sfdebris Reviews "Good Shepherd".

[john titor]

Why do you think Harren clashed with Janeway, aside from the bitterness of being cast into the delta quadrant?

I think he was a loner who had issues with authority. Imo, his clash with her wasn't personal as much as with "the captain" - whoever that would have been.

He didn't care much for anyone else on that shuttle either. They weren't smart enough for him or whatever. He obviously changed his mind about them at the end after getting to know them - at least enough to want to save their lives anyway.

I think he was an independent thinker and his libertarian thinking clashed with Janeways authoritarianism and political manipulation of the crew. He was a scientist who had no time for the political status quo Janeway had created as he was smart enough to realize that it was grossly unfair and predicated on her making everything personal. He was the voice of reason and this irked Janeway, she couldn't understand (or made no effort to that effect) him because he was coming from a completely different angle to hers.

I think he would have worked much better with Picard who had a similar mentality though less obvious and who in my opinion was a fairer and more open minded leader.

 

[kimc]

I think he was an independent thinker and his libertarian thinking clashed with Janeways authoritarianism and political manipulation of the crew. He was a scientist who had no time for the political status quo Janeway had created as he was smart enough to realize that it was grossly unfair and predicated on her making everything personal. He was the voice of reason and this irked Janeway, she couldn't understand (or made no effort to that effect) him because he was coming from a completely different angle to hers.

I think he would have worked much better with Picard who had a similar mentality though less obvious and who in my opinion was a fairer and more open minded leader.

I disagree based on the fact that he had no interest in interacting with anyone else on the crew. He had a beef with authority which means he wouldn't have gotten along well with Picard at first either UNLESS Picard was in a position to help him achieve his scientific goals. Actually, now that I think about it Picard being more of a diplomat while Janeway was more of a scientist tells me that between the two he would have gotten along with Janeway better. At least she would have some understanding of his scientific theories.

 

[john titor]

I think he was an independent thinker and his libertarian thinking clashed with Janeways authoritarianism and political manipulation of the crew. He was a scientist who had no time for the political status quo Janeway had created as he was smart enough to realize that it was grossly unfair and predicated on her making everything personal. He was the voice of reason and this irked Janeway, she couldn't understand (or made no effort to that effect) him because he was coming from a completely different angle to hers.

I think he would have worked much better with Picard who had a similar mentality though less obvious and who in my opinion was a fairer and more open minded leader.

I disagree based on the fact that he had no interest in interacting with anyone else on the crew. He had a beef with authority which means he wouldn't have gotten along well with Picard at first either UNLESS Picard was in a position to help him achieve his scientific goals. Actually, now that I think about it Picard being more of a diplomat while Janeway was more of a scientist tells me that between the two he would have gotten along with Janeway better. At least she would have some understanding of his scientific theories.

He had a beef with Janeways authority, the way the whole Voy status quo was set up to be dependent on whether she liked you or not, not on actual merit. Why was 7 in astrometrics and not Harren aye? Janeway was a scientist in name only, she never demonstrated the discipline instilled by scientific thinking in her command decisions. It should also be noted that Picard was a scientist too, he just didn't boast about it as he was a polymath. For example, he demonstrates his scientific knowledge in the inner light, there are many other instances. Picard was also more objective and less reactionary. Harren would have like his calm collected style of leadership over Janeways might = right alternative.

 

[kimc]

He had a beef with Janeways authority, the way the whole Voy status quo was set up to be dependent on whether she liked you or not, not on actual merit. Why was 7 in astrometrics and not Harren aye?

Based on what? Harren was where he was because that's where he wanted to be. He did not wish to participate or contribute to the crew in any way, shape or form. If he were Janeway would have made use of his talents. Heck, Harren wans't even receptive to a social invitation from Billy, et al. His beef was with everyone - not specifically Janeway.

Janeway was a scientist in name only, she never demonstrated the discipline instilled by scientific thinking in her command decisions.

Again, based on what? You make these statements but don't back them with examples. Janeway was on the science track and also served as a science officer on the Al-Batani before Owen Paris saw her command ability and convinced her to switch tracks.

It should also be noted that Picard was a scientist too, he just didn't boast about it as he was a polymath. For example, he demonstrates his scientific knowledge in the inner light, there are many other instances. Picard was also more objective and less reactionary. Harren would have like his calm collected style of leadership over Janeways might = right alternative.

Picard may have had some interest in archaeology but as far as I know was never on the science track or worked as a scientist. His interest had always been in command. I believe he even failed a semester of organic chemistry.

 

[john titor]

He had a beef with Janeways authority, the way the whole Voy status quo was set up to be dependent on whether she liked you or not, not on actual merit. Why was 7 in astrometrics and not Harren aye?

Based on what? Harren was where he was because that's where he wanted to be. He did not wish to participate or contribute to the crew in any way, shape or form. If he were Janeway would have made use of his talents. Heck, Harren wans't even receptive to a social invitation from Billy, et al. His beef was with everyone - not specifically Janeway.

Janeway was a scientist in name only, she never demonstrated the discipline instilled by scientific thinking in her command decisions.

Again, based on what? You make these statements but don't back them with examples. Janeway was on the science track and also served as a science officer on the Al-Batani before Owen Paris saw her command ability and convinced her to switch tracks.

It should also be noted that Picard was a scientist too, he just didn't boast about it as he was a polymath. For example, he demonstrates his scientific knowledge in the inner light, there are many other instances. Picard was also more objective and less reactionary. Harren would have like his calm collected style of leadership over Janeways might = right alternative.

Picard may have had some interest in archaeology but as far as I know was never on the science track or worked as a scientist. His interest had always been in command. I believe he even failed a semester of organic chemistry.

Yes, but that the problem, we were never shown Harrens backstory. In addition I can't blame him for not wanting to have much to do with Billy. Jeez he was the only sane crew member.

Secondly, yes the writers do their utmost to promote Janeways scientist credentials as her backstory, yet we're never shown how that translates into day to day life. Many of her solutions to problems rely on brute force or just plain illogical thinking which would get the crew killed irl. This is the main beef I have, I know lots of scientists and the training they recieve in the scientific methodology reflects in their thought processes in other areas. If they have a political viewpoint, I might not agree with it but I can be damn sure they'll back it up cogently and rationally. They also tend to be openminded, so I can state a viewpoint, if they don't agree with it fair enough but they'll acknowledge its merits if there are any.

Similarly with command decisions if Janeway learned anything from being a scientist it would be to come up with intelligent solutions and many of solutions were utterly questionable, ill thought out with nary a thought for the other side of the argument, ie totally subjective and personalized. These are not the hallmarks of a good scientist.

Picard was the opposite of this in every way and had good knowledge of environmental science. In fact if he had decided to pursue science he would have made a better one than Janeway, you can pass the exams and get the qualifications but a good scientist these do not necessarily make you. The inner light is a prime example of Picards natural scientific tendencies when he explains to his daughter what constitutes good research, he understood the methodology at a deep level. With Janeway I definately get that impression of just passing the exams without really appreciating or caring about what she was doing, competent up to a point (and only established as such by the writers) but not naturally a scientist. If we're to look at the shows and the general behaviour and personas of both captains I'll set my watch and warrant on it that Picard made the better scientist.

 

[kimc]

Yes, but that the problem, we were never shown Harrens backstory.

We didn't see the backstory of the other lower deck characters either. They weren't needed for the main story being told, imo.

Secondly, yes the writers do their utmost to promote Janeways scientist credentials as her backstory, yet we're never shown how that translates into day to day life. Many of her solutions to problems rely on brute force or just plain illogical thinking which would get the crew killed irl.

Again, based on what? Just as a scientist must rely on good data a good debater must rely on good examples to make a point. So far you've given opinions with no substance.

 

[john titor]

Yes, but that the problem, we were never shown Harrens backstory.

We didn't see the backstory of the other lower deck characters either. They weren't needed for the main story being told, imo.

Secondly, yes the writers do their utmost to promote Janeways scientist credentials as her backstory, yet we're never shown how that translates into day to day life. Many of her solutions to problems rely on brute force or just plain illogical thinking which would get the crew killed irl.

Again, based on what? Just as a scientist must rely on good data a good debater must rely on good examples to make a point. So far you've given opinions with no substance.

Regardless we get an indication that Harren would be quite cooperative if he wasn't just ignored because he didn't fit into Janeways "family," ie a political institution for which a scientist personality type would have no time for. Thats the thing, Harren demonstrates traits which indicate deeper levels, that he hates all forms of ideological dogma which he rightly associates with authoritarianism but which he can go against in times of crisis. So naturally he dislikes Janeways dogmatic approach to everything, as the show presents her as simply being right about every situation without any consideration for the opposing side of the argument. Harren as a scientist, as a rational objectivist despises this form of reasoning because it is fundamentally unscientific, irrational and more than anything else proof that while Janeway could pass a few exams she learned absolutely nothing about the true meaning of science.

What about the time she decides to fly through two binary stars even though it jeopordizes the entire crew just to get rid of a few alien parasites, rather than devising a creative solution based on research to get rid of them. Or the time she runs through fire and ends up with third degree burns just to turn off a switch. These are incidents you can find in the series, there are many more, her torture of alien species and refusal to even mentally acknowledge her first officer's objections, her decision to kill Tuvix without any thought for the alternative perspective. Its the way her character is written, Janeway is always right no matter what and this is the problem which directly conflicts with the idea of her being a scientist. A good scientist will acknowledge that they may not be right in their decisions/conclusions, that there is evidence which contradicts their suppositions but we never see this with Janeway. What we do see is that Janeway is a dictatorial micromanager and a fanaticist and someone who is warlike enough to romanticize the idea of kicking the crap out of alien species with Kirk rather than trying, I dunno, diplomacy as a way of establishing relations?

And even then she displays a personalized idealization of history because Kirks actions were context dependent. He wasn't a war monger by nature, he was continually forced into situations of conflict because (a) the klingons and romulans were both powerful forces to reckoned with particularly at that time and (b) the galaxy was largely unexplored and the federation was in its infancy, ergo a lot of alien species will take advantage of these perceieved weakenesses (c) it was the 60s and it made for good tv.

She is not an objective analyst, the show bears this out, if you can find examples of where she actually demonstrates the ability to be objective in her decision making processes I'll be open to the possibility that maybe, she retains some of here scientific training from her education but imo she displays very little of the objective reasoning that is fostered through rational inquiry.

 

[kimc]

What about the time she decides to fly through two binary stars even though it jeopordizes the entire crew just to get rid of a few alien parasites, rather than devising a creative solution based on research to get rid of them.

Are you talking about "Scienific Method"? Let's see how creative YOU can get when aliens have been injecting you with who-knows-what

Or the time she runs through fire and ends up with third degree burns just to turn off a switch.

I believe it was to turn on a switch to allow a missile to be fired in time to save the ship. Sometimes you have to act quickly to save your crew. She did make the decision however to do it herself rather than order a member of her crew to do it - which by the way she had every right to do if she wanted to.

her torture of alien species

Say what!?

and refusal to even mentally acknowledge her first officer's objections,

"Mentally acknowledge"?? Jut how would you show that on a television show?

her decision to kill Tuvix without any thought for the alternative perspective.

They showed a scene in her ready room where she was obviously thinking about it before going to the bridge. She was thinking about it when Kes came to her. It was obvious she was thinking about it throughout the episode. No, they didn't show little thought bubbles following her around...

Its the way her character is written, Janeway is always right no matter what and this is the problem which directly conflicts with the idea of her being a scientist. A good scientist will acknowledge that they may not be right in their decisions/conclusions, that there is evidence which contradicts their suppositions but we never see this with Janeway.

Janeway was questioning her decision that saved the Ocampa but stranded them during "Night". At the end of "Equinox" she told Chakotay he had every right to have thrown her into the brig.

What we do see is that Janeway is a dictatorial micromanager

A "dictatorial micromanager" would have already known every detail of the lives of the three crewmen on "Good Shepherd" (remember, the episode under discussion).

and a fanaticist

That's not even a word - unless it's some kind of online gaming term?

and someone who is warlike enough to romanticize the idea of kicking the crap out of alien species with Kirk rather than trying, I dunno, diplomacy as a way of establishing relations?

The desire to "ride shotgun" with Kirk, Spock et al is hardly "warlike". Heck, I wouldn't mind riding shotgun with those guys either and I'll bet most folks posting here feel the same.

 

[john titor]

What about the time she decides to fly through two binary stars even though it jeopordizes the entire crew just to get rid of a few alien parasites, rather than devising a creative solution based on research to get rid of them.

Are you talking about "Scienific Method"? Let's see how creative YOU can get when aliens have been injecting you with who-knows-what

Or the time she runs through fire and ends up with third degree burns just to turn off a switch.

I believe it was to turn on a switch to allow a missile to be fired in time to save the ship. Sometimes you have to act quickly to save your crew. She did make the decision however to do it herself rather than order a member of her crew to do it - which by the way she had every right to do if she wanted to.



Say what!?



"Mentally acknowledge"?? Jut how would you show that on a television show?



They showed a scene in her ready room where she was obviously thinking about it before going to the bridge. She was thinking about it when Kes came to her. It was obvious she was thinking about it throughout the episode. No, they didn't show little thought bubbles following her around...



Janeway was questioning her decision that saved the Ocampa but stranded them during "Night". At the end of "Equinox" she told Chakotay he had every right to have thrown her into the brig.



A "dictatorial micromanager" would have already known every detail of the lives of the three crewmen on "Good Shepherd" (remember, the episode under discussion).

and a fanaticist

That's not even a word - unless it's some kind of online gaming term?

and someone who is warlike enough to romanticize the idea of kicking the crap out of alien species with Kirk rather than trying, I dunno, diplomacy as a way of establishing relations?

The desire to "ride shotgun" with Kirk, Spock et al is hardly "warlike". Heck, I wouldn't mind riding shotgun with those guys either and I'll bet most folks posting here feel the same.

She just doesn't come up with good solutions, my examples demonstrate that she relies on brute force and endangering the lives of the crew to get things done, irl voyager would be a pile of debris as a consequence of her impulsive decisions.
Yes you can certainly show mental acknowledgment, you just didn't catch how I used the adverb to emphasize how she just brushed off chakotays objections with utter indifference. She tends to do that to people who don't agree with her.

There have been instances, instances, where we might get a glimpse into the possibility that Janeway does not think of herself as some omnipotent being but the overall pattern is that she is always right, she listens to no one who has an alternative viewpoint and she creates a ridiculous circus of politics whereby promotion is based on whether she likes you or not, highly irrational and bad captaining.

Fanatacist is a new word, one which is awesome and sounds nicer than fanatic. You should be overjoyed to read a new word which you can add to your lexicon. Secondly micromanager, pah! that doesn't mean she has to take an interest in the lives of the crewmembers.

And she is mentally deranged, there are so many examples. I can vouch for the fact that she was a terrible captain who should never have been made admiral ever. And if you look you can find reams upon reams of evidence in support of this, just research it, watch the show again from a different perspective. If anything she should have faced a war crimes tribunal but given that the starfleet elite is run by corrupt officials with whom Picard came into conflict with its quite apt that she was promoted.

She is not a scientist, she is at best a 20th century politician analogue and that's saying something. She demonstrates a complete lack of ability for rational thinking, if she did she would realize her decision to kill Tuvix was unethical and ergo she wouldn't have done it. But she did, because she's a politician and politicians manage rather than lead, she set a bad example from an ethical point of view, because she was impulsive and impatient. If she were a scientist she would get a team together to research ways in which to get Tuvix alive and bring back Tuvok and Neelix, and I believe with the principles underlying matter transportation, the creation of duplicates etc that it would have been possible. But to an authoritarian pragmatist like Janeway she just scoffed at this and did what was immediately practical, rather than what was right, you the ends justifying the means.

 

[kimc]

^ Okaaaay... your posts are making less and less sense to me so we're done.

 

[john titor]

^ Okaaaay... your posts are making less and less sense to me so we're done.

I think my posts will make sense sometime but rather than spoil each others Christmases with an internet debate I'm happy to just leave it.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I see I missed a spirited debate, and in the interest of peace on earth, and good will towards men, I shouldn't revive it in any way, but I do have a few comments.

John is right that Janeway and Picard are two different types of Captain. Picard sits on the bridge of the flag ship of the fleet, with the very best of every type of officer and crew that a captain could hope to have. Not "just" the very best, but a multitude of the very best. IIRC, a Galaxy class starship has a crew complement of 1000, Kirk's old constitution ship had 400, while Janeway's Intrepid class ship had 150. Picard's ship frequently took on and let off old crew, just look at the disappearing reappearing acts pulled by Dr Crusher and Acting Ensign Wesley, and it frequently put into various starbases for fuel and recreation, not to mention educational or diplomatic conferences. Being different doesn't mean one is bad and one is good, just that they are different.

John makes several pleas for Janeway to consider other alternatives to the brute force that she frequently used... "I was taught in the Academy that flying a starship is a delicate thing, but one thing Ive learned, over the years, is that sometimes you just have to PUNCH your way through." Statements like that certainly seem to bolster his argument, and yet I always give her "leeway" in these grandiose statements because sometimes there isn't "time" to be delicate, as the second ep in season 1 demonstrated. In "Parallax" Janeway and B'Elanna have worked together to reason a solution to being caught in the event horizon of the quantum 4 singulariy, and despite putting their plan into practice the "hole" they created wasn't big enough. Every second they delayed, the hole got even smaller, so the delicate woman did what any hulking male Captain would have done in the circumstance. She punched her way through.

Our Moderator reminded us that the Captain risked herself to "pull a switch" in season 3's "Future's End", an act that not just saved her crew from living out the rest of their lives in the 20th century, it killed the man who would rather threaten 29th century Earth with destruction, than miss out on the next "killer ap" for his computer company. There was NO time for diplomacy or science, it was kill or be killed, and the Military Officer, not the scientist made that decision. In case John was recalling the time she ran through flames in "Year of Hell"... again that was a do or the ship dies" thing... no time to send in the reserves since they didn't have any reserves.

I hate to admit it, but so many of the examples that John has picked are from my favorite eps, like "Scientific Method". The aliens have already nearly killed B'Elanna, and have tortured everyone on the crew, including the Captain. They try to reassure her that the death rate from their experiments will only be (not sure here) 30-40% of her crew, and that she should just sit back and accept it. She won't be able to stop them all before they kill again, and just for spite(?) or because her experiment reached its conclusion, an unknown ensign falls dead at Janeway's feet. Janeway can't take it, she tries to bring the young woman back by doing that ancient of all rescue methods CPR even after the Doctor gives up... but it doesn't work. It wasn't one of "her close family" that pushes her over the edge, its this nameless woman who did no one any harm that pushes Janeway to the realization that its NOW or NEVER. We ALL die or we all live by ridding ourselves of this alien research team immediately. How best to do this? Scare them off the ship once and for all ! And by gosh it worked. "I never realized you thought me reckless, Tuvok." "Clearly, it was an understatement, Captain." :-)

Speaking of favorite lines, if not necessarily in favorite episodes, I recall Janeway asking her Bridge crew why they couldn't do "technobabble" to capture the wormhole in "False Profits", and Kim basically tells her beause they'll blow up and she responds, "Then I guess we won't do that." She does listen when she has to. Just like when she invaded Tuvok's personal space in "Meld". He told her not to enter his room, and she entered. He said don't come closer, and she did. He told her NO further... and she stopped. She could judge just how far she could push her relationships, before she could push no more.

Tuvok is a special case, and there's nothing logcial about their friendship, but it exists so we have to accept it. But even this friend, who she trusts implicitly, never got promoted until 5 years into their Delta Quadrant mission. In fact, the Vulcan is the only one who got promoted, if you don't count the demotion/promotion of Tom Paris. I don't count Chakotay, he just "transfered" from his ship to her's with a best position she could offer. I also don't count B'Elanna as a promotion, since she was Chak's Chief Engineer and simply was assigned to same once Janeway realized she had potential to be a good officer. And I also don't "count" Seven, since it was Seven who (with Harry's help) designed and actually built the Astrometrics lab. I'm pretty sure Harry wouldn't have wanted to give up his post as a bridge officer to hide away in the Astrometrics lab for the rest of the journey.

Being part of Janeway's "family" was also no free pass on Voyager, as Tuvok would be the first to explain, just recall the dressing down he received in season 1's "Prime Factors", or as Tom would tell you after his 30 days in the brig, or as Harry would tell you after he consorted repeatedly and against orders with a female from a xenophobic race.

But to get back to the "Good Shepherd", although I think its silly to see Janeway get lost on deck 15... (Heck, there's ONLY 15 decks, you'd think she'd walk them daily just for exercise.) I think its totally believable that she isn't "so" involved in every one of the 150 lives under her command and that she didn't realize these 3 had slipped through the cracks. Chakotay is in charge of personnel, and the dept heads are in charge of their own people and report to him. I did think it amazing that the Captain quickly saw that these three had never been on an away mission, and that in order for them to feel like a part of the Voyager team, they had to go on one. It made me think of the conversation between Janeway and Tuvok during "Juggernaut" when Chakotay became disabled and B'Elanna took over the leadership of the team. Tuvok asked if he should go to the tanker and assume control, and Janeway said "No." Sending Tuvok would send B'Elanna the wrong message, that she didn't trust the troubled Engineer, and she did trust her. Sending those three on a mission with Harry, or Tom, or even Chakotay would also be sending those three misfts a message, that the Captain didn't trust HER life with their questionable skills. Janeway also realized, that after 6+ years of trusting these three young crew to their dept heads, that the Captain HAD to get involved because, in the end the Captain is responsible for everything.

After all, in the end, she ISN'T a scientist. She's the Captain. Its her responsibility to get these people and this ship home, and in the end that exactly what she did. In fact, she did it sixty-three years early, thank-you Captain Janeway.

 

[exodus]

What about the time she decides to fly through two binary stars even though it jeopordizes the entire crew just to get rid of a few alien parasites, rather than devising a creative solution based on research to get rid of them.

Are you talking about "Scienific Method"? Let's see how creative YOU can get when aliens have been injecting you with who-knows-what

I believe it was to turn on a switch to allow a missile to be fired in time to save the ship. Sometimes you have to act quickly to save your crew. She did make the decision however to do it herself rather than order a member of her crew to do it - which by the way she had every right to do if she wanted to.



Say what!?



"Mentally acknowledge"?? Jut how would you show that on a television show?



They showed a scene in her ready room where she was obviously thinking about it before going to the bridge. She was thinking about it when Kes came to her. It was obvious she was thinking about it throughout the episode. No, they didn't show little thought bubbles following her around...



Janeway was questioning her decision that saved the Ocampa but stranded them during "Night". At the end of "Equinox" she told Chakotay he had every right to have thrown her into the brig.



A "dictatorial micromanager" would have already known every detail of the lives of the three crewmen on "Good Shepherd" (remember, the episode under discussion).

That's not even a word - unless it's some kind of online gaming term?

and someone who is warlike enough to romanticize the idea of kicking the crap out of alien species with Kirk rather than trying, I dunno, diplomacy as a way of establishing relations?

The desire to "ride shotgun" with Kirk, Spock et al is hardly "warlike". Heck, I wouldn't mind riding shotgun with those guys either and I'll bet most folks posting here feel the same.

She just doesn't come up with good solutions, my examples demonstrate that she relies on brute force and endangering the lives of the crew to get things done, irl voyager would be a pile of debris as a consequence of her impulsive decisions.
Yes you can certainly show mental acknowledgment, you just didn't catch how I used the adverb to emphasize how she just brushed off chakotays objections with utter indifference. She tends to do that to people who don't agree with her.

There have been instances, instances, where we might get a glimpse into the possibility that Janeway does not think of herself as some omnipotent being but the overall pattern is that she is always right, she listens to no one who has an alternative viewpoint and she creates a ridiculous circus of politics whereby promotion is based on whether she likes you or not, highly irrational and bad captaining.

Fanatacist is a new word, one which is awesome and sounds nicer than fanatic. You should be overjoyed to read a new word which you can add to your lexicon. Secondly micromanager, pah! that doesn't mean she has to take an interest in the lives of the crewmembers.

And she is mentally deranged, there are so many examples. I can vouch for the fact that she was a terrible captain who should never have been made admiral ever. And if you look you can find reams upon reams of evidence in support of this, just research it, watch the show again from a different perspective. If anything she should have faced a war crimes tribunal but given that the starfleet elite is run by corrupt officials with whom Picard came into conflict with its quite apt that she was promoted.

She is not a scientist, she is at best a 20th century politician analogue and that's saying something. She demonstrates a complete lack of ability for rational thinking, if she did she would realize her decision to kill Tuvix was unethical and ergo she wouldn't have done it. But she did, because she's a politician and politicians manage rather than lead, she set a bad example from an ethical point of view, because she was impulsive and impatient. If she were a scientist she would get a team together to research ways in which to get Tuvix alive and bring back Tuvok and Neelix, and I believe with the principles underlying matter transportation, the creation of duplicates etc that it would have been possible. But to an authoritarian pragmatist like Janeway she just scoffed at this and did what was immediately practical, rather than what was right, you the ends justifying the means.

I guess you missed Janeway's comment in "Year of Hell".

"If it means getting this crew home, I'd rather face a Court Martial in the Alpha Quaderant for my actions than spend one more day stuck in the Delta Quaderant."

I think watching the show, the evidence shows Janeway's actions helped them all survive with as few casualities as possable. Mentally deranged indeed.


Daks, being overly social doesn't mean you act that way to aquire people to do stuff for you. For many of us, its simply being friendly, polite and gifted in the art of carrying a conversation. As far as being introverted, what's the point in have all the knowledge in your head if you're too shy to share it with people?

 

[kimc]

Daks, being overly social doesn't mean you act that way to aquire people to do stuff for you. For many of us, its simply being friendly, polite and gifted in the art of carrying a conversation. As far as being introverted, what's the point in have all the knowledge in your head if you're too shy to share it with people?

I'm not even sure I know what "overly social" means. An introvert is more likely to find value in an in-depth conversation with one or two people at a party vs. the "making the rounds" that would energize an extrovert but I wouldn't call either way "overly social".

Yes, as a natural introvert it may be harder for you to engage in "extrovert behavior" like crowded events and as an introvert I know there's a lot of social pressure to be more, well SOCIAL. Even though with years of practice I can hold my own at a party and find pleasure from doing so but at the end of the event I need to be alone to recover a bit while an extrovert may just be getting started!

Being an extrovert vs introvert is all about where you get your energy from - others or being alone. Both types can be "social".

Okay, sorry for the digression but it's a topic I always found interesting.

 

[exodus]

Daks, being overly social doesn't mean you act that way to aquire people to do stuff for you. For many of us, its simply being friendly, polite and gifted in the art of carrying a conversation. As far as being introverted, what's the point in have all the knowledge in your head if you're too shy to share it with people?

I'm not even sure I know what "overly social" means. An introvert is more likely to find value in an in-depth conversation with one or two people at a party vs. the "making the rounds" that would energize an extrovert but I wouldn't call either way "overly social".

Yes, as a natural introvert it may be harder for you to engage in "extrovert behavior" like crowded events and as an introvert I know there's a lot of social pressure to be more, well SOCIAL. Even though with years of practice I can hold my own at a party and find pleasure from doing so but at the end of the event I need to be alone to recover a bit while an extrovert may just be getting started!

Being an extrovert vs introvert is all about where you get your energy from - others or being alone. Both types can be "social".

Okay, sorry for the digression but it's a topic I always found interesting.

Well, I'm thinking allot of introverted people would be extroverted at their own party. It's a setting you know and around people you invited personally. So basically it's your situation to control how you wish.

I used to be somewhat introverted myself. My "cure" was working retail. I took a job as a retail manager YEEEAARs ago to help pay for college. So I HAD to be extroverted to deal with the public. I had to get over what was a fear of the public. Another "cure" was the major I had my degree in, TV & movie production. I had to learn to get used to being in front of the camera as well ans behind it & speaking in front of large audiences. Now I think I teeter between the two, like your example of needing time alone after being in large crowds.

 

[Deks]

It's not about being shy.
It's just about the unwillingness to be around groups of people because you simply can't STAND their company and prefer to be alone.
Even if a person is knowledgeable, experienced and highly intelligent, it doesn't mean they want to or should share any of this with other people (is there any rule that says the opposite?).

I do agree with the fact that Janeway created a sort of 'family' and that she was a type of person who likes going with society for the most part.
This fundamentally clashed with Harren's point of view and she failed to take into account (at least in this particular episode) the fact that there are people who simply are NOT 'social animals'.

It's as if she behaved in a manner that this was completely incomprehensible to her.

I agree that there's a possibility how Picard might have seen Harren's point of view though and at the very least not try to persuade him to change his perspective (which is what Janeway tried to do).

Harren on the other hand lacked a bit of open-mindedness.
Not in the social manner, but his theoretical approach.
He completely dismissed the possibility of a dark matter life-form due to scientific establishment that the molecules in such a state would simply collapse under their own weight and ignored the premise that scientific theories change over time (but he was relatively inexperienced in terms of away missions, and firghtened as well once the creature tapped into the environmental controls on the Flyer).

 

[kimc]

It's just about the unwillingness to be around groups of people because you simply can't STAND their company and prefer to be alone.

That sounds pretty anti-social to me...

I do agree with the fact that Janeway created a sort of 'family' and that she was a type of person who likes going with society for the most part.
This fundamentally clashed with Harren's point of view and she failed to take into account (at least in this particular episode) the fact that there are people who simply are NOT 'social animals'.

It's as if she behaved in a manner that this was completely incomprehensible to her.

I agree that there's a possibility how Picard might have seen Harren's point of view though and at the very least not try to persuade him to change his perspective (which is what Janeway tried to do).

While Picard was an introvert he most definitely not anti-social. He also had a luxury Janeway didn't have in that he could transfer crew that weren't working out off of his ship. After all, not only was he in the alpha quadrant but as the flagship he has his pick. If someone didn't want to "play ball" they could easily leave.

What both Picard and Janeway need to deal with are "the facts on the ground". In a situation where transfers aren't an option the fact is everyone has no choice but to get along. Harren wasn't dealing with the reality of his situation. He was hiding from it and in the process wasting his talents. Janeway was trying to get him to face his reality. I believe Picard would have done the same.