Section 31

[JirinPanthosa]

I'm of the opinion that DS9's critique of Gene's vision made Gene's vision better.

We don't have a lot of evidence of the mechanisms behind Section 31. We have Sloane's word alone that at the highest levels they only have the Federation's best interests at heart. For all we know there are neutral economic interests behind the war machine.

Having loyalty to a country isn't negated by not having loyalty to its leaders. It's like saying "I have loyalty to the US, but I don't have loyalty to Trump."

 

[Tenacity]

The second part of that sentence negates the first.

This statement make zero sense.

You can act to protect a given group of people, without having the slightest loyalty to a designated leader/leaders.

 

[Paradise City]

Sloan is loyal to the Federation in his own mind. He also believes Section 31 is crucial to the Federation's survival, so Section 31's survival is paramount beyond all other considerations. So, he gives himself carte blanche to whatever he likes, to whatever lengths he likes. He's tantamount to a terrorist really.

 

[Tenacity]

He also believes Section 31 is crucial to the Federation's survival

In the case of the Dominion War he was right.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In the case of the Dominion War he was right.

That's still debatable. It ended up the victory over the Dominion was a military victory. The only benefit the changeling virus actually had was to give Odo an opportunity to end the violence, mitigating losses by curing it. If Bashir hadn't successfully cured the virus, the Gem'Hadar still fight to the last man.

 

[Spot261]

I think it's fair to say the evidence points to S31 being loyal to the federation and well funded and resourced, often with tech unavailable to SF. It's merely that they are prepared to act outside of the normal rules of engagement. Given the high ranking nature of the operatives we've seen (and those implied by the novelverse) it's very likely the organisation is not so much rogue as HIGHLY classified.

I'd also question parallels between S31 and the Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order. Both of those organisations seem to focus inwards as instruments of social control, secret police type organisations, whereas S31 is more focussed on strategies to deal with external threats and developing new weapons outside of the normal SF strictures.

 

[Cheapjack1]

Who is the head of Section31?

 

[The Wormhole]

Who is the head of Section31?

A mysterious agent known only as "Control."

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It's clear Section 31 doesn't want to see the Federation destroyed but that's not necessarily the same as being loyal to it.

If Section 31 had a choice to make between allowing Federation citizens to be killed and giving up some of their power to control Federation policy, what do you think they'd do?

Leader of Section 31 is probably some guy who looks like Martin Sheen.

 

[UnknownSample]

Why Martin Sheen? Anyway, Sloane turned out to be self-sacrificing. He gave his life to his cause, and didn't seem to acquire wealth on the way. He stayed loyal in his own way even after knowing for certain he was dying, thinking Bashir was a threat to the Federation.

 

[elamigodemiamiga]

They're a good organisation.

They realise that aliens, with different evolution, have different values, morals, and systems. Following rules is always a luxury.

 

[elamigodemiamiga]

Sloan is loyal to the Federation in his own mind. He also believes Section 31 is crucial to the Federation's survival, so Section 31's survival is paramount beyond all other considerations. So, he gives himself carte blanche to whatever he likes, to whatever lengths he likes. He's tantamount to a terrorist really.

Who knows what other conflicts they helped either prevent or win? Maybe the Cardassian War? Tzenkethi War?

 

[elamigodemiamiga]

Introduced in ST: DS9, Section 31 is meant to represent that part of the Federation that does its dirty deeds ... covertly and independent of oversight. And, just to make sure STAR TREK fans view TOS differently, ENT even included it as part of Malcolm's narrative. So ...

What do you think of this addition to the franchise lexicon? Does it make the presented Utopia work for you? Does it change your views, at all, about things like The Prime Directive, in the various series? Do you feel that it betrays Gene's Vision™?

There is nothing wrong with it.
Even in TOS, we saw Kirk break rules all the time.

 

[elamigodemiamiga]

I like the idea of an imperfect Federation, the Utopian aspect of humans progressing works for me (compared to 1316, 2016 London is Utopia) but human reaching perfection in behaviour? Nah.

why does it matter? it's only fiction.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Hi @elamigodemiamiga ...please learn to use the + Quote option (at the bottom right of every post) to insert multiple quotes into a single responding post, rather than posting several time in a row. Thanks.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Why Martin Sheen? Anyway, Sloane turned out to be self-sacrificing. He gave his life to his cause, and didn't seem to acquire wealth on the way. He stayed loyal in his own way even after knowing for certain he was dying, thinking Bashir was a threat to the Federation.

Mass Effect joke. The Illusive Man's appearance is based on Martin Sheen.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They're a good organisation.

They realise that aliens, with different evolution, have different values, morals, and systems. Following rules is always a luxury.

So does the Federation, that's why they deal with the different value systems diplomatically instead of by undermining and sabotaging them for your own political control.

There's a difference between just breaking rules and doing what Section 31 does. When Kirk or Picard would break rules they'd do it to protect their crew or protect innocent lives, not to politically stack the deck for their side.

 

[Tenacity]

Who is the head of Section31?

 

[fireproof78]

They are more like the Operative from "Serenity" who work outside of normal channels to ensure their way of life is preserved. I think they often appear as Starfleet Intelligence officers, but are more than willing to go to whatever lengths it takes to protect the Federation-period.

The more engaging part is the idea that they are think they are doing the right thing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Leader of Section 31 is probably some guy who looks like Martin Sheen.

In fact, Sheen himself was up for the role of Sloan on DS9...