Seven of Nine

[exodus]

^ Because they wanted to? Because their characters were easier to write for?

You said yourself, Exodus, that Tim Russ is an excellent actor, and I agree. He is. And yet he didn't get nearly as many episodes centered around his character as did Mulgrew, Ryan and Picardo. I don't blame that on his competence (edit: and I don't blame the other actors either, by the way), and I don't think you do, either. I think it was because of other factors. So why couldn't it be because of other factors with some of the other actors as well?

In any case, Tim Russ shows that there are other reasons besides competence why one member of the cast might not get as many scenes written for him as did other members of the cast. Doesn't it?

Yes, it shows a Vulcan character can't carry an ep. without another character to play off of. Which is why the eps. Russ did get, he was teamed up with Neelix, Mulgrew and even Tori Petty to bring emotional value to a character that can't show it.

Besides, I already stated in post #192 that it's more than just the writing. I'm also not sure what the resistance is in noting not every actor is good in their role.

 

[Guy Gardener]

saying that Voyagers problem was the writing and they just needed new writers is like telling a sick person with brain cancer that their problem is their brain and all they need is a new brain.

Fish rots from the head?

Icheb was like 16ish? the actor too? Ishish. But the Borg decided that he needed yet still more maturation? So they might "always" define mature as being mid 20 something. So what exactly might seven's apparent age have seemed to be at that her second birth when she was actually 13ish if not already 26ish already that she spent the next 13 years halted and stagnated forever 26 as her mind matured in the background at AP like computerized speeds gleefully within the comfort of Unimatrix zero that she might have spent hundreds or thousands of relative years Boffing that bloke in a serious mature and committed relationship that... As Borg, how slowly was she aging? Isn't it convenient that Voyager found this forever 26 year old woman when she was a 26 year old woman and not a 13 year old child? Or for that matter an 80 year old woman who still seemed to be 26?

Nothing wrong with this, just an odd coincidence.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tori Petty

typo?

3 times stronger, 5 times faster and 8 times smarter than a human being?

He shouldn't fuck up and every obstacle that would make Kim suck his thumb and cry for affirmative action would be pulverized into atoms.

Tuvok should have been the baby of MacGyver and John Rambo.

I saw this maybe once, when he secret agentted himself into the midst of an enemy mine in Warlord, but playing hide and seek against a paranoid psychotic telepath is hard.

 

[JustKate]

^ Because they wanted to? Because their characters were easier to write for?

You said yourself, Exodus, that Tim Russ is an excellent actor, and I agree. He is. And yet he didn't get nearly as many episodes centered around his character as did Mulgrew, Ryan and Picardo. I don't blame that on his competence (edit: and I don't blame the other actors either, by the way), and I don't think you do, either. I think it was because of other factors. So why couldn't it be because of other factors with some of the other actors as well?

In any case, Tim Russ shows that there are other reasons besides competence why one member of the cast might not get as many scenes written for him as did other members of the cast. Doesn't it?

Yes, it shows a Vulcan character can't carry an ep. without another character to play off of. Which is why the eps. Russ did get, he was teamed up with Neelix, Mulgrew and even Tori Petty to bring emotional value to a character that can't show it.

I'm sorry, Exodus, but...there are very few cases in which any character - Vulcan, human, whatever - can carry an ep without another character to play off of. That's what acting is, or so I've always understood. There's a reason why there aren't many (or any) one-man TV shows.

You don't admire Beltran's, Wang's or McNeil's acting. Fine. That's your opinion and you absolutely have a right to it. Why not just leave it at that? I didn't disagree with you in order to try to change your mind. I disagreed with you simply because this is a discussion board and so I wanted to state my opinion as part of the discussion. If I'd agreed with you, I would have stated that opinion, too. I mean, I am not usually disagreeable just for the fun of it.

 

[exodus]

^ Because they wanted to? Because their characters were easier to write for?

You said yourself, Exodus, that Tim Russ is an excellent actor, and I agree. He is. And yet he didn't get nearly as many episodes centered around his character as did Mulgrew, Ryan and Picardo. I don't blame that on his competence (edit: and I don't blame the other actors either, by the way), and I don't think you do, either. I think it was because of other factors. So why couldn't it be because of other factors with some of the other actors as well?

In any case, Tim Russ shows that there are other reasons besides competence why one member of the cast might not get as many scenes written for him as did other members of the cast. Doesn't it?

Yes, it shows a Vulcan character can't carry an ep. without another character to play off of. Which is why the eps. Russ did get, he was teamed up with Neelix, Mulgrew and even Tori Petty to bring emotional value to a character that can't show it.

I'm sorry, Exodus, but...there are very few cases in which any character - Vulcan, human, whatever - can carry an ep without another character to play off of. That's what acting is, or so I've always understood. There's a reason why there aren't many (or any) one-man TV shows.

You don't admire Beltran's, Wang's or McNeil's acting. Fine. That's your opinion and you absolutely have a right to it. Why not just leave it at that? I didn't disagree with you in order to try to change your mind. I disagreed with you simply because this is a discussion board and so I wanted to state my opinion as part of the discussion. If I'd agreed with you, I would have stated that opinion, too. I mean, I am not usually disagreeable just for the fun of it.

But they aren't my opinions, they are the opinions stated by your peers that post on these boards and others like them. If they were my opinions, I wouldn't be using the word "fans" or "Writers/producers".

Never once have given my personal stance on any of them in this thread. As you said, this is a discussion board and that is exactly what I thought we were doing.

 

[JustKate]

I'm sorry, but I fail to discern the difference - you evidently agree with these opinions or you wouldn't have repeated them. If this assumption of mine is in error, please tell me how.

And "fans" is still meaningless (as is "the writers" - which writers? when? where?) You have no hard data; what you have is anecdotal evidence based on your time here on the Trek BBS and whatever other Trek inputs you have. Anecdotal evidence is interesting, and it can give a person pointers about how a particular group might feel, but it doesn't prove anything because it's completely subjective. It's too easy to notice only those opinions that agree with your own.

And another reason it doesn't prove anything is because on forums like this, the "I hate" people tend to be very vocal, followed by the the "I love" people...but that leaves a whole lot of people somewhere in the middle (the "I don't love but I don't hate either" people - and on the subject of both Beltran's and McNeil's acting, that's where I'd place myself) whose opinions are largely uncounted because they aren't ever as vocal as the people with more extreme views. That's not to say anything against people with strong views - I have some of those myself - but the loudest "voices" are the ones that get heard, and in such disputes, the people with the strongest opinions tend to have the loudest voices.

Anecdotal evidence is conclusive when it is backed up by hard data...or when a person decides it's conclusive because it fits in with what he or she prefers to believe. Other than that, it's just...people talking.

 

[teya]

^

Those fans are an opinionated lot, aren't they? What's that line from Jerry McGuire? (I think that's the right movie...) "Show me the money!"

Well, one of the most-commonly reiterated pieces of conventional wisdom I've seen on Trek boards is that Seven "took over the show" when she arrived. Like a freight train, she ran over the rest of the cast and stole Kate's show from her.

Except... the stats don't bear that out. Christopher Bennett did a review of the amount of screen time devoted to the various cast members in the recent ST mag devoted to Voyager. I did the same thing years ago, and his analysis said the same thing mine did:

Voyager became a "big three" show--with Janeway, the Doctor & Seven getting most of the focus. Seven had a huge 4th season (which makes sense, since she was new), then the attention devoted to her dropped off. The Doctor, meanwhile, continued to grow in attention, till by the 7th season (when, to hear some folks talk, it was All Seven-All the Time), he was #2 in terms of lines, episodes & attention--behind only Janeway.

No matter how many times someone posts line counts or breaks down episodes by attention paid to characters, it doesn't matter. The conventional wisdom still is that Seven took over the show.

 

[JustKate]

Teya...you're using logic here. Isn't that cheating or something?

For what it's worth, which isn't much, that (the Big Three, with the Doc and Seven behind Janeway and the seventh season being the Doc's big year) is my recollection as well.

 

[exodus]

I'm sorry, but I fail to discern the difference - you evidently agree with these opinions or you wouldn't have repeated them. If this assumption of mine is in error, please tell me how.

The word you're looking for is "objectionable", the ability to understand and relate to others points of view even though you don't share them yourself.

Besides, I politely told you these weren't my opinions. Please return that by not continuing to insist that I do. Tells not turn this hostile, ok.

 

[teya]

Teya...you're using logic here. Isn't that cheating or something?

The funny thing was my watching the Voyager DVDs and counting lines, scenes, episodes, plotlines.

I'm such a statistician...

 

[JustKate]

The word you're looking for is "objectionable", the ability to understand and relate to others points of view even though you don't share them yourself.

But I do understand, if you're talking about opinions regarding the VOY actors. I just don't agree with everybody. How could I when everybody has different opinions? I can understand plenty of things I don't agree with.

 

[JustKate]

Teya...you're using logic here. Isn't that cheating or something?

The funny thing was my watching the Voyager DVDs and counting lines, scenes, episodes, plotlines.

I'm such a statistician...

No! Geek alert! Geek alert! Geek alert!

 

[Guy Gardener]

But it's not like she took over the show by accident? She was "made" to save (take over) the show. This was the TPTV's most blatant and sinister attempt to foster up with what they assumed were the prime needs of their target demographic... She was created (And cast) by and for spinmarketing to make money (better and faster) prolonging the deathrattle they called the airtime of the Voyager Story.

They had to fire people to hire her.

You don't think that scared the rest of the cast into behaving a little? Sucking up a little harder that they too might be fired to get another blonder boobier girl to save the show more, and another and another, until the show was nothing but blonde and boobs?

She was a monkey on roller skates, hells, she was Poochie.

I was going to say that Sleeping with Braga (in a completely socially acceptable and respectable way) was just icing on the cake... But I think it's more apt to say that it was faecal speckle on the head rim.

O. Apparently "Rick Berman" is the only man that can save the 24 Universe if you beleive the dialog from last week. Braga or Coto shamelessly dropped the name of their old boss into the script. I laughed.

 

[exodus]

The word you're looking for is "objectionable", the ability to understand and relate to others points of view even though you don't share them yourself.

But I do understand, if you're talking about opinions regarding the VOY actors. I just don't agree with everybody. How could I when everybody has different opinions? I can understand plenty of things I don't agree with.

So if you do, why do you keep insisting my opinions are the same as others after I explained they weren't?

 

[JustKate]

^ OK, fine: What are your opinions then?

The reason I ask is that I see no point in debating the opinions of "the fans" and "the writers" because while the words "fan" and "writer" represent people, they aren't people. They are generalities. I could come up with generalities, too, but what's the point?

For the purposes of this forum, "the fans" are the fans who are here participating in this discussion. So why don't you tell me what you think? And we'll go from there.

 

[exodus]

^ OK, fine: What are your opinions then?

The reason I ask is that I see no point in debating the opinions of "the fans" and "the writers" because while the words "fan" and "writer" represent people, they aren't people. They are generalities. I could come up with generalities, too, but what's the point?

For the purposes of this forum, "the fans" are the fans who are here participating in this discussion. So why don't you tell me what you think? And we'll go from there.

We already did pages ago.

 

[JustKate]

^ OK, fine: What are your opinions then?

The reason I ask is that I see no point in debating the opinions of "the fans" and "the writers" because while the words "fan" and "writer" represent people, they aren't people. They are generalities. I could come up with generalities, too, but what's the point?

For the purposes of this forum, "the fans" are the fans who are here participating in this discussion. So why don't you tell me what you think? And we'll go from there.

We already did pages ago.

We already did...what? Go on from "what you think"? If so, in what way have I erred in my assumptions about your opinions?

Apparently I have offended you in some way, but I have no idea how. Really. So tell me what mistake I've made, and we'll see if we can get it straightened out, and if we can't, at least we'll know what we're disagreeing on. Because right now, I have no idea. I thought I did, but I was wrong, and when I tried to correct it, I was apparently wrong again. So I need your help.

 

[exodus]

^ OK, fine: What are your opinions then?

The reason I ask is that I see no point in debating the opinions of "the fans" and "the writers" because while the words "fan" and "writer" represent people, they aren't people. They are generalities. I could come up with generalities, too, but what's the point?

For the purposes of this forum, "the fans" are the fans who are here participating in this discussion. So why don't you tell me what you think? And we'll go from there.

We already did pages ago.

We already did...what? Go on from "what you think"? If so, in what way have I erred in my assumptions about your opinions?

Apparently I have offended you in some way, but I have no idea how. Really. So tell me what mistake I've made, and we'll see if we can get it straightened out, and if we can't, at least we'll know what we're disagreeing on. Because right now, I have no idea. I thought I did, but I was wrong, and when I tried to correct it, I was apparently wrong again. So I need your help.

I offence taken in anyway, I'm just finding our conversation to be going in circles right now. That's the only issue.

Maybe we should restart:

Hi, I'm exodus!(everybody:Hello Exodus!)

I love Voyager and don't find much wrong with it.
I enjoy it for light entertainment and can probably explain any inconsistancy with an out of the box answer.
I'm upfront with my answers with the "robust" way I write but don't take offence at it. For some reason it just comes off that way.

That's about all I got.

 

[JustKate]

Darn you, Exodus, how dare you write a post that I cannot disagree with?

I guess I could try, but I'd have to work at it pretty hard.

 

[teya]

But it's not like she took over the show by accident?

No. She didn't take over the show.