Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

[{ Emilia }]

I just thought this is worth mentioning because it doesn't make much sense to accuse the Federation of "promoting secularism".

Just the same, forcing everyone into a secular environment through government coercion is bad. Telling them they cannot choose a religious education if they do want it is government-imposed atheism.

Scroll up, my post is still there. I specifically stated that I have no issues with private schools (or even sunday school) and that I have made only positive experiences attending one. That doesn't change the fact that a state itself must be secular and not promote any religion. It provides basic rules for democratic society no matter what the individuals believe in (and they have the right to believe in whatever they want).

It shouldn't promote any belief. Religion or atheism just shouldn't be something "the state" talks about. I'm not saying the state should promote atheism. I'm saying the state should promote a secular order where "belief" exists outside of state regulation. The state needs to be inclusive and that's only happening if it simply makes no statements about religion or atheism because believing or not believing should be a private matter of the citizen.

As to the question of whether Bajoran law does indeed hold force on the station, we have seen proof on two occasions that it does,

I cut your examples cause this is basically just guessing. Yes, there are examples for Bajoran authorities influencing what happens on the station but there are also examples for Federation influencing it.
As long as Bajor wants to keep the Federation on board of DS9 they'll have to find a compromise on all kinds of issues.

So, suppressing religious expression of a type very likely protected by Bajoran law would be illegal to do on a Bajoran space station, whether you like it or not. The only solution, therefore, is to offer some form of choice to parents, so that they can decide what kind of education they feel is appropriate for their kids.

It's been a while since I've seen the episode. Were the Bajoran kids on DS9 forced to attend Keiko's school?

In my science class they acknowledged that different people have different views of evolution and that no one should feel forced to change their minds, but we were clearly told that we had to learn the material as presented in our textbooks.

It's not just different scientific opinions. One is a scientific theory, the other is "belief". One belongs into science class, the other doesn't.
It's simply not the same level and I'm not even going to tell you which view is better because it doesn't matter. It just shouldn't be compared.

Anything that violates the safety of the student, or teaches the student that it is OK to violate the safety of others, is patently unacceptable.

Yeah, or attacking secularism cause that threatens a state that's inclusive and doesn't pick one religion over the other.

However, they ignored how scary ANY kind of fanatic can be, and frankly, Keiko was getting into that territory (though obviously, she did not commit any physically violent acts).

So she wasn't actually "getting into that territory". See, that's the point. Don't claim that she was getting into that territory in the first place if you then have to admit that she didn't commit any physically violent acts. Keiko was being stubborn, not fanatic. She was not getting into that territory at all.

But like I said they should've just hired some Bajoran person to also teach their religious stuff in addition to Keiko's lessons. No point messing with people's religion.

She could simply comment that "Bajorans call the wormhole the Celestial Temple, and the beings inside go by the name 'Prophets,' and that the Bajorans have a relationship with these beings. Many Bajorans believe in these beings as deities. Now, here's what our studies and measurements show about how the creation of a stable wormhole was accomplished..."

That's a very simple, polite statement, and I think an atheist child could listen to that without feeling pressured in any way.

Yup, agreed. Like I stated in my other post the writers just didn't want compromise and instead emphasized the conflict to make sure nobody missed their "message".
It's annoying in its unsubtly, though.

science and faith [...] are simply one and the same.

A shiver runs down my spine when I read things like this. It's genuinely scary.

If you learn more about the views of moderates, then it should not be.

I grew up with the most moderate form of Christianity you can imagine. I don't think I need to learn more about that but thanks for the condescending comment.

Put simply, I see no need to edit my science to conform to a literal description of what is in the Bible. Nor, however, do I see a reason to decide that because scientific instruments cannot detect things such as purpose, truth, right, wrong, and God Himself, to reject their existence.

I have no issue with this. Science can't falsify belief because it is not the same.
I have an issue with you stating that science and belief is the same. That's plain nonsense because one needs scientific proof and the other needs faith. You can merge the two and be a Christian who also trusts in science and has no issue with evolution. No problem with that. Most Christians do it actually and that's fine.

But science and religion are not the same. The fact that they're not mutually exclusive does not mean that they're "the same". But maybe you just worded it wrong at the start cause what you wrote now to clarify makes more sense. I didn't say science rules out faith. I'm just saying they're not the same and shouldn't be mixed in education. The scientific method isn't the same as faith.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It shouldn't promote any belief. Religion or atheism just shouldn't be something "the state" talks about. I'm not saying the state should promote atheism. I'm saying the state should promote a secular order where "belief" exists outside of state regulation. The state needs to be inclusive and that's only happening if it simply makes no statements about religion or atheism because believing or not believing should be a private matter of the citizen.

There is a difference, however, between the inclusivity of "no comment," and some of the statements I've seen here that there should be no acknowledgment whatsoever of the fact that there is a variety of beliefs among citizens. Acknowledging that variety can be done without imposing particular flavors on anybody.

I cut your examples cause this is basically just guessing. Yes, there are examples for Bajoran authorities influencing what happens on the station but there are also examples for Federation influencing it.
As long as Bajor wants to keep the Federation on board of DS9 they'll have to find a compromise on all kinds of issues.

Compromise is certainly a positive thing--but with the station being sovereign Bajoran territory, is only required to a minimal extent required to keep the peace. Beyond that is a courtesy that they Bajorans can choose to extend or not extend as they wish.

It's been a while since I've seen the episode. Were the Bajoran kids on DS9 forced to attend Keiko's school?

I never saw anything like a true truancy officer on DS9; the reasoning behind Jake getting in trouble for not going to school seemed to be, "Your father says you have to, and you're under his care, so go." Given that Nog was not required to attend school and that Rom had to give his permission, it's clear that there is some sort of opt-in. This differs from US law in that children must be educated once they reach a certain age (either publicly, privately, or through formal homeschooling).

However, on-station it's either Keiko's way or the highway. You either attend her school, or the only other option available to you (though we never saw what the legal status of it on-station was) would be home-schooling.

So I would describe it as "forced by lack of alternative" aside from the possibility of homeschooling. If a Bajoran could not homeschool his or her child (either because law prevented it or because the parents did not have the time or resources to do so), there was no other choice but to place the child in Keiko's school--and the episode made clear that Keiko and Sisko were opposed to the provision of an alternative.

Yeah, or attacking secularism cause that threatens a state that's inclusive and doesn't pick one religion over the other.

And here's where I beg to differ. I find it very obnoxious to suggest that our government ought to endorse religion or irreligion. However, as long as no one a) conducts attacks b) threatens or coerces others or c) abuses their position or participation in legal system or any other government institution, then I think simply getting shouted down or embarrassed by other people using their free speech is quite enough. You can say and think what you want, even if it's obnoxious or offensive, as long as it does not cross the line into an actual infringement on other people's liberties. Below that level, the free market of ideas can take care of jerks or bad ideas.

(As an example, the whole debate with the Westboro Baptist Church case was as to whether the WBC's actions were more than just reprehensible and actually crossed the line into infringing others' liberties given where and how it was taking place. They were highly, HIGHLY offensive and I think no sane person should say such vile things and certainly no true Christian. However, the Supreme Court decided the government did not have any place in interfering.)

So she wasn't actually "getting into that territory". See, that's the point. Don't claim that she was getting into that territory in the first place if you then have to admit that she didn't commit any physically violent acts. Keiko was being stubborn, not fanatic. She was not getting into that territory at all.

If you define "fanatic" as "actually willing and able to commit violence for the sake of one's beliefs," then I would have to agree with you. Keiko did not cross that line and in that way is not the same as Winn.

However, if you use the word in its actual dictionary sense, in which it is synonymous with "extreme devotion," then I think the shoe absolutely fits. She was fanatical; she wouldn't give opposing opinions the time of day, wouldn't bend or compromise, and was disdainful of those who disagreed with her. Those are the behaviors of a fanatic.

But science and religion are not the same. The fact that they're not mutually exclusive does not mean that they're "the same". But maybe you just worded it wrong at the start cause what you wrote now to clarify makes more sense. I didn't say science rules out faith. I'm just saying they're not the same and shouldn't be mixed in education. The scientific method isn't the same as faith.

The way I have always seen it, I see all of it as united under the heading of the search for knowledge, or the search for truth. One discipline--but with different modes that must each be employed under appropriate circumstances and not employed under inappropriate circumstances. For questions of physical matters, the scientific method becomes the appropriate mode, but once the question turns to, "What is the right action now that we know what our possibilities are," a different mode must be employed. Choosing the wrong one is foolhardy at best and outright dangerous at worst.

But I see physical truth and religious truth both as an expression of God's nature--inseparable and incapable of existing without each other. That is why I say that there is a single discipline with multiple modes rather than treating them as if they are alien to each other.

 

[Thestral]

...and in the Circle Trilogy, ...

I just wanted to step in and say really quickly you need to spoiler-code this, stat. I'll probably respond to more, but this is kinda unfair to Shatnerage.

 

[TheGodBen]

Good point. As a practicing Catholic, I doubt I would be much good at teaching Taoism either. But, if we're going to go down that route, I have to wonder how Keiko is qualified to teach anything other than botany.

Because any old idiot can be a teacher, it's easy. And I'm not just saying that out of bitterness towards the girl that left me to become a teacher, I'm completely over that whore.

Seriously, I don't intend to denigrate teachers by saying that anyone can do it, but when it comes to things like science, history, math and whatnot, it basically comes down to learning and understanding a thing and passing along that knowledge. But with religion there is something more, there's a feeling involved that can't be learned. I could spend my whole life studying Taoism and get to understand it on an intellectual level, but I'll probably never understand it on that emotional level. And that's something that I think you'd need in order to be able to teach it to others.

To be fair, in that case it was "anecdotal evidence and a scientific paper with forged results that should never have been allowed to be published in the Lancet," so I'm not quite sure you have a direct comparison there.

What you in fact have is a combined failure of the scientific method and the peer review process that got represented as if it were science.

I don't see it as a failure of science because the scientific consensus never supported the claim, I actually see it as a strenght of the scientific method that it was published, repeatedly tested and thoroughly rebuked. The failure was with the general public and the media who bought into the claim without waiting for verification, which feeds into my point that the general public doesn't really get science. If I read in the media that a study shows a link between caffeine and arthritis, I'm not going to stop drinking tea unless the scientific consensus comes to support the claim, because it could be a bogus study. (And even if it were true, I'd probably keep drinking tea because I'm addicted. )

At the same time, though, I have seen people say that science rules out faith. "We can't build a God-detector, so there must not be a God." Um...right. Try reading the definition of "non-falsifiable" a little more carefully. That's also a false view of science.

I agree. Anyone that uses science to back up atheism doesn't get science. I would find it just as objectionable for a science teacher to tell his students that there is no god as I would a science teacher that tells his students there is one. Though I might not have felt that way when I was 15.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

...and in the Circle Trilogy, ...

I just wanted to step in and say really quickly you need to spoiler-code this, stat. I'll probably respond to more, but this is kinda unfair to Shatnerage.

You could've put that a little more politely, without suggesting that I was trying to do something unjust. Or perhaps PM'ed. However, it is now spoiler-coded.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't see it as a failure of science because the scientific consensus never supported the claim, I actually see it as a strenght of the scientific method that it was published, repeatedly tested and thoroughly rebuked. The failure was with the general public and the media who bought into the claim without waiting for verification, which feeds into my point that the general public doesn't really get science. If I read in the media that a study shows a link between caffeine and arthritis, I'm not going to stop drinking tea unless the scientific consensus comes to support the claim, because it could be a bogus study. (And even if it were true, I'd probably keep drinking tea because I'm addicted. )

The media and celebrities certainly didn't help matters; you're absolutely right about that. However, compare how things like the "cell phone/brain cancer" link have been handled. The studies that I have heard about, in both directions, have been quite a bit more cautious and there has actually be acknowledgment of the need to have more longitudinal studies before answering the question one way or the other.

Regarding the particular incident we're discussing, that should never even have made it into the Lancet in the first place, given the conflicts of interest the doctors in the study had, the forging of evidence, and other problems inherent in the study. That's why we have peer review before things even get published in the first place. Of course, sometimes peer review breaks down and crap gets published. But in this case I don't think it should've made it to that point.

Now, for a case where what you describe--letting it out there to get shot down--is more appropriate, I think cold fusion is a good example of how that happened, when nobody could replicate the results of the Fleischmann-Pons experiment.

 

[{ Emilia }]

...and in the Circle Trilogy, ...

I just wanted to step in and say really quickly you need to spoiler-code this, stat. I'll probably respond to more, but this is kinda unfair to Shatnerage.

You could've put that a little more politely, without suggesting that I was trying to do something unjust. Or perhaps PM'ed. However, it is now spoiler-coded.

I read that just as a quick reminder. Don't see anything rude there and Kestrel is one of the last people here who could be accused of rudeness.

 

[Thestral]

Sorry if I stepped on any toes. I was in a hurry and wanted to make that point quickly. And I don't PM very often, sorry.

ETA: Thanks, Emilia!

Anyway, glad you liked the episode Shatnerage! Personally I think Keiko often gets unfairly villified around here.

There is a difference, however, between the inclusivity of "no comment," and some of the statements I've seen here that there should be no acknowledgment whatsoever of the fact that there is a variety of beliefs among citizens. Acknowledging that variety can be done without imposing particular flavors on anybody.

When you say "here" are you referring to on the show, or on this board? I think in both cases you're incorrect, but it'd be good to be clear.

Compromise is certainly a positive thing--but with the station being sovereign Bajoran territory, is only required to a minimal extent required to keep the peace. Beyond that is a courtesy that they Bajorans can choose to extend or not extend as they wish.

And the Federation can, of course, choose to stay or not to...

...it's clear that there is some sort of opt-in. This differs from US law in that children must be educated once they reach a certain age (either publicly, privately, or through formal homeschooling).

However, on-station it's either Keiko's way or the highway. You either attend her school, or the only other option available to you (though we never saw what the legal status of it on-station was) would be home-schooling.

Since we don't know what Bajoran law is, and since there was apparently no school on station for most of the year, it appears that Keiko's school was something offered by the Federation; indeed, more like something spearheaded on the station itself, since there isn't even a trained teacher.

So I would describe it as "forced by lack of alternative" aside from the possibility of homeschooling. If a Bajoran could not homeschool his or her child (either because law prevented it or because the parents did not have the time or resources to do so), there was no other choice but to place the child in Keiko's school--and the episode made clear that Keiko and Sisko were opposed to the provision of an alternative.

Actually, the episode doesn't indicate that. It's Kira and later Winn who insist on Keiko teaching Bajoran religion as science, despite Sisko suggesting a "Sunday school."

 

[Admiral Shran]

Personally I think Keiko often gets unfairly villified around here.

Indeed. A lot of the criticisms against Keiko I simply never understood. But, here, in this episode, I have to say that I agree with them.

As Nerys has said, she was acting like a fanatic. She clearly wasn't interesting in presenting any opposing viewpoints, was disdainful of those who held those opposing viewpoints and refused to compromise. As { Emilia } has said, she could have brought in someone from the station's Bajoran Temple to teach the faith to those students who wanted to learn about it. But, that just begs the question - why didn't she?

She, and the writers, could have done something even more subtle. They could have had Keiko say something along the lines of "If you wish to learn about the Bajoran's spiritual take on the wormhole, I would encourage you to ask one of our local monks." That way it wouldn't have interfered in the Winn story. Winn could still be presented as the villain by saying that that wasn't good enough while not having Keiko appear as an opposing fanatic.

 

[Hawkeye_90]

I started watching ds9 for the first time last summer and I remember watching the pilot emissary and being completely blown away. Much to my excitment just recently I discovered that I hadn't finished the series stopped around season 5 so I was able to get that excited feeling again by finishing the show. I am a huge tng fan, but after seeing ds9 I think ds9 is the best trek.

 

[Shatnertage]

We watched some of the special features last night. Interesting stuff.

The "Birth of DS9" was mostly focused on design, and it was neat to see how the station took shape. I was a little confused about the layout of the station, so that helped. I also spent some time this morning looking at schematics online, which helped a lot more. I just wasn't sure where the promenade was in relation to everything (I thought it might be what I now know is the outer docking ring), though a had a feeling ops was on top.

They're sure not into spoiler tags in those things, are they? I now know that Kira and Odo end up together and that she gets promoted to Colonel and helps train Cardassian freedom fighters. It's not that much of a surprise because I already know in really general terms what happens in the show, but it's funny.

And Avery Brooks seemed really, really excited to be doing the show in his 1992 interview.

 

[Sykonee]

They're sure not into spoiler tags in those things, are they? I now know that Kira and Odo end up together and that she gets promoted to Colonel and helps train Cardassian freedom fighters. It's not that much of a surprise because I already know in really general terms what happens in the show, but it's funny.

Yeah, I'd stay away from the Crew Dossiers if you want to remain spoiler-free. They pretty much assume you've seen everything before, which makes sense since they couldn't do a detailed Dossier without talking about that character's entire arc throughout the series.

Mind, given some of this forum's thread titles, I'm not sure how anyone can remain spoiler-free.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Yeah, I'd stay away from those special features, if you want to remain spoiler free, until after you've seen the whole series.

The same is true on the VOY special features - not much into spoiler tags.

 

[Hawkeye_90]

Those first seasons are pretty sweet the first time through.

 

[Shatnertage]

I feel like I've been away for a while, so it's appropriate that this is...

"The Homecoming"

The first thing I notice is that they're showing off the second story of the Promenade and Quark's, which apparently they built during the hiatus. Good for them.

We start with Quark and Odo sparring, which is always a good thing. Then Quark gets a gift from an alien captain, which he brings to Kira. They really don't have good manners in the future, because he just walks in on her while she's mediating. He even gets to see her bedroom.

Then comes a scene that kind of threw me. Sisko's talking with Jake about Jake's date, then Kira, his XO, comes running up, looking visibly distressed. But Sisko continues talking to his son, until his son breaks it off, then goes over, orders a raktaino and a torte, like he's just done something great and deserves a treat, then lets Kira talk. What gives? It's like he's emotionally tone deaf/color blind (choose your metaphor) here. He does the same thing later on when he comes back to his room late and Jake, instead of being out on a date, is sitting with his head in his hands. Sisko still asks him cheerfully how things are going.

So what's going on? As best I can figure it, there are

1. Sisko really is completely oblivious to body language and facial expressions and absolutely can't read people, even when it's pretty obvious they're upset. This is deliberately part of the character, and will become important.

2. Sisko knows when people around him are upset, but as commander must be deliberately aloof. If he starts coddling Kira every time she gets a mean face, he won't be able to effectively run the station. Doesn't explain Jake, though.

3. Bad writing and/or direction

4. Avery Brooks was just having a bad day when they filmed those scenes.

It's just strange, because for a while he's written almost like Data, to totally suck at interpersonal interactions.

Back to the episode. They go to Cardassia 4 and rescue Li Nalas, the legendary Bajoran freedom fighter. But it turns out he's really not the man they think he is back home. Oh no. He shot a nearly-naked Cardassian in self-defense, almost by accident, and doesn't really know crap about strategy.

And Li and the other prisoners look remarkably fit and fed for having spent the past decade in a Cardassian labor camp.

On his return, Li gets what might be the coolest coat ever, though I'd have liked it even better if they'd stuck to one material for the whole thing.

Great moment when he tries to stowaway on a ship going to the Gamma Quadrant, but gets caught. It almost reminds me of the story of Jonah, trying to duck out on his responsibilities, but having to face the music.

So Sisko talks with him, and he accepts that he needs to be a hero.

Then we find out that they made up a title for him and gave him a new job: liaison to DS9. Kira, you're fired.

Good episode that had a lot going on. And if anyone has any theories on the Sisko stuff I mentioned above, please share.

 

[MacLeod]

Seems so long ago, this was ST, 1st three-parter.

 

[Admiral Shran]

The best idea I can think of regarding Sisko is that the writers/powers that be were still unsure of what they wanted the character to be like. Should he be like Picard - caring about his crew, yet aloof and aristocratic? Like Kirk - more down-to-earth, yet retaining a superior "air." Or, should he be something else entirely? It's something that really drags down the series, and especially the character of Sisko for quite a while. They finally decided on the direction they wanted to take him sometime near the end of Season Two, thankfully, but I won't spoil you on what they decide.

About The Homecoming - agreed, very good episode. Li Nalas is a great guest character and his attempt to flee from what people expect of him is dynamic stuff, as is his "confession" scene with Sisko.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Li Nalas is awesome...I think he's probably the best and noblest face of the Bajoran Resistance that we ever see in the series--hands down. His humility is also very admirable.

Yes, his legend might've been overinflated, but his ego wasn't--and let's face it, there's a rare virtue.

I wrote an alternate Dukat--and was surprised to realize upon rewatching this episode how similarly my AU Dukat carried himself, to Li Nalas!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Blargh...missed this post...

Sorry if I stepped on any toes. I was in a hurry and wanted to make that point quickly. And I don't PM very often, sorry.

Thanks for clarifying.

When you say "here" are you referring to on the show, or on this board? I think in both cases you're incorrect, but it'd be good to be clear.

Both.

Compromise is certainly a positive thing--but with the station being sovereign Bajoran territory, is only required to a minimal extent required to keep the peace. Beyond that is a courtesy that they Bajorans can choose to extend or not extend as they wish.

And the Federation can, of course, choose to stay or not to...

With the wormhole around, I'm not sure how much of a strategic choice the Federation really has at this point. Bajor might not be that important to the Federation, strategically, but the wormhole is, and the alternative is to essentially hand the wormhole and all the power they believe it to represent to the Cardassians.

(Though one wonders if the Cardassians would have taken a drastic action later in the series that could've avoided a major disruption--to put it mildly...still wouldn't have been worth handing the wormhole over to find out, given the Cardassians' track record in handling their interstellar dealings...)

Since we don't know what Bajoran law is, and since there was apparently no school on station for most of the year, it appears that Keiko's school was something offered by the Federation; indeed, more like something spearheaded on the station itself, since there isn't even a trained teacher.

I suspect that during the first season, the Bajoran government was not exactly paying attention to details like that on the station--which was relatively peaceful--when there was enough crap going on planetside to keep them on their toes. Had they actually been able to devote some attention to this situation, we don't really know what they would or wouldn't have done about it.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Li Nalas is awesome...I think he's probably the best and noblest face of the Bajoran Resistance that we ever see in the series--hands down.

Just curious.... even more so than....

Spoiler: a later character

Shakaar?

Yeah, Li Nalas is an all around better character, IMO. Shakaar was rather bland and dull, but he was pretty noble.