Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Shatnertage, Jun 4, 2011.

  1. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As Damar would say, guilty as charged. At that point, I'd already watched the next episode...

    "Tacking into the Wind"

    Still three threads here.

    1. Gowron throws his weight around, bugs his eyes out more than ever (it's like he's knows what's coming and wants to get it all in) and tries to get Martok killed or disgraced. He's a smart guy, that's for sure.

    2. Kira, Odo, and Garak are training the Cardassian Liberation Front. This is potentially great stuff, because Damar, though he appears to have reformed, killed Tora Ziyal, who was close to both Garak and Kira. Yet this isn't mentioned so much. Odo puts on a brace face (literally) but is dying from the disease that, like so many other Trek diseases, mostly causes bad skin. They have a bold plan to capture a Jem Hadar ship fitted with the Breen energy-dampening weapon.

    This story ends like a Tarantino movie, with a Mexican standoff between Rusot, Kira, Garak, and Damar. Really good stuff. Damar shows his true colors by killing Rusot (because no one would have their weapon on stun, right?) and saying that they'll never go back to the old Cardassia.

    I was furious at Kira for her wisecrack "yeah, what kind of people would do that" after Damar found out his wife and daughter had been murdered.

    The Rusot/Kira stuff was well-played.

    3. O'Brien and Bashir try to find a cure for Odo

    One of these is not like the others. I've watched the next episode, and will speak more of it in the next post...
     
  2. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Where this episode is concerned, throwing a hammer through my TV or punching myself in the head would not be considered...

    "Extreme Measures"

    So far, the Big Final Arc has been a great ride. We've seen multiple stories build up, intersect, combine, and diverge. It's been great television.

    Not any more. Either because the budget ran out or because the writers were creatively stumped, everything comes crashing down here.

    Let me break this down. As of the end of the last episode, there are many places we could go in this one.

    1. Dukat living as a beggar on the streets of Bajor, living by his wits, at the mercy of those whom he once ruled. Will this change him? Or will it make him more bitter and demented? What is Dukat willing to do to survive, to destroy Bajor, and get his revenge on Sisko? Also, how is Winn dealing with her own embrace of the Pah Wraiths, which she knows is wrong?

    2. Kira and Garak helping the Cardassian Liberation Front. Does Kira continue to have misgivings? Does Garak, having time to think about it, decide to kill Damar as revenge for his beloved Ziyal? Does he spend the episode grappling with his conscience, realizing that he can't kill Damar because if he does, the best hope for a New Cardassia dies with him? Does Kira talk him out of it, mirroring the scene where she talked Dukat out of killing Ziyal?

    3. Odo confronts his mortality. Previously, he'd thought he'd have centuries, perhaps, to live, and would live forever in the Link. Now, it looks like he's going to die in a week, without ever getting to go "home." What does he feel?

    4. How's the rest of the war going? How does Sisko feel about losing his ship? A non-rhetorical question: I thought there was a mandatory court-martial if a captain lost a ship. Would that be interesting to see?

    But no, the writers didn't want us to explore any of those stories. Instead, how about yet another could-be-TNG episode where two characters goof off in a dead guy's brain?

    This seems so familiar. We've had an episode set inside of Bashir's brain, and there was that episode where Bashir and O'Brien were inside the computer. Watching this, I couldn't believe that this was the entire episode, with no B story to provide a break from the tedium.

    There's one funny moment that had both of us laughing thanks to my msting. It's when Sisko and Dax walk in on the science lab. Here's how it goes in my version:

    Of course, they lampshade this aspect a few minutes later by having Bashir try to get O'Brien to admit that he likes him more than Keiko.

    But this episode was painful. Absolutely awful. I can't believe that the same creative team who made the first 6 episodes of the arc thought this was good enough to air.

    I'm not sure that this is the worst episode of DS9, but as far as I'm concerned, it's in the conversation, mostly because of the placement. If this had been in the middle of season 4, it would have been one thing, but this is the third-to-last hour of DS9 ever made. I expected much better.
     
  3. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can understand where Kira's coming from with that remark, it was very insensitive to throw it into Damar's face during the worst tragedy of his personal life, but he did need to be remind just what the Cardassians had done to other people to set him on the path to redemption.

    Damar was always a rather romantic idealist about the nature of both the Cardassian Union and those whom he served under and as awfully cruel as it was, he did need a wake up call.

    And he did learn from his past in a typically Cardassian way...by shooting dead the person that represented the old xenophobic, expansionist Cardassia and declaring it dead.

    Oh those wacky Cardassians...

    (also I found Kira impersonating the Vorta quite amusing:lol:)
     
  4. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Yeah, Extreme Measures is the black sheep of the final chapter, and definitely not in a good way. I enjoyed the fact that O'Brien and Bashir got to investigate Section 31 together, but could they really not have done it in a better way?
     
  5. I definately agree with the criticism of Extreme Measures and it's placements. It's a decidedly mediocre average as it is, but having it be the conclusion to the "Odo's sick" storyline, right after 6 straights episodes of superb arc-storytelling? They mastered the build/payoff of arcs in those 6 episodes (Changing Face of Evil and Tacking are both excellent payoff episodes). Then the whole thing comes crashing down here. While the next remaining two episodes are fairly good, the whole thing just sort of loses momentum.

    The only scene in the entire episode that's worth a damn is that last one in Sloane's mind where Bashir has access to all of 31's secrets. I actually love that scene, the way it's staged, it feels dramatic, the gravity of the secrets Bashir could learn. It feels weighty. The rest of the episode is a massive dull waste of time. You know if they had to save money couldn't they have just had the whole thing set on Voyager sets, on one of Section 31's "secret ships" or something?

    I think it's interesting that 6 episodes seemed to be their limit before they got in way over their heads, as the last arc was also 6 episodes and was fairly consistent throughout. These writers would probably go insane if they had to write say Breaking Bad or Mad Men.
     
  6. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course, to your last statement, SCS, we can't say what they would do now, after actually having had the example of such shows to follow. I don't think a lot of shows that were that serial in nature were out back when DS9 was still on the air.
     
  7. Damask

    Damask Commander Red Shirt

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    Best part of the episode. Kira even acknowledges that it was stupid. However it needed to be said. Damar did kill Zyal in cold blood after all, not to mention the countless Bajorans.
     
  8. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, that's one of my favourite scenes of the arc. On the one hand Kira is right, but on the other hand she was a bitch to say it at the moment, while on the third hand the timing of it may have pushed the point home in the way it needed to. It was a genuine moment with a lot of tension that could have gone any number of ways.


    Extreme Measures was a definite misfire. I don't begrudge the writers for wanting to do one final O'Brien/Bashir adventure, but stopping all the other storylines to do it was a big mistake, not to mention the budgetary problems that forced them to do it in Sloan's mind so they could use existing sets.
     
  9. BennyRussel

    BennyRussel Commander Red Shirt

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    Right around the corner. Just across the track.
    I'm with you.

    If they had to do it, that's what they should have made it -- an adventure. Make Sloan's mind exciting, dangerous , full of surprises. Not just a copy of an empty station.

    We heard about all these thrilling adventures they had in the suites -- rafting, fighting wars, defending the Alamo -- and we saw none of it. Now, we get to see them on a quest together and it's as exciting as canned soup.

    Bad episode, cheaply made. Boring.

    I would have taken a whole episode of Kira/Damar and just had Julian cure Odo with a shot of Penicillin and two Tylenol tablets over what we got.
     
  10. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    That's the heart of it, I think. I remember reading way back when that there were lots of parts of the finale arc that had to be scaled back due to budget issues.

    But I'm with the rest of you, this one is a stinker. I'd actually forgotten it was even in the finale arc.
     
  11. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's kinda like The Empath of DS9. But not as interesting.
     
  12. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Finished at last! I've now watched all of DS9--well, except for the last half of "Covenant" and "The Emperor's New Cloak."

    So it's time to let slip...

    "The Dogs of War"

    Damar, Kira, and Garak narrowly escape an ambush, and become fugitive aliens on Cardassia. Well, I guess only Kira's a fugitive alien, but for some reason I was expecting someone to try to kill Damar with a forklift.

    They meet up with Garak's mom (I know it's not canon, but it makes sense to me that she's his mom. Even if she's not his biological mother, she's the woman who raised him.)

    Because the readers demanded closure with Grand Nagus Zek and Rom, above all else, we then get a wonderful send-off to both characters. Rom because Grand Nagus. Wow. Kind of tough when they juxtapose this comic stuff with the material they're begging us to take seriously. They were really reaching for ideas at this point.

    Also, we get a new Defiant, which to me kind of defeats the purpose of destroying the original one.

    And, Kasidy is pregnant. Hard to tell what Sisko is feeling there.

    So at this point they're just queuing things up for the big finale. Honestly this one didn't do much for me. It feels like they lost control of the arc and are really struggling at this point. Stuff just seems to be happening, without much rhyme or reason.
     
  13. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    I suspect it's not so much they lost the plot, they were trying to save money for budget reasons
     
  14. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And now I finally leave behind...

    "What You Leave Behind"

    This is it...the last episode of Deep Space Nine. The big finale. The sendoff. The final curtain.

    We start with Dax and Bashir doing pillow talk. Neither of them wants to die in the invasion of Cardassia. They both promise not to. O'Brien's going to move to Earth with his wife, but he hasn't told Bashir yet. I laugh a little at him moving to Earth to become an instructor at Starfleet Academy, because it seems like a really high percentage of people on the show become teachers at Starfleet Academy. I guess there's not too much else to do on Earth besides teach.

    Back on Cardassia, the Cardassian Liberation Front is still in Garak's mom's basement. And it occurs to me that this might be some kind of swipe at the reputation of Star Trek fans for living in their parents' basements. Except in this case they're actually living Star Trek, not watching it. Or talking about it online.

    Some strange stuff here. First, Damar flirting with Garak's mom, a week after his wife died. Yeah, I know he was just being nice to her, but it felt kind of weird. Cardassians talk about how important family is to them, but Damar doesn't seem to be thinking about how he lost his. Second, the Dominion soldiers kill Garak's mom, line up Damar and the rest, and are about to execute them when the Cardassians kill the Jem Hadar. I'm sure they appreciated the rescue, but couldn't they have killed the Jem Hadar before they killed Garak's mom? The way it happened was pretty dramatic, but also pretty cold-hearted.

    There's a big space battle, which looks very familiar in parts. Martok wants to drink his barrel of bloodwide and talks about glory.

    In the meantime, the Cardassians revolt, and the Founder orders them all killed. This then backfires magnificently, as the Cardassian fleet turns on the other Dominioners and causes them to lose the entire war.

    And Winn and Dukat go to Costa Mesa. Well, not exactly. But they use the Book of Kosst Amojan to get to the fire caves. I've been calling it the Book of Costa Mesa. And the exterior of the Fire Caves looks a lot like a Peter Lik painting to me. Nice. I liked Dukat's crack about how expected, you know, fire. It takes them a really long time to get to the Fire Caves, and at first Winn sacrifices Dukat, but we know it won't be over that easily.

    Damar gets killed early in the attack on Dominion headquarters. Because of Kira's joke about the castle, I keep thinking, "Have fun storming the castle!" while they are fighting and dying. Then, they finally make it to the control room, where it's down to the Founder and Weyoun. Weyoun 8, showing the overconfidence that's the bane of all the Weyouns, taunts Garak about what they've done to Cardassia. Instead of giving a long monologue, Garak just shoots him. I had been promised a single, memorable scene between the two of them, and I got it. I'd been thinking that Damar and Weyoun were going to kill each other, though.

    Speaking of which, the Federation/Alliance forces now have the Dominion forces cornered (in space?) Odo beams down to reason with the Founder, links with her, and convinces her to surrender. She does, signs a treaty, and will apparently be tried for war crimes. What will they do when she's found guilty? Send her to New Zealand for a few years? I'd suggest turning her over to the Cardassians, but we don't learn what happened to her.

    (And Sisko and Ross piss in Martok's bloodwine. Yeah, drinking a toast in the ruins of Cardassia was a little tacky, but then why'd you agree to do it in the first place?)

    Then, simultaneous to this, there's a party in Vic's lounge. O'Brien's finally told Bashir about Earth. Worf is going to be the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire, so he still gets to hang out with Martok. Who is also the leader of his house, which would usually be a slight conflict of interest, but who cares as long as Martok has someone to hunt Targs with? Vic sings "The Way You Look Tonight," and things start to get sappy. Like the last episode of the Tenth Doctor sappy. The montages are a bit much, and they're not that well-executed. I've read that they couldn't get Terry Farrell's permission to use her image, and Jadzia is conspicuous by her absence, particularly in Worf's montage. He has no recollection of his wife, but fondly recalls dangling upside down with Ezri. OK.

    Sisko's spidey sense tingles, and he knows he's got to head to the Fire Caves. This seems to take him a few seconds. Surely it's been days since the Battle of Cardassia, but Winn and Dukat are still goofing around in that cave, and Sisko appears, as if by magic, with no signs of the long and grueling journey that Winn and Dukat took. They found a transporter that moves at the speed of plot. In a very Star Warsy way, there's a three-way dance between Dukat, Winn, and Sisko. Winn gets eaten by the Pah Wraiths. Sisko and Dukat go tumbling into the Fire Caves.

    It turns out that Dukat's imprisoned with the Pah Wraiths forever, and Sisko is with the Prophets in the Celestial Temple. Which the writers thought was the natural, perfect resolution to Deep Space Nine, but I don't. This has probably been said many times before, but it bears repeating. In the first episode, Sisko had two motivations:getting Bajor into the Federation, and taking care of his son Jake. And now, at the end of the series, Bajor isn't in the Federation, and he's abandoned both Jake and his unborn child (and his wife) to live with the Prophets. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

    Poor Jake.

    Yes, it's implied that he will be back, but when the last image of the show is Jake looking out the window, pining for his father, you're just left with a sense of loss.

    And I'm not going to tell people how to cope with the loss of their father, but Jake takes things just a little too placidly here. Remember "The Visitor?" In that episode Jake spent his whole life trying to save his father. Same Jake (different timeline, of course), but this Jake doesn't demand that Nog take him into the wormhole on a runabout, doesn't try to talk to his dad. And Sisko doesn't even appear to him in a vision! Kirk was a pretty bad father in TWoK, but Sisko's giving him a run for his money here.

    Odo also decides to go back to the Great Link, and gets there rather quickly. I like the tux for the farewell.

    My final thoughts about "What You Leave Behind?" There are a lot of problems with this episode. First of all, there was no way of depicting what the story called for: a massive battle for control of the Alpha Quadrant. You've got four guys in charge of the Alliance, and two people running the Dominion. To do this story right, you'd need a movie budget and a huge cast, to say nothing of the FX.

    Second, scenes are just thrown together with complete disregard for the passage of time. The last half-hour, in particular, seemed to combine threads that took place over a few hours with those that would have to take days or even weeks. It's just a mess from that perspective.

    Third, the pacing felt off, and it felt like there was some padding. Maybe because the resolution of the war happened relatively early in the episode, but there wasn't the same dramatic tension as "All Good Things." Or, and I realize I may be struck down for saying this, "Endgame." "Endgame" had the exact opposite problem: there's absolutely no follow-up to what happened after Voyager returned.

    Finally, Sisko joining the Prophets just doesn't do it for me. He doesn't even try to return to his family, which seems out of character for him. And it looks like there's no new Federation commander of the station, which doesn't make a lot of sense, since in the aftermath of the Dominion War and with the Wormhole open again, you'd expect the station to be very important to the Federation.

    So those are my thoughts about the finale. I'll save my thought on the series as a whole for later, if anyone wants to hear them.
     
  15. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The first 45 minutes are great, and then the pacing goes all wrong and for a series that prided itself on coherent story arcs, the story jumps around all over the place. I like the flashback scenes, but some story elements seem to fly in the face of all that the series built up. Odo links with the female changeling and makes her change her mind on a lifetime's worth of hatred and distrust of the solids in about half a minute :wtf:. God, if changeling linking was so powerful Odo would have been a founder from the second episode of season 3.

    Maybe that cure was saturated with love? Hell Voy's Endgame is way better (and if they had added just another 30 minutes to that episode it would have been legendary!). Whereas with What You Leave Behind you could add all the time you want, the problem lies in the plot and how the scenes are arranged.

    No wonder the DS9R books are so strange and odd; for they emulate the last 45 minutes of this episode; weird rambling adventures with offski pace.
     
  16. MrJ

    MrJ Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    All the Trek series finales were flawed in some way, in my opinion WYLB is the least flawed of all of them.
    TOS never had a series finale, but they did have STVI. That was probably the best send off a Trek crew got, but it's not fair to compare a movie to a TV episode.
     
    TNG was one of the best shows in TV history, at least during it's 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons. By Season 7 it was clear the writers weren't trying anymore and problems in episodes were more often solved with Technobable. All Good Things was no exception. During the 7th season of TNG, and all of Voyager, the writers got it in their heads that it was exciting to watch Data, Harry Kim, or 7 of 9 typing on a console while the camera shakes to save the ship. Also while watching AGT for the first time everyone knew that the TNG crew were moving on to their own movie series, with Generations coming out only a few months after the series finale. If I had known how bad the TNG movies were going to be I probably would have appreciated AGT more.
     
    Then there was Voyager. As bad as TNG season 7 was Voy season 1 was just as bad. Unfortunately it didn't get any better, it actually just got worse. By the time it became the Janeway and Seven Show I was only watching it because it was a Star Trek show. There was so much wrong with Endgame it would take an entire thread to properly list everything. But the thing I hate about Endgame the most was the whole plot. Admiral Janeway going back in time and wiping out countless lives just to get her crew home a bit earlier so Chakotay, and more importantly 7 of 9 don't die. But never mind all the other crewmembers she lost in the first 7 years in the Delta Quadrant.
     
    And finally Enterprise, yuck. Just as Voyager continued the downward spiral started in TNG season 7. Enterprise continued Voyagers nose dive. It was somewhere in Enterprise's 2nd season where I completely gave up on it. And not even being a Star Trek series could get me to watch it anymore. I saw a few episodes in it's 4th season as it finally started to get better, but it was too little too late. Which ultimately cumulated in These are the Voyages. Branna Braga publicly said TatV was supposed to be a "Valentine to the fans" but it actually was a giant "Fuck You" to the fans. TatV was without a doubt the worst series finale of any Star Trek series, but then again Enterprise was the worst Star Trek series, so it made sense.
     
     



     
    Something I noticed about, not just What You Leave Behind, but the last 3 episodes of DS9 was that they not only wrapped up DS9 but sort of the entire Star Trek franchise.

    In TNG Worf killed Duras and made Gowron Chancellor. In DS9 Worf killed Gowron and made Martok Chancellor.
     
    Worf was made Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire, which was the perfect conclusion to the character during DS9 and TNG. (Unfortunately, that was undone because someone wanted Worf to fire phasers again in one last stupid TNG movie)
     
    Quark during his "The line has to be drawn here..." speech also says that his bar will be the "Last Outpost" of Ferengi society. The Last Outpost was the name of the TNG episode that first introduced the Ferengi back in it's first season.
     
    The WYLB montage starts with O'brien finding the Colonel Travis figure, the music played during this scene is The Minstrel Boy. Which is a call back to the TNG episode The Wounded.
     
    The final scene of WYLB is a call back to the DS9 Pilot with a conversation between Kira and Quark, with Quark getting the last word of dialogue in the episode.
     
    The final shot of WYLB with Kira and Jake is similar to the shot in The Visitor with Kira and Jake in the upper docking pylon.
     
    And the pull back during the final shot of Kira and Jake out the promenade window in WYLB is similar to the opening shot of the original pilot of TOS. When the camera moves towards the Enterprise into the bridge. Effectively book ending the entire franchise, from a visual stand point.
     
    As well there are numerous other, smaller references to places from TNG and TOS all over the place in the final episodes of DS9.
     
    All these things contribute to a general sense of closure of not just DS9 but all of Star Trek. Not that anyone could have predicted how bad the final seasons of Voyager would be or how bad Nemesis and Enterprise would be. Resulting in 2005 being the death of Star Trek, with it's corpse being reanimated in 2009. But Quality Star Trek effectively ended in 1999 with the series finale of DS9.
     
  17. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Of course, now that you've finished DS9, you're obligated to watch Babylon 5. It's practically Niner law now.:evil:
     
  18. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We tried to watch that a while ago. Got about 3 episodes in before giving up.
     
  19. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree that the pacing in WYLB could've been done better. In my fanfic universe I explain the issue with the Fire Caves scenes (which dragged way more than they should have due to being interspersed with the other scenes badly) as time dilation due to proximity to the Pah-Wraiths, as in, relativistic effects meant that less time passed for Winn and Dukat than for the rest of us. But if that was the case, it should've been explained in the episode. Without that...sorry, it's just bad editing.

    (Also in my fanfic, the events of the Final Chapter are expanded over about three or four months. This is a more reasonable time frame.)

    Overall, though, I thought DS9 ended pretty well. Not quite sure that this episode can go up against "All Good Things," but it was pretty good. The series as a whole, though, is leaps and bounds ahead of the rest.

    As far as Bajor in the Federation...I am glad they broke away from that premise. Bajor deserves to keep its distinct culture intact; defense pacts and trade relationships would be quite sufficient to get the good of the Federation without the bad.
     
  20. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Heh. Didn't even last as long as Godben, who gave up after 4 episodes on his first try.

    He did recently give it another chance though. I... think he may have reconsidered his initial thoughts on the series.;)