Well put. You and Plum could both write dissertations on Trek and Feminism. Both of you make very valid points.
Sexism and Feminism in TOS
- Thread starter TiberiusK
- Start date
Well put. You and Plum could both write dissertations on Trek and Feminism. Both of you make very valid points.
I wrote a similar paper once in a Cultural Studies class at university. It was called "Where Woman Has Gone Before - Star Trek’s Vision of the Future as a Reflection of Gender Stereotypes in 1960s America" and was based on the thesis that the Star Trek women served mainly as markers for the affirmation of male cultural dominance, which was to say that no woman, except Number One, ever seemed to be truly defined as a person within herself, but always in relation to a man (e.g. Chapel joined Starfleet not to have a career, but to find her missing fiancé; Rand being not an officer, but Kirk's secretary, as it were, etc.). I posted this paper here back when I wrote it, to mostly violent opposition. It seems to be something of a touchy issue to some of us fans that there was in fact at least one area of TOS that seems less a grand vision of a better future, but more a simple reflection of real-life circumstances of the day - and not to criticize it like Trek did with many issues of its time, but to apparently affirm it.
That said, I do think today that Trek, as a myth centered around male heroes - as so many myths are-, necessarily relegated women to supporting roles, where a fully-formed characterization was not as important.
This will form the basis for my master's thesis, which I'm currently writing, also on Star Trek, but this time about the construction of masculinity. It is my belief there, too, that Roddenberry tried to really make a full-fledged extrapolation on how gender roles would look like in the future in "The Cage" and that he wrote Pike as a reflection of war veterans who came home to an utterly changed society where women, all of a sudden, has become part of the workforce, which, among other things, called into question the traditional role of man as the leader, provider, etc.
When that fell through with test audiences, he returned to a, say, more uplifting vision of manhood where Kirk was once again the larger-than-life hero type, with his doubts sometimes, but never a wish for retirement.
Plum said:
^^^
I donno, I'm looking through Trekcore and that's not a camel toe to me. *shrug*... I think we need Shatmandu to make a call on this one.
linky to Trekcore
Dear God, I've found my speciality.
I remember reading somewhere about Kellerman's camel toe pants. Probably those Altman knock-off, unauthorized books from the old days.
Joe, arbiter of the base
Boy. When I was in college we studied literature.
I'd be very interested in reading that paper and your thesis, sounds interesting. Are you getting your Master's in Cultural Studies or Media Studies? Currently, I am getting mine in Creative Writing.
Of course one can counter that in the 23rd century women are both confident enough to be professionals, yet still dress provocatively. In other words, I may be a professional but I can still be damn sexy. And it is hoped that men and the attitudes towards sexual taboos and such are so mature that it becomes a non-issue.
I'd never thought about it like that, there's taking the times and what was relevant to people back then and using it to inform the background of Pikes lines about "getting used to women on the bridge.", really spot on.
I'd like to read more too, I think you're hitting the proverbial nail.
Thanks for the thread. As a female fan of TOS, this subject does interest me. I certainly have my own opinions, but my basic thoughts boil down to this - when it comes to the question of whether or not Star Trek is a sexist show, people will see what they want to see.
In other words, if people are inclined to view TOS as basically progressive in its portrayal of women, then they will find numerous examples of "progressiveness" from the show to confirm their inclination. If, however, people are inclined to view TOS as basically sexist in its portrayal of women, then they will list numerous examples of sexism to support their contention.
I try to avoid making a sweeping judgment in either direction regarding Star Trek's portrayal of women. Did TOS have a progressive attitude towards women in some ways? Absolutely! Was TOS consistently progressive in its portrayal of women? Absolutely not! Does TOS contain sexist elements? Absolutely! Was the entire show completely sexist? Absolutely not!
I find it helpful to remember that TOS is a 40-year-old television show. I always try to place TOS in its appropriate historical and cultural context before talking about TOS and sexism (or racism, or any other cultural issue). It is rather ridiculous to apply the standards and sensibilities of today to a show that was made over 40 years ago.
In other words, if people are inclined to view TOS as basically progressive in its portrayal of women, then they will find numerous examples of "progressiveness" from the show to confirm their inclination. If, however, people are inclined to view TOS as basically sexist in its portrayal of women, then they will list numerous examples of sexism to support their contention.
I try to avoid making a sweeping judgment in either direction regarding Star Trek's portrayal of women. Did TOS have a progressive attitude towards women in some ways? Absolutely! Was TOS consistently progressive in its portrayal of women? Absolutely not! Does TOS contain sexist elements? Absolutely! Was the entire show completely sexist? Absolutely not!
I find it helpful to remember that TOS is a 40-year-old television show. I always try to place TOS in its appropriate historical and cultural context before talking about TOS and sexism (or racism, or any other cultural issue). It is rather ridiculous to apply the standards and sensibilities of today to a show that was made over 40 years ago.
This is one of the best perspectives I've ever seen on this subject. :thumbsup:
I will add that my view on TOS' portrayal of women is partly coloured by my view on how strong female characters were often portrayed in older films. Many older films portrayed strong woman has smart, perceprive, sometimes sassy and witty, usually secure in their own sexuality and all the while being utterly feminine.
In contrast I often find many strong female characters today to be very unisex and often little different from their male counterparts. It isn't really which is better or worse but that it's different.
And just to muddy the waters: Pike's line about ``getting used to women on the bridge'' was trimmed from the scenes used in ``The Menagerie''. So at some point in 1966/67 it was decided that wasn't something worth making part of the Official Canon.Plum said:
I'd never thought about it like that, there's taking the times and what was relevant to people back then and using it to inform the background of Pikes lines about "getting used to women on the bridge.", really spot on.
(I'd thought it had been pretty well settled, though, that Number One was dropped less because the networks didn't want one of those uppity women where they could be seen on-screen and more because they didn't want one of the adulterous Roddenberry's mistresses to have a critical role in the show.)
Nebusj said:
And just to muddy the waters: Pike's line about ``getting used to women on the bridge'' was trimmed from the scenes used in ``The Menagerie''. So at some point in 1966/67 it was decided that wasn't something worth making part of the Official Canon.Plum said:
I'd never thought about it like that, there's taking the times and what was relevant to people back then and using it to inform the background of Pikes lines about "getting used to women on the bridge.", really spot on.
(I'd thought it had been pretty well settled, though, that Number One was dropped less because the networks didn't want one of those uppity women where they could be seen on-screen and more because they didn't want one of the adulterous Roddenberry's mistresses to have a critical role in the show.)
Actually, I don't think they would have cared if they had thought she could act well enough to carry the part.
At any rate, an earlier poster stole my thunder. TOS tends to be very much like a Rohrshach (sp?) test where people project their own values on to it. Certainly GR was, shall we say, less than perfect (by today's standards) in the way he dealt with women and some of that certainly comes through. However, I don't think it's being overly fan boyish to say that he really was trying to portray a more idealistic future where sexual equality had become a reality.
Of course, you can't change the fact that while the show was about the 23rd century, it was written for a 20th century mass audience. When you're trying to make shows that will appeal to the broadest possible audience there are going to be times when idealism is sacrificed to pragmatism.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I still find it amusing that the miniskirts, now considered highly sexist and offensive, were AT THE TIME considered VERY pro-feminist, depicting the empowerment of female sexuality.
I was also amused by GR's musings on the "Inside Star Trek" album from the 70s about how he'd originally written the crew complement to be 50/50 male/female. NBC squawked, afraid that "it would look like there was a lot of 'foolin around' going on". NBC finally said he could have "30% women, no more". He shrugged and said OK, figuring that 30% "healthy young women should be able to handle the crew".
Goes to show you how the man could be both feminist and mysoginist at the same time...
I was also amused by GR's musings on the "Inside Star Trek" album from the 70s about how he'd originally written the crew complement to be 50/50 male/female. NBC squawked, afraid that "it would look like there was a lot of 'foolin around' going on". NBC finally said he could have "30% women, no more". He shrugged and said OK, figuring that 30% "healthy young women should be able to handle the crew".
Goes to show you how the man could be both feminist and mysoginist at the same time...