garak for the defense.

But it ends up being a "torture Miles" episode. And a long, long, slog through a courtroom procedure that, by its very nature, is anticlimactic. With lots of speeches, too.

According to MA, the whole episode stems from Dukat's line that on Cardassia, the outcome of trials is known before they start. That's a great little world-building detail that sheds some light on the Cardassian psyche, but having to actually watch it happen is brutal, particularly since we know that O'Brien isn't going to be executed.

It doesn't help that his conservator is well-cast as an old, dour, windbag guy who is then given lots of speechifying to do. Or that they put Keiko into a role that requires a lot of emotion. Ugh.

BTW, watching Keiko and O'Brien kiss reminds me that watching Trek characters make out is like watching your parents make out--it's just weird and uncomfortable.

One of the problems with CourtTrek is that it is just so different from all of the courtroom dramas that define the genre. It's usually just the main cast and 2 or 3 guest actors--no jury, no courtroom crowd, no outside investigators. This one was no exception. You had the Archon, the Conservator, the three kids, and Miles, Odo, and Keiko. I didn't even see a photog, even though the trial is being broadcast to the whole planet.

It's also funny to see the station's viewscreen, which reminds me of the American Idol logo, is on Cardassia too. And I think they recycled Odo's holding cell here, with the rational that, well, the station was built like Cardassians, and all Cardassian cells look alike, so if we just turn the lights down, it'll work just fine. I'm sure the producers loved the writers for that. Very smart, actually.

I totally didn't understand why the government takes molars from everyone when they're ten, either. You can't use a missing tooth to ID someone, can you? Particularly when everyone's missing the same tooth? And where would they keep them? Wouldn't it be easier to just keep their fingerprints and DNA profiles online somewhere? And I like that they cut his hair for a drug test, too.

The final scene, where they pulled a Frankie Pentangeli's brother by having Sisko show up with the fake Maqius guy, also made no sense. How did he get there, if three starships (including the E) were stuck at the border? And what would prevent them from just killing the fake Maquis guy and then claiming the Feds made it all up?

They were very heavy-handed with the Orwellian stuff, and almost completely unoriginal. O'Brien's initial processing is straight out of "Chain of Command," though it's nice to see that they've upgraded to one light that moves around. The stuff at his trial about him hating Cardassians and being against the treaty could have been lifted from TUC. We get the point: arbitrary systems of justice that aren't about a genuine search for the truth are bad. But if you're going to show us one of them, as in 1984, there really can't be a happy ending.

For me, this is Trek at its worst: completely serious, preachy about something that all civilized people already agree on, and saddled with an inane plot. Especially after what we've recently seen, it comes across as two-dimensional.
 
Well, we're back in the regular universe, looking for...

"The Collaborator"

We start out with Kira's Naked Dream Boyfriend consulting the orb and getting all kinds of freaky stuff. Then he's hanging out with Kira, with his shirt off, IRL. Good for him. He's running for Kai, and he's a shoo-in. Which means that, by the end of the show, he won't be Kai...

Bareil is dull and Winn is an excellent villain (and interesting character). She livens up many an ep.

The storyline was interesting to me. Esp. what we learned at the end regarding Opaka.
 
OK...as one of our "resident Cardassians," I may be able to offer some ideas on some of these points.

It's also funny to see the station's viewscreen, which reminds me of the American Idol logo, is on Cardassia too. And I think they recycled Odo's holding cell here, with the rational that, well, the station was built like Cardassians, and all Cardassian cells look alike, so if we just turn the lights down, it'll work just fine. I'm sure the producers loved the writers for that. Very smart, actually.

OK...it's always been my theory that the Cardassian Union is a command economy, not a free market. And if there's one thing that governments excel at, it's shitty prefab construction. Ever see all those ugly soul-eating government buildings and schools that went up in the 60s and 70s that all look alike and are also probably all filled with asbestos? Same thing here.

I totally didn't understand why the government takes molars from everyone when they're ten, either. You can't use a missing tooth to ID someone, can you? Particularly when everyone's missing the same tooth? And where would they keep them? Wouldn't it be easier to just keep their fingerprints and DNA profiles online somewhere? And I like that they cut his hair for a drug test, too.

My theory is that removing the tooth is the really, really invasive way they use to get at the DNA. I don't think the point is so much using the tooth to identify people (other than extracting the DNA from it) as it is to give people a tangible reminder of, "We have a piece of you somewhere in our official government buildings where the Obsidian Order will take wonderful care of it. WE OWN YOU." I think it's as much psychological as it is "practical."

I liked this episode...what I would've liked to have seen would be an exploration of what the aftereffects of the interrupted broadcast were on Cardassian society.

I actually did that in a fanfic once, but I won't post it here because it would be full of spoilers for all seasons of the show.
 
Well, I guess if you're not a fan of Courtroom Trek, then Tribunal really isn't going to be your cup of tea. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of CourtTrek, but I wouldn't say it's Trek at it's worst (that would be TNG Season 1, with all of it's pomposity).

Tribunal is elevated, IMO, by Meaney's wonderful acting and the fact that it does give us some nice insight into what makes Cardassian society tick. If it wasn't for that, then it would indeed be a lackluster episode.

Many of your criticisms make sense though - especially the fact that the drama is somewhat lessened since we know that O'Brien isn't going to be executed.

All in all, a slightly above average episode.

OK...it's always been my theory that the Cardassian Union is a command economy, not a free market. And if there's one thing that governments excel at, it's shitty prefab construction. Ever see all those ugly soul-eating government buildings and schools that went up in the 60s and 70s that all look alike and are also probably all filled with asbestos? Same thing here.

The Cardassian Union is indeed very much a command economy. Chain of Command makes it clear that the government (i.e. the military) mandates building programs, agricultural subsidies, economic stimulus, etc. There's no doubt that without the military's say-so, you don't do business in Cardassian territory.

Your example of government buildings and schools all looking alike is very apt as well. It reminds me of the fact that in my hometown the county jail and the public school look EXACTLY alike. Kind of creepy, actually.
 
Tribunal's story is pretty weak, that's true, but it's an episode that I enjoy for it's tone and its universe building. The plot doesn't matter a damn here, it's a MacGuffin used purely to explore the Cardassian legal system. And it's good to keep in mind that as the Cardassians are characterised more sympathetically and their empire moves towards a more neutral position, the regime is still brutal.

It's also funny to see the station's viewscreen, which reminds me of the American Idol logo, is on Cardassia too.
Prepare to see the same shot about five more times with different speeches playing each time you see it. Those two Cardassians are always in the same spot whenever major events are happening and they always react the same way. :lol:
 
Tribunal's story is pretty weak, that's true, but it's an episode that I enjoy for it's tone and its universe building. The plot doesn't matter a damn here, it's a MacGuffin used purely to explore the Cardassian legal system. And it's good to keep in mind that as the Cardassians are characterised more sympathetically and their empire moves towards a more neutral position, the regime is still brutal.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts on the episode as well. I can definitely see how someone may not like it much if they don't enjoy courtroom episodes, though, as the actual plot is a bit contrived.
 
Prepare to see the same shot about five more times with different speeches playing each time you see it. Those two Cardassians are always in the same spot whenever major events are happening and they always react the same way. :lol:

Cardassians value order in all things.
 
Well sorry for eating up multiple replies all of a sudden but I'm now officially caught up. I don't agree with you on some rankings (of course that usually happens) but this is a terrific watch thread. You've got good wit about you and I look forward to reading your Voyager run sometime.
 
And suddenly I don't feel so bad about having my computer literally explode on me during the climax of mine.
Well, I didn't stop at the climax, rather during the post orgasmic depressive phase that is Crusade. ;) I'll get back to it eventually, just as soon as I finish watching every video on YouTube.

Anyway, long time no see. Sent back to prison again, eh?
 
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