I now want this.
Section 31
- Thread starter StarMan
- Start date
Section 31 retconned as a known branch of Starfleet Intelligence/Federation Security that operates in the grey zone morally makes more sense than an 'answers to no one, but ourselves' DS9/ENT mafia spy club. Will be interesting to see how DISC reconciles the two versions, unless they are going to admit to being part of the Kelvinverse without Nero. The STID Section 31 having a secret shipyard in the Sol System, that no one bumps into, please?
Hey we did see Starfleet Intelligence at least once. In the Ds9 ep where they did their version of "Donnie Brasco." O'Brien is reporting to a intelligence officer who lies to O'Brien about getting not-Al Pacino out of the mob and is okay in letting him die. It does so open to the door up to the idea that the line between them and Section 31 isn't much different.
Jason
Jason
ST Intel was formally introduced in TNG "The Pegasus", where the writer Moore wanted to make a clear distinction between these spooks and the more over-the-counter Security.
It's a bit funny that Security, which has often been seen doing basic police work, is not the branch of choice for the DS9 "Honor Among Thieves" operation...
It's just the classic problem of "secret" being ill defined. Shinzon built a warship on a "secret" yard. Doesn't mean it would have been secret from the Romulan Senate, say. Everything on Remus would be secret to some degree or another. But not invisible (except when cloaked against the prying eyes of UFP and Klingon spies), and not under close scrutiny by those whose business it would have been to scrutinize. They just happened to think Shinzon was doing a fine job there.
Nothing suggests the dock in ST:ID would have been invisible to all of Starfleet. It's just that random starship CEOs don't need to know. Heck, the dreadnought project was literally over the counter - Marcus had a miniature proudly displayed over his! But he had people for the project, and neither Kirk nor Scotty were those people. The old Enterprise and the Defiant were quite possibly built equally "secretly" for their part.
Timo Saloniemi
It's a bit funny that Security, which has often been seen doing basic police work, is not the branch of choice for the DS9 "Honor Among Thieves" operation...
It's just the classic problem of "secret" being ill defined. Shinzon built a warship on a "secret" yard. Doesn't mean it would have been secret from the Romulan Senate, say. Everything on Remus would be secret to some degree or another. But not invisible (except when cloaked against the prying eyes of UFP and Klingon spies), and not under close scrutiny by those whose business it would have been to scrutinize. They just happened to think Shinzon was doing a fine job there.
Nothing suggests the dock in ST:ID would have been invisible to all of Starfleet. It's just that random starship CEOs don't need to know. Heck, the dreadnought project was literally over the counter - Marcus had a miniature proudly displayed over his! But he had people for the project, and neither Kirk nor Scotty were those people. The old Enterprise and the Defiant were quite possibly built equally "secretly" for their part.
Timo Saloniemi
(Mirror) Lorca was a new weird unexpected threat.
Game-theory on the Klingons had been a human problem for a century and a Vulcan problem for 9 centuries.
Unless the Klingons did something weirdly unexpected or uncharacteristic, they are not a problem for Section 31, that requires boots on the ground.
Section 31 on Discovery, was a short leash on Lorca, whether they made their remit clear to Lorca or not, when they asked for space on his ship...
Wait a ####ing second.
No one with a Black Badge is listed as Crew.
They are invisible.
There could be another 20 black badge spooks, walking around confusing the Operations Officer's cost analysis on where ten palates of toilet paper goes every month.
The crew count is wrong.
Game-theory on the Klingons had been a human problem for a century and a Vulcan problem for 9 centuries.
Unless the Klingons did something weirdly unexpected or uncharacteristic, they are not a problem for Section 31, that requires boots on the ground.
Section 31 on Discovery, was a short leash on Lorca, whether they made their remit clear to Lorca or not, when they asked for space on his ship...
Wait a ####ing second.
No one with a Black Badge is listed as Crew.
They are invisible.
There could be another 20 black badge spooks, walking around confusing the Operations Officer's cost analysis on where ten palates of toilet paper goes every month.
The crew count is wrong.
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That could be another 20 black badge spooks, walking around confusing the Operations Officer's cost analysis on where ten palates of toilet paper goes every month.
The crew count is wrong.
Aliens used the bog roll.
They had their own black uniforms while on a starfleet ship in their very first appearance on DS9, so either section 31 operates their own ships or a bunch of regular starfleet officers saw people in black uniforms mucking around their ship which would require an explanation. The secret shadow organization was problematic right from the start.
While I agree with others that I don't like the implications that Section 31 has its grubby hands in everything, the barn door opened on that back with the choices DS9 made. I can live with it.
What I can't live with is how the most recent trailer seems to indicate that Georgiou is openly flashing her badge, and not only Pike, but Burnham and Ash are just casually discussing Section 31. It may be because of editing as was suggested, but it gives the implication that it's widespread knowledge in Starfleet that Section 31 exists. Yes, it's true that a lot can happen in the next century plus, but the idea of knowledge of Section 31 being suppressed so ruthlessly that no one on DS9 knew about it seems odd. I mean, a century from now - presuming civilization doesn't fall, there is no profound cultural shift, and we don't become totalitarian - would knowledge of the CIA's existence entirely vanish? It seems hard to imagine. Hell, people in Trek's future probably know about the CIA - if for no other reason than they like to watch old movies. Similarly, it's hard to imagine popular fictionalized accounts of the antics of Section 31 don't exist by the 24th century as a more modern analogue to the "Bond film."
What I can't live with is how the most recent trailer seems to indicate that Georgiou is openly flashing her badge, and not only Pike, but Burnham and Ash are just casually discussing Section 31. It may be because of editing as was suggested, but it gives the implication that it's widespread knowledge in Starfleet that Section 31 exists. Yes, it's true that a lot can happen in the next century plus, but the idea of knowledge of Section 31 being suppressed so ruthlessly that no one on DS9 knew about it seems odd. I mean, a century from now - presuming civilization doesn't fall, there is no profound cultural shift, and we don't become totalitarian - would knowledge of the CIA's existence entirely vanish? It seems hard to imagine. Hell, people in Trek's future probably know about the CIA - if for no other reason than they like to watch old movies. Similarly, it's hard to imagine popular fictionalized accounts of the antics of Section 31 don't exist by the 24th century as a more modern analogue to the "Bond film."
Hmm. It would suffice for the 24th century to have its CIA, so that the 23rd century OSS or its foreign precursor the 22nd century SOE would no longer be remembered.
Knowledge of their existence would simply not be particularly relevant to anybody but historians. And it would only be those historians who'd know how the previous TLA holders factually differed from the current one; whether they were shadier or cleaner or more or less active in certain specific fields.
Popular "knowledge" of a semi-fictional shady organization would probably just serve to eliminate the semi- part there: Bond's Secret Service makes the SOE less well known today, not more.
Timo Saloniemi
Knowledge of their existence would simply not be particularly relevant to anybody but historians. And it would only be those historians who'd know how the previous TLA holders factually differed from the current one; whether they were shadier or cleaner or more or less active in certain specific fields.
Popular "knowledge" of a semi-fictional shady organization would probably just serve to eliminate the semi- part there: Bond's Secret Service makes the SOE less well known today, not more.
Timo Saloniemi
Vulcans wrote/oversaw/approved the United Earth Charter, the Starfleet Charter, the Coalition Charter, and the Federation Charter, in the same way that Imperial Britain brought the modern world to the Pacific and Caribbean, making treaties and helpfully drafting constitutions for developing nations.
1. The Vulcans intentionally invented section 31, because they believe in the concept themselves.
(or...)
2. The Vulcans intentionally invented Section 31, because they believe that this is how humans think, and the sort of twofaced self destructive molly coddle they need to progress towards being useful to the galactic community.
(Or...)
3. The Vulcans wrote Article 14, section 31 as random junk, with no clear thought behind what it really meant, and the humans ran with it.
(or...)
4. The humans wrote Article 14, section 31, sneakily, in such an obtuse manner that their Vulcan overlords editing and approving the document had no bloody idea what they were going along with, and this whole Deep State Starchamber thing went right under the Vulcan's radar.
1. The Vulcans intentionally invented section 31, because they believe in the concept themselves.
(or...)
2. The Vulcans intentionally invented Section 31, because they believe that this is how humans think, and the sort of twofaced self destructive molly coddle they need to progress towards being useful to the galactic community.
(Or...)
3. The Vulcans wrote Article 14, section 31 as random junk, with no clear thought behind what it really meant, and the humans ran with it.
(or...)
4. The humans wrote Article 14, section 31, sneakily, in such an obtuse manner that their Vulcan overlords editing and approving the document had no bloody idea what they were going along with, and this whole Deep State Starchamber thing went right under the Vulcan's radar.
Urgh, this was my main takeaway from the trailer as well. No one should know who Section 31 is, in the JJverse it was handwaved away as it being due to the Nero threat so they expanded. No one should know who Section 31 is, not an entire ship - I could buy some captains knowing of it or hearing rumours, but they're now operating openly? I hope this is part of something that will make sense.
I don't see the problem here. Our two previous datapoints are a century apart in either direction. There are no conflicting datapoints from the 23rd century. Them doing anything "now" ought to be fine and well, regardless of what they did "then" or will do "then".
Going semi-public is a good way to accumulate bad karma and be forced to go underground again, I guess...
Timo Saloniemi
Going semi-public is a good way to accumulate bad karma and be forced to go underground again, I guess...
Timo Saloniemi
What is "Something we said when Section 31 was first introduced in DS9 but were ultimately disappointed to find out it didn't"?
Star Trek Fans: Adding logic since 1966 to what some high on LSD/coke writer came up with in 10 minutes.
One thing we can assume is that Section 31 at least has some access to legit Starfleet. In their first episode at the end we see Bashir on the holodeck of a "Voyager" style ship. That says to me they might even have their own ships and I am guessing other Starfleet tech as well. We also see him aboard another ship from that class in season 7. It just occurred to me. Captain Janeway might have been Section 31 the entire time. It seems to me Section 31 might feel the need to capture The Maquis.
Jason
Jason
Supposing Section 31 has a slightly bigger footprint than it did in the era of Enterprise or during TNG and Deep Space 9, it might still have no official records and information just passed on in hushed tones in officer's scuttlebutt. The criminals from the shuttle had no idea what the black badges were (except maybe Burnham who wasn't as talkative)
80 years later it could be a much quieter, smaller, secretive organization with most institutional memory of it well below the noise level. Pinkerton Detectives once acted as a kind of defacto private secret police/intelligence for for the United States. It still exists but has a very different role now. Organizations change.
80 years later it could be a much quieter, smaller, secretive organization with most institutional memory of it well below the noise level. Pinkerton Detectives once acted as a kind of defacto private secret police/intelligence for for the United States. It still exists but has a very different role now. Organizations change.
Sort of the Hydra on "Agents of Shields.?" They hide out in the open. Maybe those at the very top like Sloan don't do it because if they are found out it's greater exposure but in reality any Starfleet officer could maybe be working as Section 31 and nobody knows it because most of the time they are just doing their job.
Jason
That’s what I’ve been saying all along.
No one knows Section 31 is doing the nasty things behind everyone’s back.
Apologies if someone has already suggested this, but what if both explanations for Section 31 are true to a certain point of view. There's the "public face" of S31 (possibly a retcon'd version of Jeri Taylor's Starfleet Rangers (a ultra-classified recon and covertops group active during the lead-up to the Cardassian War), who acts as the "muscle" and "eyes and ears" of deskbound units like Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Tactical (ala the IMF from MI or RW units like CIA-SAD, and "We don't submit reports or ask for approval for specific operations, if that's what you mean." is usually more of a 'giove them an objective and a deniable freehand thing than anything"), and then there's Sloan's rogue cell that really is the "autonomous, unaccountable zelots" that Sloan claims to be (I'd even go as far to say that the "fake story" that Koval and Sloan concocted for the Continuing Commitee might well have been mostly true, in that Vice Admiral Fujisaki's death in suspicious circumstances might well have been the impetus to form his rogue cell).
