Sexism and Feminism in TOS

[Navaros]

I'd rather have TOS be "sexist" and not have bland, boring, pointless women characters - like "Number One" was - dragging the show down. And rather than modern Trek shows which are full of bland, boring women characters that drag the modern Trek shows down based on an "affirmative action" type of principle which casts women solely based on their sex, not because they add anything to the show. Can't get much more sexist of a policy than that in my view.

Seems to me that "not being sexist" on Trek translates into worse television. Not worth the tradeoff in my view.

Mini skirts are not sexist in my view. I would say forcing women to wear pants as if they are men in modern Trek shows is what is sexist.

 

[Plum]

^^^
Dude, give Number One a chance. She only had one show.

 

[Timo]

...And was balanced by the bland, boring, pointless male character of Christopher Pike.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DavidFalkayn]

Mini skirts are not sexist in my view. I would say forcing women to wear pants as if they are men in modern Trek shows is what is sexist.

What many people today don't realize was that in the 60s miniskirts were seen as a symbol of rebellion and female liberation--not as sexist.

In many ways, today modern sci fi television has a new stereotype: the "Tough Chick with a Gun". I would contend that that is just as stereotypical as the yeoman falling out of her dress stereotype. That's what makes Number One such an unique individual: She was competent, self-assured, confident in her abilities, attractive and knew it, and she was neither the bimbo nor the 'tough chick with a gun'. I guess that's what scared the network execs of that time--as it does now.

 

[Plum]

^^^
Quite right... the mini-skirt were a symbol of femininity back then. Today such a costume might be considered sexist in the same context.

Today, women in TV and film are often shunt into sexist roles just as in the past. The girl with the gun is just an easy way to present a woman as strong, but really, it's a sex tease. The warrior woman characters of the 90s have morphed into a sexist stereotype.

Today we still get a set of female characters in film and TV. A girlfriend of mine has fun identifying the cardboard 2d aspect of each one... the friend, the available slut, the mom, the love interest, and so on. Just as Hollywoodland makes all of it's characters 2d garbage, instead of fully fleshed out, resembling actual human characters, so too are the women even more noticeably shunt into a small set of roles.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

DavidFalkayn said:
That's what makes Number One such an unique individual: She was competent, self-assured, confident in her abilities, attractive and knew it, and she was neither the bimbo nor the 'tough chick with a gun'. I guess that's what scared the network execs of that time--as it does now.

According to Justman and Solow, in their Trek tell-all, the network wasn't scared of the strong female XO but that she was Roddenberry's mistress and couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. They didn't object to the character but to the actress. The "who does she think she is?" has become one of the great Trek myths perpetuated by Roddenberry, according to them.

 

[Balthier the Great]

Just to point out -- if you get married, you aren't a "mistress" a girlfriend at the time maybe, but a mistress is someone you cheat on your wife with.

Anyway, I think the concept behind #1 and pike would work today, so unless audiences in 1960 were somehow stupider than today's reality TV fans -- either the execs were retarded or the recasting (and I mean all of it) was done for some other reason. I won't pretend I know what it really was based on second hand reports. Only two people know the full story, one's dead and the other doesn't seem to be talking.

One thing that does seem weird is that the miniskirts and multiethnic crew didn't start until after. It seems more like "yeah, this is still MY show" or something, so other bits of the myth may be ... streched a bit.

 

[TiberiusK]

middyseafort said:

DavidFalkayn said:
That's what makes Number One such an unique individual: She was competent, self-assured, confident in her abilities, attractive and knew it, and she was neither the bimbo nor the 'tough chick with a gun'. I guess that's what scared the network execs of that time--as it does now.

According to Justman and Solow, in their Trek tell-all, the network wasn't scared of the strong female XO but that she was Roddenberry's mistress and couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. They didn't object to the character but to the actress. The "who does she think she is?" has become one of the great Trek myths perpetuated by Roddenberry, according to them.

I'm not so sure that I buy Justman and Solow's explanation. GR certainly perpetuated myths, and this may be one. But, if you take their book as truth: NBC never did anything wrong. NBC was a very enlightened network when it came to gender and race. No one ever had a problem with Uhura or the interracial kiss. etc. etc.

Now, I really trust Bob Justman's account, but much of that book is pure Solow, who paints a very flattering portrait of NBC (he was an NBC exec). Justman, working for Desilu/Paramount has no way to confirm what Solow is saying about what really happened at the network.

The truth must lie inbetween GR's lies about NBC and Solow's portrait of NBC as a saint.

If their grip about Number One was solely due to Majel's acting, then the role could have been recast easier. Instead, they got rid of strong female character entirely.

Of course, that might have been GR's decision so that he wouldn't have to explain to his mistress why he was recasting her role.

We may never know the truth.

 

[DavidFalkayn]

One thing that does seem weird is that the miniskirts and multiethnic crew didn't start until after. It seems more like "yeah, this is still MY show" or something, so other bits of the myth may be ... streched a bit.

The miniskirt didn't really come to people's notice until 1965 in Britain and didn't catch on in the US until 1966, so, when they were filming the pilot it really had just literally hit the scene. The topless dress actually came out a year or two earlier--a woman in Chicago got busted (pun intended) for wearing one in public.

So really, the miniskirts was Trek taking the lead in trendsetting.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

BalthierTheGreat said:
Just to point out -- if you get married, you aren't a "mistress" a girlfriend at the time maybe, but a mistress is someone you cheat on your wife with.

At the time of TOS and, certainly, at the time of "The Cage," Majel Barret, or M. Leigh Hudac, was Roddenberry's mistress. Roddenberry was married at the time to Eileen Roddenberry; a marriage that produced his two daughters. Barrett and Roddenberry weren't married until 1969 in a Shinto-Buddhist ceremony in Japan, after his marriage to Eileen ended.

The term's usage in this case is correct per your definition as Majel Barrett at the time was engaged in an affair with a married man, Gene Roddenberry. Just because he married her after their tristes does not negate the usage.

TiberiusK said:

middyseafort said:

DavidFalkayn said:
That's what makes Number One such an unique individual: She was competent, self-assured, confident in her abilities, attractive and knew it, and she was neither the bimbo nor the 'tough chick with a gun'. I guess that's what scared the network execs of that time--as it does now.

According to Justman and Solow, in their Trek tell-all, the network wasn't scared of the strong female XO but that she was Roddenberry's mistress and couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. They didn't object to the character but to the actress. The "who does she think she is?" has become one of the great Trek myths perpetuated by Roddenberry, according to them.

I'm not so sure that I buy Justman and Solow's explanation. GR certainly perpetuated myths, and this may be one. But, if you take their book as truth: NBC never did anything wrong. NBC was a very enlightened network when it came to gender and race. No one ever had a problem with Uhura or the interracial kiss. etc. etc.

Now, I really trust Bob Justman's account, but much of that book is pure Solow, who paints a very flattering portrait of NBC (he was an NBC exec). Justman, working for Desilu/Paramount has no way to confirm what Solow is saying about what really happened at the network.

The truth must lie inbetween GR's lies about NBC and Solow's portrait of NBC as a saint.

If their grip about Number One was solely due to Majel's acting, then the role could have been recast easier. Instead, they got rid of strong female character entirely.

Of course, that might have been GR's decision so that he wouldn't have to explain to his mistress why he was recasting her role.

We may never know the truth.

Oh, the truth, no doubt, is in the spaces between the myths and the so-called truths; that is why I stated according to their book. I was offering it as evidence, not gospel truth, much in the same way I would offer it in an article or academic paper. I guess it's the former journalist in me.

I felt that Majel wasn't a strong co-star against Jeffery Hunter, but loved her as Lwaxana Troi. Then again, it also might be the manner in which Hunter played Pike; both were reserved characters. I think that if you have two reserved main cast members, there is nothing to contrast against like in the Kirk-Spock/Shatner-Nimoy dynamic. Kirk was more colorful, while Spock was cooler.


Also, if Roddenberry was so progressive, he could've corrected the network's decision in regards to a female first officer in TNG by making Riker a woman or Picard even.

 

[3D Master]

darkwing_duck1 said:
I still find it amusing that the miniskirts, now considered highly sexist and offensive, were AT THE TIME considered VERY pro-feminist, depicting the empowerment of female sexuality.

I was also amused by GR's musings on the "Inside Star Trek" album from the 70s about how he'd originally written the crew complement to be 50/50 male/female. NBC squawked, afraid that "it would look like there was a lot of 'foolin around' going on". NBC finally said he could have "30% women, no more". He shrugged and said OK, figuring that 30% "healthy young women should be able to handle the crew".

Goes to show you how the man could be both feminist and mysoginist at the same time...

Or have a HUGE sense of irony. I think the point was that he made NBC look idiotic if they thought that people work together there won't be any fooling around going on if only there's a certain disparity in gender breakdown.

 

[MikeH92467]

^^^all such a disaparity really does is create a target rich environment for one side or the other.

 

[3D Master]

BalthierTheGreat said:
Just to point out -- if you get married, you aren't a "mistress" a girlfriend at the time maybe, but a mistress is someone you cheat on your wife with.

Unless your in an S&M relationship, than she'll be the mistress regardless...

Just couldn't resist...

 

[3D Master]

TiberiusK said:

middyseafort said:

DavidFalkayn said:
That's what makes Number One such an unique individual: She was competent, self-assured, confident in her abilities, attractive and knew it, and she was neither the bimbo nor the 'tough chick with a gun'. I guess that's what scared the network execs of that time--as it does now.

According to Justman and Solow, in their Trek tell-all, the network wasn't scared of the strong female XO but that she was Roddenberry's mistress and couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. They didn't object to the character but to the actress. The "who does she think she is?" has become one of the great Trek myths perpetuated by Roddenberry, according to them.

I'm not so sure that I buy Justman and Solow's explanation. GR certainly perpetuated myths, and this may be one. But, if you take their book as truth: NBC never did anything wrong. NBC was a very enlightened network when it came to gender and race. No one ever had a problem with Uhura or the interracial kiss. etc. etc.

Now, I really trust Bob Justman's account, but much of that book is pure Solow, who paints a very flattering portrait of NBC (he was an NBC exec). Justman, working for Desilu/Paramount has no way to confirm what Solow is saying about what really happened at the network.

The truth must lie inbetween GR's lies about NBC and Solow's portrait of NBC as a saint.

If their grip about Number One was solely due to Majel's acting, then the role could have been recast easier. Instead, they got rid of strong female character entirely.

Of course, that might have been GR's decision so that he wouldn't have to explain to his mistress why he was recasting her role.

We may never know the truth.

I think it's more like a combination of both. I actually read a post on this board some time ago of a guy who said his mother was one of those "Who does she think she is?" types.

Gene wants it to look like audience reaction was the sole reason of letting "number one" go.

While just wants us to think "she's Gene's girlfriend and supposedly can't act" (the latter I think she's proven wrong) is the sole reason "number one" was axed.

In the end it's probably both. They didn't like the role, they didn't that she was Gene's girlfriend, and then (some) of the test audience has a (sexist-inclined?) aversion to it? Time to remove her.