Sexy or Creepy?

[Kommander]

While I certainly don't want to, nor do I think it productive to pile on Trekker here (again), I would simply state that while I sympathize, its also very true that these kinds of things are best dealt with in how we approach the problem.

I know you're struggling with your own issues and trying to reconcile them and get "better." Its a hard thing to do, and even harder when people who are at different stages and mindsets in approaching their problems seemingly don't get it. I'll never forget a line from Ally McBeal where someone asked her once, "Why are your problems so important?" and her answer was a simple "Because they're my problems."

We're in the "me" generation. It would be too easy for me to join everyone and say "man up, get over it," and then recount the list of bad things that have happened to me or the people I love, but that won't really help you. So I think there is some value in what people are saying with regard to "its all in how you look at it."

Robert Maxwell is right: Life is too short for this kind of stuff, a fact which became crystal clear to me in 2010 after my friend Katie died at the age of 24. It would be easy for me to be bitter and angry about it and take it out on the world, but I've chosen not to because it would accomplish nothing and really, its not what she would want me to do.

In the same respect, I don't think you deserve to be putting yourself down so much Trekker. There are, I'm sure, many positive qualities about the person you are today that we don't know about but that are great qualities and things that you should focus on and nurture.

My dad has a bunch of crazy kooky Lebanese sayings he peppered us with while growing up. Life wisdom he'd learned along the way, that kind of thing. Some are really cliche, but they're cliches because we all know them. My favorite is very simple and very practical and one that I try to utilize every day, especially when I'm having a bad day:

doubleoh's dad said:
"Positive brings positive."

It's great advice and is universally accepted as a good thing (except, you know, if you're getting tested for STDs.)

I think though if you can try to embrace this philosophy, and try to employ it in the various areas of your life, you'll find that things will begin to improve for you.

Hang in there. Its not easy work. It won't happen overnight. And you won't be doing any favors for yourself by wallowing in self-pity, even if you legitimately have the right to do so. Remember, Positive brings Positive!

This is good.

I used to do what Trekker is doing. At first I had a low opinion of myself and blamed myself for my shitty life, and then I was angry at the world for turning me into the bitter person I had become. I worked through it, and now I'm taking steps to change things, and it's working. My life is still shitty, but for once I have the confidence that I can change things, and I am changing things, and I realize now that I will eventually get everything I want out of life.

While it didn't seem productive at the time, feeling defeated and bitter toward the world was a necessary step in this process. However, when I tried to talk to people about my problems, most often the response I'd get was along the lines of "Don't bother me with your problems. Suck it up and stop being such a bitch. Life isn't fair, just learn to deal with it." Shit like that didn't help. In fact, it hurt. It made me more closed off and only reinforced my view that society was standing between me and what I want out of life. Had more people been supportive, that stage of my life would have been shorter. Luckily I did manage to find some supportive people and I worked through it. Not everyone is so lucky.

 

[thestrangequark]

^What annoys me is when people attach a sort of status to pain; as if suffering somehow entitles them to something. I can understand why they do it: when you're in that position of hating yourself, and of hating the world (and I've experienced both a number of times), then it's easy to become attached to your pain. It sometimes seems to be the one thing you've got, and in a strange, turned around way, some people develop a sort of pride in that. There is a difference between the sort of cycle of growth and change you're describing, and just dumping on everyone and everything because you're having a bad time, and believing that things like romance and whimsy don't really exist, except in the imaginings of naive people. I know I'm bringing a lot of baggage into this opinion, but as someone who never had that support that you found, I can't help it: I've just got a lot of baggage. So I stand by what I said before. It's not an invalidation of anyone's pain...I even said that: everyone suffers, and everyone's suffering is valid. It's a reminder that the only one who really has the power to improve his life is the individual himself. It'd be a beautiful thing if trekker, and anyone else who's going through that kind of suffering, could find someone the way you did, kommander, but life has taught me that putting faith in others is a beautiful thing to do, but you have to put faith in yourself first.

 

[Mr Awe]

Mr Awe
He lied? How do you know that? I can't know if he lied about anything so clearly you can't either. And yes, some women would feel violated in such a situation, but some women feel violated by catcalls and others take them as compliments, some feel violated when a man comments on their appearance and others enjoy it. I was not manipulated, I was not violated. I was at first uncertain of this unfamiliar territory was too forward, but have since decided that for me, in that time and place, it was not. I guess I'm just not so hung up about sex.

How do I know he lied? I'm basing it on your story. It appears that he requested, and you agreed to, a "little kiss." I'm guessing the typical French kiss on the cheek. Honestly, is that what you got? When you agreed were you agree to a tongue in your mouth and a hand on your breast? I don't think so. That's a lie in my book, on his part. Or, at least a transgression against what was mutally consented to. That's also a classic form of high pressure sales (e.g. manipulation). Get them agree to something small and then push from there. If you think that he was being upfront and honest with you, your judgement about this specific incident is compromised.

If someone were opposed to being groped by a stranger without consent wouldn't mean that person has a hang up about sex. Just something to consider.

At any rate, I'm not criticizing you, just him. Your question was, was HE creepy? My answer is "yes". If you ended up enjoying it, that's great. That is your right.

The only concern that I have is that this appears to be classic thrill seeking behavior. He didn't start out with this behavior. It starts out smaller and then there is the need to take it further and further. So, I'm sure he started out trying this with other women and would just try to get their phone number. Then, that got old so he'd see if he could get a kiss. Then, more. He may well try more extreme behavior down the road. And, I don't mean with you but other women he targets on the street.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

I didn't vote, I could see both arguments, but I feel ultimately it's your personal opinion, if you enjoyed it, and made that apparent to the other person, then it's not assault, however I'm still leaning towards a vote of creepy.

Just today I was at a car dealership and the woman (not unattractive) was talking to me in a friendly tone, and next thing I know she wrapped both her hands around mine and started pulling me slightly towards her..I was somewhat irked, but I didn't really say anything. My wife was 30 feet away but couldn't see. I wonder if this kind of thing would have been seen differently if a man had done it to a woman.

Typical sales technique. Work in a touch and it's proven that they'll get more sales, larger tip, or whatever.

Mr Awe

 

[Shaytan]

How do I know he lied? I'm basing it on your story. It appears that he requested, and you agreed to, a "little kiss." I'm guessing the typical French kiss on the cheek.

Nope, no one asks if it's just a kiss on the cheek. Kissing on the cheek is just as natural as breathing for us, if he asked before, he meant something else

 

[Mr Awe]

^ My wife is Latina, so I understand that completely. In this scenario, he asked because he was dealing with an American. And, in the context of expecting just a kiss on the cheek but getting so much more from a stranger would make even most French women and Latinas upset.

Mr Awe

 

[Shaytan]

^ My wife is Latina,

So ?

so I understand that completely.

In this scenario, he asked because he was dealing with an American.

If he's just a tourist, he might not be aware of some cultural differences and/or he might not care about them

 

[Mr Awe]

^ My wife is Latina,

So ?

so I understand that completely.

In this scenario, he asked because he was dealing with an American.

If he's just a tourist, he might not be aware of some cultural differences and/or he might not care about them

Both the Latino and French cultures are kissy. Very similar in that aspect. I guess you weren't aware of that.

And, he asked because he was probably smart enough to realize that forcing a kiss and then groping is much more threatening than asking for a kiss and then surprising her with the extra. It's a well worn sales tactic, get them to agree to something smaller and then it's easier to get more from there.

Mr Awe

 

[Shaytan]

Both the Latino and French cultures are kissy. Very similar in that aspect. I guess you weren't aware of that.

I'm aware of that but the fact that your wife is a Latina says nothing about the way a Frenchman will behave

And, he asked because he was probably smart enough to realize that forcing a kiss and then groping is much more threatening than asking for a kiss and then surprising her with the extra. It's a well worn sales tactic, get them to agree to something smaller and then it's easier to get more from there.

You're weird
From the moment he asked to walk with her, everything he would ask for would not be "small" or not interested. You have to be very naive to think that in this context a kiss means a kiss on the cheek.

Ok, rule number 2 : when a Frenchman asks you for a kiss, even "small", it's never on the cheek, even if you're American

This discussion really makes me wonder if the DSK case is not the result of an enormous cultural misunderstanding

 

[Pingfah]

I wouldn't bother asking for a peck on the cheek either if I had been chatting with a girl, i'd just do it, it's a standard way of saying goodbye in many cultures

If I were asking for a kiss, it would mean a proper kiss, even a repressed Englishman such as myself.

 

[Mr Awe]

Both the Latino and French cultures are kissy. Very similar in that aspect. I guess you weren't aware of that.

I'm aware of that but the fact that your wife is a Latina says nothing about the way a Frenchman will behave

You're missing the point.

You're weird
From the moment he asked to walk with her, everything he would ask for would not be "small" or not interested. You have to be very naive to think that in this context a kiss means a kiss on the cheek.

Ok, rule number 2 : when a Frenchman asks you for a kiss, even "small", it's never on the cheek, even if you're American

So, you're resorting to insults to try to make your point?

This occured in the US, so he was operating under our cultural rules. But, even in France (and I have been there many times), yes, you'd kiss on the check in such a situation but you would not french kiss and grope like that. That's pretty straighforward. It's not acceptable anywhere in the world that I'm familiar with.

This discussion really makes me wonder if the DSK case is not the result of an enormous cultural misunderstanding

Wow, way to minimize the problem!

I wouldn't bother asking for a peck on the cheek either if I had been chatting with a girl, i'd just do it, it's a standard way of saying goodbye in many cultures

If I were asking for a kiss, it would mean a proper kiss, even a repressed Englishman such as myself.

Sure, a peck the cheek is fine. That's not what happened in this scenario.

Mr Awe

 

[Guartho]

"I may never see you again, I'm in New York only a week."

Maybe I've been watching too much "How I Met Your Mother," but this sounds like classic Barney to me.

 

[Shaytan]

So, you're resorting to insults to try to make your point?

Absolutely not, you're reading too much between the lines.

This occured in the US, so he was operating under our cultural rules.

I demand that all the tourists behave according to our cultural rules in Paris. Thank you.
That's crazy !

But, even in France (and I have been there many times),

But you're still a tourist without the real understanding of our culture. Exactly like this Frenchman.

yes, you'd kiss on the check in such a situation
but you would not french kiss and grope like that.
That's pretty straighforward. It's not acceptable anywhere in the world that I'm familiar with.

You're still not understanding that he was not asking for a kiss on the cheek and that for him, that was obvious. It would have been for me because the context said it. He didn't lied, he was OBVIOUSLY flirting and yes, the kiss was a part of the game. Because it's only a game after all.

 

[Mr Awe]

So, you're resorting to insults to try to make your point?

Absolutely not, you're reading too much between the lines.

This occured in the US, so he was operating under our cultural rules.

I demand that all the tourists behave according to our cultural rules in Paris. Thank you.
That's crazy !

But, even in France (and I have been there many times),

But you're still a tourist without the real understanding of our culture. Exactly like this Frenchman.

yes, you'd kiss on the check in such a situation
but you would not french kiss and grope like that.
That's pretty straighforward. It's not acceptable anywhere in the world that I'm familiar with.

You're still not understanding that he was not asking for a kiss on the cheek and that for him, that was obvious. It would have been for me because the context said it. He didn't lied, he was OBVIOUSLY flirting and yes, the kiss was a part of the game. Because it's only a game after all.

Whatever. But clearly the tongue and groping weren't implied and not an expected part of flirting upon first meeting someone. And, most French women wouldn't have tolerated that either in the same scenario. So, I'm not buying your argument that it was a cultural misunderstanding. And, no I'm more than a tourist in France. I have some family there.

Mr Awe

 

[Shaytan]

Whatever. But clearly the tongue and groping weren't implied and not an expected part of flirting upon first meeting someone.

Hem...actually those situations happen regularly but yeah, whatever

And, most French women wouldn't have tolerated that either in the same scenario.

Most ? You know, I know some stories "worse" than that
I'm not myself usually into that but once drunk...

So, I'm not buying your argument that it was a cultural misunderstanding. And, no I'm more than a tourist in France. I have some family there.

Are you trying to tell me that you know my culture better than me ? That's going to be funny

 

[Guartho]

Sounds like you're both assuming French culture is one massively uniform monolith of uniform uniformity.

 

[Shaytan]

Sounds like you're both assuming French culture is one massively uniform monolith of uniform uniformity.

Not really. I was actually going to write that some women will accept those situations and some don't but I changed my post several times to not state the obvious etc etc...But that was not my initial objection to Mr Awe's post. I wanted to say that when the guy said he wanted to kiss her, he meant exactly what he did, there was no manipulation. That's my initial objection.
For some reasons, Mr Awe reacts like he wants to teach me morality instead "what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, what is expected bla bla bla"

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It would seem that righteous anger over a wrong that others may not have even suffered is more virulent than actual anger over something that one's own self has suffered.

 

[Guartho]

I was actually going to write that some women will accept those situations and some don't but I changed my post several times to not state the obvious etc etc...

Well there's your mistake. You've got to dumb it down for 3rd parties like me who are not part of the discussion. Try to be a little more considerate next time.

 

[thestrangequark]

Mr Awe, I just want to make one more effort to get something across to you, as you don't seem to be aware: it is tremendously demeaning, patronizing, and hurtful to insist upon continuing with this hyperbole. What happened on that bridge was not manipulation, assault, abuse, molestation, or harassment. Even if you cannot personally comprehend this fact, out of respect to me, as a woman who has actually experienced real assault, abuse, molestation, and harassment, and out of respect for others who have experienced real assault, abuse, molestation, and harassment, at least try to be more aware about your usage of such terms, and concede that as the person to whom this happened, that I am not a naive idiot, or a little girl who needs protection, and that it is my right as a competent, grown woman to determine my personal boundaries, whether or not they agree with what you would feel comfortable with, or what you assume "most women" would deem appropriate.