Serpents Among the Ruins -- Reflections

[Deano2099]

Well if I were him I'd have got up, whisperd to the teacher what had happened and that I had to leave, thank the kids calmly and tell them I had to go and when they watch the news later they would understand why, start giving orders for the land borders to be closed, aircraft grounded and rouge ones intercepted etc...get my ass to a secured location and make sure the line of succesion is likewise protected in case Im taken out...

They're not totally analogous situations granted, I guess my point was: people fumble the ball occasionally. They hesitate under moments of huge pressure and sometimes make the wrong calls, even if they were deemed to be one of the best Captain's in Starfleet, or the best American to run the US.

If anything I think the years and years of having Picard virtually always make the right call were less realistic than seeing someone screw up on occasion. But while the show might establish certain Captains as almost infallible, it's certainly never established that all Captains are. To the contrary, the commanders of other vessels often played Picard's foolish foils throughout the show, there to be wrong while our hero was right.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

but Harryman was a commander on a bridge the only one empowerd to make the decisions, akin to the commander of an aircraft carrier or something.
He, unlike a civilian, is supposed to be trained to calculate the situation and make decisions fast...not fumble

I'd just like to point out that you're holding the commanding officer of a ship to a higher standard of decision-making capacity than you are an elected head of state.

No, I don't read that as holding them to a higher standard, just acknowledging that they're different situations -- a commander-in-chief has the luxury to think things over, while a commander on the scene has to be good at snap judgments.

I did say above that Harriman did exhibit a certain lack of confidence. My point was that, aside from that, he showed himself to be a capable commander, someone who could be a good captain given more seasoning -- not the utter incompetent he's often perceived to be.

Thats exactly what I was going to say.

Just diffrent roles not higher or lower standerds.

A CinC is supposed to be calm and think things over. The candidates in debates BS alot about how tough and agressive they'd be but in reality you have to keep a cool head, in one of the dem debates they were asked they're first thoughts if the country was attacked again by terrorists and they all, except one, said retailiation, now that was a moronic answer for all of them to give, and I don't think any of them, or I hope none of them, would have that first on their mind, the only right answer given was that their first thought would be managing the aftermath of the attack and securing the country against a follow up one or any others that might be imminent.

A starship/military commander has to do BOTH, look after the ships status AND think about retailation if they're attacked.


Deano good point about Picard but they did make up for it later, Janeway and Sisko screwd up a few times

 

[KRAD]

If anything I think the years and years of having Picard virtually always make the right call were less realistic than seeing someone screw up on occasion. But while the show might establish certain Captains as almost infallible, it's certainly never established that all Captains are. To the contrary, the commanders of other vessels often played Picard's foolish foils throughout the show, there to be wrong while our hero was right.

But, as Christopher said upstream, that's a common trope of dramatic TV. And it's not just Picard who had guest captains brought in to make him look good (Donald Varley, Benjamin Maxwell). Kirk had Ron Tracey and Matt Decker. Sisko had Cal Hudson and Declan Keogh. Janeway had Ransom. (Archer didn't -- he had Erika Hernandez, who actually accomplished the amazing feat of being more interesting than Archer despite only being in three episodes....)

 

[William Leisner]

(Archer didn't -- he had Erika Hernandez, who actually accomplished the amazing feat of being more interesting than Archer despite only being in three episodes....)

Nothing so amazing in that; Porthos was more interesting a character than Archer...

 

[KRAD]

^ Yeah, but Porthos was in multiple episodes.

 

[Christopher]

And it's not just Picard who had guest captains brought in to make him look good (Donald Varley, Benjamin Maxwell).

Wouldn't Jellico be a better example? Donald Varley didn't do anything that made him look particularly bad, other than dying. He seemed as competent as any other guest captain.

 

[KRAD]

^ What, like saying it's "premature" to evacuate the civilians from his ship five minutes before his ship blew up? Like risking an interstellar war over an archaeological curiosity? I'm sorry, but Varley was a fucking moron, and 1000 people died because of it.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^ What, like saying it's "premature" to evacuate the civilians from his ship five minutes before his ship blew up? Like risking an interstellar war over an archaeological curiosity? I'm sorry, but Varley was a fucking moron, and 1000 people died because of it.

Picard: "Donald, you were my friend but what a fucking moron!"

 

[Christopher]

^ What, like saying it's "premature" to evacuate the civilians from his ship five minutes before his ship blew up? Like risking an interstellar war over an archaeological curiosity? I'm sorry, but Varley was a fucking moron, and 1000 people died because of it.

On the first point, the core breach was treated as a complete surprise to everyone. This was before the writers started overusing the phrase "warp core breach" to the point of ridiculousness; the briefing afterward made it quite clear that a core breach was considered to be a virtual impossibility, something that there was no sane reason to expect. At the time Varley said an evacuation would be premature, the situation did not yet appear to be critical, just "serious."

For that matter, what about all those times when Picard took the whole ship into battle rather than leaving the civilians behind in the saucer?

On the second point, as Varley said, his concern was not just finding "an archaeological curiosity," but making sure the Romulans didn't get their hands on the Iconians' gateway technology. He violated the Neutral Zone on an urgent matter of Federation security -- and so did Picard later in the episode, remember.

So if Varley was a moron, then so is Picard.

 

[Cicero]

And it's not just Picard who had guest captains brought in to make him look good (Donald Varley, Benjamin Maxwell).

Wouldn't Jellico be a better example? Donald Varley didn't do anything that made him look particularly bad, other than dying. He seemed as competent as any other guest captain.

What did Jellico do that could be looked on poorly? He acquitted himself excellently in 'Chain of Command.' The Enterprise's senior officers, however (Data excepted) behaved poorly, Riker (my favorite) especially.

 

[Timo]

Also, Jellico is a rather strange case of a guest star, as he directly replaced Picard for the duration of two episodes, rather than merely challenging him in the manner of, say, Decker usurping Kirk's seat. The writers risked a lot there - apparently, many people approved of Jellico's take on the issues, to an extent where it could be said they preferred the guest star to the regular hero.

One wonders if there was more written into Jellico than the role of the weekly foil. Parts of the script suggest that the audience was supposed to disapprove of the visitor, but the audience doesn't always behave as expected. Also, parts of the script are supposed to have our heroes disapproving of Jellico at the conclusion of the story, but that disapproval isn't evident in how the actors play it out.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[KRAD]

On the first point, the core breach was treated as a complete surprise to everyone. This was before the writers started overusing the phrase "warp core breach" to the point of ridiculousness; the briefing afterward made it quite clear that a core breach was considered to be a virtual impossibility, something that there was no sane reason to expect. At the time Varley said an evacuation would be premature, the situation did not yet appear to be critical, just "serious."

The ship was falling apart around him. Evacuating people would've been a sensible precaution, at the very least. And considering it was the first thing Picard suggested, and Varley rejected it out of hand, and considering what happened a few minutes later, it was irresponsible. Never mind the ship blowing up, the malfunctions all over the Yamato were making the ship dangerous (as the episode proved once the Enterprise got hit with the Iconian virus).

On the second point, as Varley said, his concern was not just finding "an archaeological curiosity," but making sure the Romulans didn't get their hands on the Iconians' gateway technology. He violated the Neutral Zone on an urgent matter of Federation security -- and so did Picard later in the episode, remember.

Iconian technology that he wasn't even sure existed. It was stupid and irresponsible.

So if Varley was a moron, then so is Picard.

In that episode, he was, honestly. Yes, the plot later proved him and Varley both right, but their initial actions were unjustifiable, IMO.

Also, Jellico is a rather strange case of a guest star, as he directly replaced Picard for the duration of two episodes, rather than merely challenging him in the manner of, say, Decker usurping Kirk's seat. The writers risked a lot there - apparently, many people approved of Jellico's take on the issues, to an extent where it could be said they preferred the guest star to the regular hero.

Uh, what "many people" are you referring to? I've seen at least as many people decry Jellico as an ass as praise what he did. (My own take is that some of what he did made sense, but that his insistence on completely overhauling the way things were done on the ship while also ramping up for a war was catastrophically stupid.)

 

[PhoenixIreland]

On the first point, the core breach was treated as a complete surprise to everyone. This was before the writers started overusing the phrase "warp core breach" to the point of ridiculousness; the briefing afterward made it quite clear that a core breach was considered to be a virtual impossibility, something that there was no sane reason to expect. At the time Varley said an evacuation would be premature, the situation did not yet appear to be critical, just "serious."

The ship was falling apart around him. Evacuating people would've been a sensible precaution, at the very least. And considering it was the first thing Picard suggested, and Varley rejected it out of hand, and considering what happened a few minutes later, it was irresponsible. Never mind the ship blowing up, the malfunctions all over the Yamato were making the ship dangerous (as the episode proved once the Enterprise got hit with the Iconian virus).

On the second point, as Varley said, his concern was not just finding "an archaeological curiosity," but making sure the Romulans didn't get their hands on the Iconians' gateway technology. He violated the Neutral Zone on an urgent matter of Federation security -- and so did Picard later in the episode, remember.

Iconian technology that he wasn't even sure existed. It was stupid and irresponsible.

So if Varley was a moron, then so is Picard.

In that episode, he was, honestly. Yes, the plot later proved him and Varley both right, but their initial actions were unjustifiable, IMO.

Also, Jellico is a rather strange case of a guest star, as he directly replaced Picard for the duration of two episodes, rather than merely challenging him in the manner of, say, Decker usurping Kirk's seat. The writers risked a lot there - apparently, many people approved of Jellico's take on the issues, to an extent where it could be said they preferred the guest star to the regular hero.

Uh, what "many people" are you referring to? I've seen at least as many people decry Jellico as an ass as praise what he did. (My own take is that some of what he did made sense, but that his insistence on completely overhauling the way things were done on the ship while also ramping up for a war was catastrophically stupid.)

There was nothing wrong with what Jellico did, it was his poor leadership skills that were the problem, he spoke to many of the officers like a teacher talking to kids in a classroom.

 

[Sci]

For that matter, what about all those times when Picard took the whole ship into battle rather than leaving the civilians behind in the saucer?

As far as I'm concerned, for every time that happened, to say nothing of the very act of bringing children aboard, Picard, the parents/guardians, and the officials who developed that policy, ought to have been charged with child endangerment.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

In a dangerious situation would the saucer not be more vaunerable without the stardrive section? unless you hid it really well far far away from the enemy?

 

[Christopher]

In a dangerious situation would the saucer not be more vaunerable without the stardrive section? unless you hid it really well far far away from the enemy?

Yeah, they never really used the separation idea the way they should have, which would've been to leave the saucer at a starbase or other safe haven before heading into a dangerous situation.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

In a dangerious situation would the saucer not be more vaunerable without the stardrive section? unless you hid it really well far far away from the enemy?

Yeah, they never really used the separation idea the way they should have, which would've been to leave the saucer at a starbase or other safe haven before heading into a dangerous situation.

Not a single galaxy class ship in the dominion war was battle section only either

 

[Trent Roman]

^ But presumably not still with children onboard. The whole point of having children aboard starships was to demonstrate that there were starfaring communities rather than battlebarges, tying into the desire to demonstrate that Starfleet was about peaceful exploration. Eventually, though, the producers realized they needed regular conflict to keep the show interesting, and as we saw, once the E-D bit the dust, the era of families aboard starships came to an end (until the Luna-program, that is... and see how well they've been doing, in Sword of Damocles and now Greater than the Sum). Along those lines, I think the intent was to have the ENT-D spend more time on the edge of space rather than near the Federation, so having their families with them was meant to reinforce this feeling of 'pioneers'; it proved to be a rather pointless risk when the Enterprise was never really more than a few months from 'home', wherever that may be, a place easily reached during leaves of absence.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Deano2099]

If anything I think the years and years of having Picard virtually always make the right call were less realistic than seeing someone screw up on occasion. But while the show might establish certain Captains as almost infallible, it's certainly never established that all Captains are. To the contrary, the commanders of other vessels often played Picard's foolish foils throughout the show, there to be wrong while our hero was right.

But, as Christopher said upstream, that's a common trope of dramatic TV. And it's not just Picard who had guest captains brought in to make him look good (Donald Varley, Benjamin Maxwell). Kirk had Ron Tracey and Matt Decker. Sisko had Cal Hudson and Declan Keogh. Janeway had Ransom. (Archer didn't -- he had Erika Hernandez, who actually accomplished the amazing feat of being more interesting than Archer despite only being in three episodes....)

Aye, forgot their were that many, point being that on that evidence, we've seen far more incompetent starship Captains than we have brilliant ones, the only way it all makes sense is if we assume the likes of Kirk and Picard are truly exceptional, in which case having Harriman not being *as* good as them (though I don't think he was useless) and eventually deferring to someone who was exceptional made sense.
The Captains we've seen on screen clearly have massively varied abilities, instantly assuming that Harriman would be on par with with the greatest just because he was on a ship called Enterprise seems silly.