Series 8 will be darker, more like Classic Who

[Green Lantern]

Old Doctor Who was definitely more violent than the new one, but I don't know if darker is the right word for that.

Good point.

Yeah, I think I'd like it to get more violent too. The violent days of classic who were fun!

Would you say Classic Who is more violent than RTD era Who? I could see that with Moffat but it seemed like lots of people were killed under RTD.

In certain parts, mainly in Colin Bakers era. The acid bath on Vengeance on Varos and the cybermen crushing that mans hands in Attack of the Cybermen come to mind. Of course there's that fight in Tom bakers final story Logopolis, when he got thrown of the tower that was quite violent. Plus more people died in the classic series, many deaths. RTDs era was kinda in the middle, barley ever actually saw blood or anything like in the classic series though. During Moffat's era though, no one's ever even allowed to die once. So a contrast to that would be nice.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Yeah, not once, praise him! Praise him!

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Found this, now just need one for classic and Moffat era.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmLbPvsjAg[/yt]

 

[DWF]

Good point.

Yeah, I think I'd like it to get more violent too. The violent days of classic who were fun!

Would you say Classic Who is more violent than RTD era Who? I could see that with Moffat but it seemed like lots of people were killed under RTD.

In certain parts, mainly in Colin Bakers era. The acid bath on Vengeance on Varos and the cybermen crushing that mans hands in Attack of the Cybermen come to mind. Of course there's that fight in Tom bakers final story Logopolis, when he got thrown of the tower that was quite violent. Plus more people died in the classic series, many deaths. RTDs era was kinda in the middle, barley ever actually saw blood or anything like in the classic series though. During Moffat's era though, no one's ever even allowed to die once. So a contrast to that would be nice.

The fourth Doctor wasn't thrown off of the gantry in Logopolis he fell. Revelation Of The Daleks had a pretty violent ending though with Davros' hand being blown off and multiple stabbings. The Brain Of Morbius was also pretty violent.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Could we count all the people the Master shrunk as violence?

 

[Bacl]

I'm kinda sick of hearing everything is going "darker". Dark new takes on this, new darker series of that. For once can't we just have something that's happy to be what it is?

Couldn't agree more. I don't understand why darker = better. How about focusing on the idea of the doctor as a true moral compass, intellect and romance beating out brute force and cynicism.

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm thinking it's darker only in a very limited sense. Dark relative to the flippant, funny, accessible Doctor characters we've had for the last 7-8 years. More just a nudge in that direction and not a huge sea change.

Mr Awe

 

[Timewalker]

^ Don't get me wrong, I love that season. Some of those I agree are somewhat dark, particularly the one part of Deadly Assassin.

But, much of that era just has a patina of darkness over regular stories. I didn't find Talons to be any more than superficially dark. The torture in Sontaran Experiment could've been dark but it really wasn't dwelled on. Android Invasion wasn't dark at all in my book.

The Sontaran Experiment was novelized by Ian Marter, who played Harry Sullivan. The novelization expands the story a bit, and is a LOT grittier than what we saw on TV. Same with his novelization of The Ark in Space.

And I think Wheatly may need to revisit Leela's departure. Sure Tom doesn't mope for years on end (I'm looking at you RTD) but he's clearly saddened she's gone, he just doesn't show his vulnerability to her, he shows in inside the Tardis after he's closed the door.

I choose to interpret the Doctor's laugh in two ways:

First, Leela had just asked K-9 if the Doctor would be all right. The Doctor was grinning because he already had another K-9 ready to plug in and go.

Second, I'm imagining the Doctor's gleeful thoughts at how Leela would soon whip those soft, cowardly, weak Time Lords into shape!

Classic Who wasn't like that at all. I think of it as the age of innocence where the Doctor was basically just an eccentric, slightly crazy guy travelling around, stumbling into new adventures.

So, "darker, more like Classic Who" sounds quite contradictory to me.

There were a lot of dark, or at least dark-themed stories in the Fifth Doctor era. It was even moreso with the Sixth Doctor. Remember, until the end of Trial of a Timelord, we thought Peri was DEAD - her mind and spirit completely gone, her body stolen and then killed to get rid of the alien that did that to her.

Honestly, the lightest moment I can think of with the Sixth Doctor was when Mel was forcing him to drink carrot juice and work out on an exercise bike.

For the Seventh Doctor, I see nobody's mentioned all the death and violence in Paradise Towers? Not to mention the cannibalism that went on offscreen...

Ther seventh Doctor did trick Davros into using the Hand of Omega and thusly destroyed the entire Skaro solar system, the fourth Doctor did use a Dalek to destroy the incubator room with the new Daleks.

The Fourth Doctor did not destroy the new Daleks. He almost did, but had a talk with his own conscience about whether or not he had the right to commit genocide; he decided he didn't.

After all the new show has never outright killed a companion yet (without coming back one way or the other).

Rory and Amy didn't come back from the Weeping Angels (so to speak), and the Doctor sure acted as though they were dead...

Old Doctor Who was definitely more violent than the new one, but I don't know if darker is the right word for that.

Well, there was a lot of shooting going on (mostly in the U.N.I.T. stories), the Third Doctor knew martial arts, the Fifth Doctor shot a Cyberman point-blank and rubbed Adric's gold-trimmed Badge of Mathematical Excellence into the Cyberman's breathing apparatus to make sure it was dead (why didn't the new series ever acknowledge that the Cybermen are deathly allergic to gold?)...

Could we count all the people the Master shrunk as violence?

Why not, since they ended up dead?

Let's see, there was the traffic cop, Auntie Vanessa (Tegan's aunt), and a bunch of people on Logopolis... not sure who else got shrunk, but the Master was responsible for Kamelion's death (an often-forgotten Companion of the Fifth Doctor, only really seen in The King's Demons and Planet of Fire).

 

[DWF]

In the end he returned to the incubator room and with the help of Dalek set off the explosives and destroyed the room.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Funny enough, Kamelion seemed rather prominently displayed on the wall with all of the Doctor's companions in "Day of the Doctor."

The Doctor did use the golden ticket to temporarily short out his cyber implants in "Nightmare in Silver."

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Yeah, it's kind of hard to interpret what he means by that. My main hope is just that they slow the storytelling pace down a bit to something a bit more natural, to allow for a greater sense of mystery and suspense like we saw in the classic show.

The classic series was definitely moodier, especially in the black and white episodes.

If by darker they mean that bad things and their consequences will actually stick...


Should I be worried about Clara?
After all the new show has never outright killed a companion yet (without coming back one way or the other).

Much as I love Clara, I've been thinking of some pretty dark ways to do that. (Essentially, one character pulls a "Wrath of Khan" style sacrifice play to save Clara's life, only to watch helplessly as she's exterminated on the other side of the glass.)

Isn't "darker and more like Classic Who" the kind of buzzwords we were hearing before season 5 aired?

You weren't supposed to remember that.

Why? Did those posts fall into the crack?

Gareth Roberts summed it up best. Classic Who could go places in terms of violence and religion that nuWho wouldn’t be able to do, but the modern show has dealt with plenty of things the classic show couldn’t have touched.

I'd also say that the new series has spent a lot more time developing the main characters, while the longer format of the classic series left many more chances to develop the guest cast.

 

[Lance]

I'd also say that the new series has spent a lot more time developing the main characters, while the longer format of the classic series left many more chances to develop the guest cast.

I've summed it up my feelings on the differences between the two shows thusly:

The classic series focused on narrative, rather than character.

The new series focuses on character, rather than narrative.

Both are valid. But they *are* very different approaches to the material.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

Much as I love Clara, I've been thinking of some pretty dark ways to do that. (Essentially, one character pulls a "Wrath of Khan" style sacrifice play to save Clara's life, only to watch helplessly as she's exterminated on the other side of the glass.)

I certainly hope not. Clara is by far my favorite companion since I started watching the show in 2005 (and Jenna Coleman is just as lovely as her TV alter ego)....considering how many times the character has "died", I hope this version of her comes through her adventure unscathed, and walks away from the TARDIS to continue her teaching post happy and fulfilled.

I hope they do a "Martha" with her and not a Rose, Donna, Amy, etc.

Although the creative personality in me sees merit in your idea, that would leave the Doctor mopey again, just like he was when he met her. She brought him out of that. It wouldn't be fair to have her leave and have the opposite effect.

 

[Redfern]

When it comes to "violence" in DW, specifically the "classic" era, the first thing that comes to my mind is the compost machine Harrison Chase used in the "Seeds of Doom". Basically, it was a big a$$ wood chipper into which Chase "fed" one poor sap (bad pun!) and later tried with Sarah Jane. The Doctor extracted her and then Chase jumped into the hopper with the hopes of killing the Doctor. His effeorts failed and Chase himself got ground into a slurry to fertilize his macabre garden.

Of course, the viewers never saw any "gore", just quick shots of the intertwining blades, then to the victim and then back to the blades. Still, the implications were disturbingly gruesome!

I bet Green Lantern would probably get, ahem, "excited" over that one.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Much as I love Clara, I've been thinking of some pretty dark ways to do that. (Essentially, one character pulls a "Wrath of Khan" style sacrifice play to save Clara's life, only to watch helplessly as she's exterminated on the other side of the glass.)

I certainly hope not. Clara is by far my favorite companion since I started watching the show in 2005 (and Jenna Coleman is just as lovely as her TV alter ego)....considering how many times the character has "died", I hope this version of her comes through her adventure unscathed, and walks away from the TARDIS to continue her teaching post happy and fulfilled.

I hope they do a "Martha" with her and not a Rose, Donna, Amy, etc.

Although the creative personality in me sees merit in your idea, that would leave the Doctor mopey again, just like he was when he met her. She brought him out of that. It wouldn't be fair to have her leave and have the opposite effect.

Well, it wouldn't necessarily need to be Clara to meet such an ironic end. She just comes to mind because she's the incumbent character.

And while I agree that we don't want to see another round of mopey Doctor, I think you could minimize that if he already had a 2nd companion at the time that the first one died. When Adric died, it was sad but the Doctor couldn't get too morose about it because he still had to take care of Nyssa & Tegan.

The classic series often had transition periods between where both the old & new companions would be together for a while before the old one left. For some reason, the new show hasn't done that.

I'd also say that the new series has spent a lot more time developing the main characters, while the longer format of the classic series left many more chances to develop the guest cast.

I've summed it up my feelings on the differences between the two shows thusly:

The classic series focused on narrative, rather than character.

The new series focuses on character, rather than narrative.

Both are valid. But they *are* very different approaches to the material.

Too bad the new series isn't always so good at handling both. Although, I think part of what made Seasons 5 & 6 so good was that they developed both by having the personalities of the characters drive so much of the narrative. And Amy & Rory both had such strong personalities that the characters still very much came through even in the stand-alone episodes that weren't really about them.

 

[Timewalker]

I'd also say that the new series has spent a lot more time developing the main characters, while the longer format of the classic series left many more chances to develop the guest cast.

I've summed it up my feelings on the differences between the two shows thusly:

The classic series focused on narrative, rather than character.

The new series focuses on character, rather than narrative.

Both are valid. But they *are* very different approaches to the material.

I disagree that the Classic Who stories didn't focus on character. If that were so, how is it that Sarah Jane Smith is the most beloved of ALL the Companions (according to most lists I've seen)?

Even going all the way back to Susan, we saw her grow from a teenager to a woman in love (she stayed behind to marry David Campbell). Leela appreciated being taught about science, rather than going through life relying on superstition.

As for guest characters... there have been some pretty good ones over the years. One of my favorites is Professor Amelia Rumford (Stones of Blood). Damn, what a grand, feisty lady!


I don't like Clara. I find her pretty boring, in all honesty. And I do not appreciate needing a flowchart to understand the basic sequence of events that happened over an entire actor's run as the Doctor. It's like the producer and writers wrote out plot points on index cards, threw them up in the air, and stuck the episodes together in the mixed-up order they were retrieved from the floor.

When it comes to "violence" in DW, specifically the "classic" era, the first thing that comes to my mind is the compost machine Harrison Chase used in the "Seeds of Doom". Basically, it was a big a$$ wood chipper into which Chase "fed" one poor sap (bad pun!) and later tried with Sarah Jane. The Doctor extracted her and then Chase jumped into the hopper with the hopes of killing the Doctor. His effeorts failed and Chase himself got ground into a slurry to fertilize his macabre garden.

Of course, the viewers never saw any "gore", just quick shots of the intertwining blades, then to the victim and then back to the blades. Still, the implications were disturbingly gruesome!

This is exactly why I don't like this story, and have never had the slightest wish to rewatch it.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

We didn't say that the classic series didn't have any character development. Just that, compared to the new series, character development on the classic series was generally folded into very plot-driven episodes.

On the other hand, the new series often lingers on the characters and their backstories first & foremost. On the classic series, we almost never saw the companions' family members. And on the rare instances that we did, it was usually only in their debut story so that something horrible could happen to one of them. Victoria's father was killed in "Evil of the Daleks." Adric's brother died in "Full Circle." Nyssa's father, Tremas, was taken as a new body for the Master in "The Keeper of Traken." The Master then proceeded to kill Tegan's Auntie Vanessa with his tissue compression gun in "Logopolis." (I can't recall whether Peri's family all survived their encounter with the Master in "Planet of Fire.")

It's even rarer that a classic series companion would meet any family members later on in their run. IMO, the only 2 instances that really qualify are Tegan's various family members from "Arc of Infinity" & "The Awakening." Although, you also had Ace meeting her mother as a newborn infant in "The Curse of Fenric." And we finally met Sarah Jane's famous scientist aunt in the K-9 & Company spinoff.

Compare that to the new series where we've met at least some family members of pretty much every new series companion at some point or another. In the first 2 seasons, Rose's mother appeared 13 times. We even met Adam's mother once at the end of "The Long Game"!

 

[Timewalker]

We didn't say that the classic series didn't have any character development. Just that, compared to the new series, character development on the classic series was generally folded into very plot-driven episodes.

On the other hand, the new series often lingers on the characters and their backstories first & foremost. On the classic series, we almost never saw the companions' family members. And on the rare instances that we did, it was usually only in their debut story so that something horrible could happen to one of them. Victoria's father was killed in "Evil of the Daleks." Adric's brother died in "Full Circle." Nyssa's father, Tremas, was taken as a new body for the Master in "The Keeper of Traken." The Master then proceeded to kill Tegan's Auntie Vanessa with his tissue compression gun in "Logopolis." (I can't recall whether Peri's family all survived their encounter with the Master in "Planet of Fire.")

It's even rarer that a classic series companion would meet any family members later on in their run. IMO, the only 2 instances that really qualify are Tegan's various family members from "Arc of Infinity" & "The Awakening." Although, you also had Ace meeting her mother as a newborn infant in "The Curse of Fenric." And we finally met Sarah Jane's famous scientist aunt in the K-9 & Company spinoff.

Compare that to the new series where we've met at least some family members of pretty much every new series companion at some point or another. In the first 2 seasons, Rose's mother appeared 13 times. We even met Adam's mother once at the end of "The Long Game"!

Showing a family member in the debut episode helps set up the character's motivation for joining the Doctor, and in Adric's case, it was especially poignant to see him on the freighter, clutching Varsh's belt as he faced his own death. In that respect, it could be said that Adric didn't die entirely alone; his brother was there in spirit.

I'd forgotten about Howard (Peri's stepfather? I forget). He was a nasty creep, so no loss...

 

[Sindatur]

Howard was left ambiguous. in a Six/Peri Audio Cybermen story (The Reaping), Peri and The Doctor return home, and we meet Peri's mom, who held Howard responsible for Peri's disappearance, so, according to the Audio, he definitely was alive, and no reason in the TV episode to believe he died. The Howard we see in Planet of Fire later episodes is Kamelion

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I came across an interesting rumor today...

Spoiler: Just a rumor..."

Charles Dance will be the Master. And he's instrumental in the Doctor's new regenerative cycle.

Oh, that would be awesome.