Rarely are things as black and white as interpretations of S31 are. This explanation makes the most sense, as there would likely be legitimate fronts through which S31 would operate.
Section 31
- Thread starter StarMan
- Start date
By nasty things" you mean secretly sabotaging or killing their enemies?
IRL equivalence.
Assassinating Kim Jung Un, sabotaging the Russian stockmarket and firebombing the Taliban (food) crops.
Section 31 doesn't go after the good guys?
Oh.
Into Whiteness.
Was Marcus Section 31? He was building an insurrection to take over the Federation, which is not Section 31's mandate, since in a very real way, they already run and control the Federation quietly.
I think that Marcus was the threat, and Section 31 gave him the opportunity to show the universe who he really is: An asshole, who is going to get every one killed.
The stuff starfleet/federation wouldn't (normally) do. Or you wouldn't think they'd do.
Oh, its wrong.
What I object to is the idea that Section 31 is a bunch of amoral people doing amoral things and giggling about it, when its more likely like Sisko in In The Pale Moonlight... Good people doing bad things and coping with it.
What I object to is the idea that Section 31 is a bunch of amoral people doing amoral things and giggling about it, when its more likely like Sisko in In The Pale Moonlight... Good people doing bad things and coping with it.
From In the Pale Moonlight:
SISKO: That Vreenak obtained the rod on Soukara and that the Dominion killed him to prevent him from returning to Romulus with it.
GARAK: Precisely. And the more the Dominion protests their innocence, the more the Romulans will believe they're guilty because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want, a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
[now in "Sisko's quarters"]
SISKO: At oh eight hundred hours, station time, the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They have already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So, this is a huge victory for the good guys. This may even be the turning point of the entire war. There's even a 'Welcome to the Fight' party tonight in the wardroom. So I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning thing of all, I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing. A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant, so I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log.
From Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges:
BASHIR: You don't see anything wrong with what happened, do you.
ROSS: I don't like it. But I've spent the last year and a half of my life ordering young men and young women to die. I like that even less.
(Bashir wakes to see -)
SLOAN: Good evening.
BASHIR: Are you expecting applause? Have you come to take a bow?
SLOAN: I just wanted to say thank you.
BASHIR: For what? Allowing you to manipulate me so completely?
SLOAN: For being a decent human being. That's why we selected you in the first place, Doctor. We needed somebody who wanted to play the game, but who would only go so far. When the time came, you stood your ground. You did the right thing. You reached out to an enemy, you told her the truth, you tried to stop a murder. The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men of conscience, men of principle, men who can sleep at night. You're also the reason Section Thirty one exists. Someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong.
BASHIR: Should I feel sorry for you? Should I be weeping over the burden you're forced to carry in order to protect the rest of us?
SLOAN: It is an honour to know you, Doctor. Goodnight.
(Sloan leaves.)
BASHIR: Bashir to Security.
ODO [OC]: Odo here.
BASHIR: Never mind. My mistake.
To my mind, casting Section 31 as part of the system (calling them 'the good guys' is still a stretch, they're probably Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil per standard 'spy' alignments. James Bond, IMF, Jason Bourne, A-Team, Team Weston from Burn Notice), means that the biggest, most important difference between them and the Tal-Shiar, Obsidian Order and even many modern spy agencies is that they seem to be primarily outward-focused, they keep a lookout for potential agents, maintain a watch/back-channels to top-level elements in friendly (and potentially non-friendly) governments, but for better than 99% of the Federation population (and virtually 100% of non-dependant civilians) S31 has no interest in them, and will never directly affect their lives.
SISKO: That Vreenak obtained the rod on Soukara and that the Dominion killed him to prevent him from returning to Romulus with it.
GARAK: Precisely. And the more the Dominion protests their innocence, the more the Romulans will believe they're guilty because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want, a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
[now in "Sisko's quarters"]
SISKO: At oh eight hundred hours, station time, the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They have already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So, this is a huge victory for the good guys. This may even be the turning point of the entire war. There's even a 'Welcome to the Fight' party tonight in the wardroom. So I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning thing of all, I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing. A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant, so I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log.
From Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges:
BASHIR: You don't see anything wrong with what happened, do you.
ROSS: I don't like it. But I've spent the last year and a half of my life ordering young men and young women to die. I like that even less.
(Bashir wakes to see -)
SLOAN: Good evening.
BASHIR: Are you expecting applause? Have you come to take a bow?
SLOAN: I just wanted to say thank you.
BASHIR: For what? Allowing you to manipulate me so completely?
SLOAN: For being a decent human being. That's why we selected you in the first place, Doctor. We needed somebody who wanted to play the game, but who would only go so far. When the time came, you stood your ground. You did the right thing. You reached out to an enemy, you told her the truth, you tried to stop a murder. The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men of conscience, men of principle, men who can sleep at night. You're also the reason Section Thirty one exists. Someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong.
BASHIR: Should I feel sorry for you? Should I be weeping over the burden you're forced to carry in order to protect the rest of us?
SLOAN: It is an honour to know you, Doctor. Goodnight.
(Sloan leaves.)
BASHIR: Bashir to Security.
ODO [OC]: Odo here.
BASHIR: Never mind. My mistake.
To my mind, casting Section 31 as part of the system (calling them 'the good guys' is still a stretch, they're probably Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil per standard 'spy' alignments. James Bond, IMF, Jason Bourne, A-Team, Team Weston from Burn Notice), means that the biggest, most important difference between them and the Tal-Shiar, Obsidian Order and even many modern spy agencies is that they seem to be primarily outward-focused, they keep a lookout for potential agents, maintain a watch/back-channels to top-level elements in friendly (and potentially non-friendly) governments, but for better than 99% of the Federation population (and virtually 100% of non-dependant civilians) S31 has no interest in them, and will never directly affect their lives.
All it really says is they have their own holodeck, which might not even be on board a ship.
As a terrorist group there are many legitimate reasons to send a Starfleet ship out to capture Maquis that do not require Section 31 to be involved. Regardless, Voyager was sent to locate Chakotay's ship because their chief of security was aboard undercover. So by your logic, if anyone aboard Voyager is with Section 31, it would be Tuvok.
I think it's unlikely that Tuvok was a member of Sloan's Section 31, but him being a member of the legit main branch has a certain logic to it.
G
Gonzo
Guest
I always really enjoyed the Section 31 episodes, I found them to be relatable, entertaining and above all realistic, Sloan explained it perfectly, good men like Bashir wont/cant do it which means someone else has to, that will always be the case.
With so many other races it stands to reason that many wont have the same moral principles as the Federation, I loved how the Dominion War was ended by offering the cure, it wouldn't surprise me if that was Section 31's plan all along as Sloan knew Bashir well but he couldn't just give it to him as he also wanted the Founders (a huge threat) to die out, it gave the Federation the leverage it needed, when it needed it the most, the way the Romulans were brought into the war was also excellently written and so very Garak.
I find it rather foolish when some throw labels around like good and evil far too often, it is after all a matter of perspective.
Not even Doctor Doom wakes up believing that he is a bad guy.
I like this. Kind of like how on "Stargate" the official story of what they were doing was, studying long-range telescopes or something like that instead of going to other planets and saving Earth. You know their had to be some offical front for what was going on to deal with some poltican or General who wants to get in contact with Hammond or whoever but doesn't have classified access.
Jason
That was always problematic for me. How do they explain the high mortality rate, or even the frequent injuries that occur as being related to space telescopes. To say nothing of why officers like O'Neill who spent their career with Special Forces are involved. Even Jacob Carter found that cover story to be a poor explanation before he learned about the Stargate.
If V'Las was running things, (Vulcans are long lived) then all four can be claimed
My guess is "training exercises" was the go-to excuse but your right. Not sure if that ties in well with space telescopes.
Jason
I bet a politician wrote it
Holy forking shirtballs!
V'Las surgically altered himself to look human, and then tried to take over the Federation a hundred years later on DS9!
V'Las surgically altered himself to look human, and then tried to take over the Federation a hundred years later on DS9!
In the Star Trek universe anything is possible
Who cares what he thinks? Doom may not believe he's a bad guy, but he still is.
That sounds like something that heartless monster, Reed Richards, would say!
