Too complex, for my tastes anyway. Kinda fails Ocham's Razor, but I'm not sure what would stand up to it with regard to S31.
Section 31--Let's try and settle this!
- Thread starter Rush Limborg
- Start date
Too complex, for my tastes anyway. Kinda fails Ocham's Razor, but I'm not sure what would stand up to it with regard to S31.
Withers
Captain
Alright, I think there's more to the tie between Starfleet Admirals and Section 31 than I first thought. I have four examples I'd like to point out.
The first is Admiral Toddman. In a conversation with Kira he all but says Starfleet condones the Cardassian-Romulan joint preemptive strike (pretty much genocide on the Founders). He forbids Sisko from going into the Gamma Quadrant and he is responsible for Michael Eddington.
The second is Admiral Pressman. He decided it was worth violating a treaty with the Romulans to develop cloaking technology, essentially deciding that in spite of the law, he knew what was best.
The third is Admiral Leyton, who was planning to actually remove the President in a military coup after which he would institute what is essentially martial law. He completely disregarded the law and went so far as to have one Federation ship fire on another, arrested a man he knew to be innocent, and perpetrated a hoax on the entire planet to further his ends.
The fourth is Admiral Daugherty who decided, very much on his own, that subverting Federation "rules" (i.e. the law) was alright so long as it was for the good of the Federation.
These Admirals exemplify Section 31's behavior. The only difference is, with the exception of Toddman, they're all relieved of duty for their actions or killed. Their efforts were equally as in vain as the actions 31 took. This kind of negates the idea of plausible deniability in my head but it does strengthen the argument that 31 actually does have masters, even if that isn't officially known.
The first is Admiral Toddman. In a conversation with Kira he all but says Starfleet condones the Cardassian-Romulan joint preemptive strike (pretty much genocide on the Founders). He forbids Sisko from going into the Gamma Quadrant and he is responsible for Michael Eddington.
The second is Admiral Pressman. He decided it was worth violating a treaty with the Romulans to develop cloaking technology, essentially deciding that in spite of the law, he knew what was best.
The third is Admiral Leyton, who was planning to actually remove the President in a military coup after which he would institute what is essentially martial law. He completely disregarded the law and went so far as to have one Federation ship fire on another, arrested a man he knew to be innocent, and perpetrated a hoax on the entire planet to further his ends.
The fourth is Admiral Daugherty who decided, very much on his own, that subverting Federation "rules" (i.e. the law) was alright so long as it was for the good of the Federation.
These Admirals exemplify Section 31's behavior. The only difference is, with the exception of Toddman, they're all relieved of duty for their actions or killed. Their efforts were equally as in vain as the actions 31 took. This kind of negates the idea of plausible deniability in my head but it does strengthen the argument that 31 actually does have masters, even if that isn't officially known.
-Withers-
I think your examples more effectively demonstrate that Starfleet admirals enjoy a great deal of discretion, power and autonomy than it does linking specific admirals to Section 31. Addressing your four:
Admiral Toddman: Good chance there is a connection here. Section 31 would definitely approve of the Romulan/Cardassian operation. It's a win-win situation as far as they are concerned. If the operation is successful, the Founder threat is eliminated. If it doesn't, Section 31 learns more about the Founders' capabilities while two Federation enemies suffer the consequences.
Admiral Pressman: Almost certain (but probably indirect) connection. Tactically, the treaty the Federation made with the Romulans was insane. There is no question that Section 31 would favor cloak research. They probably had agents on the inside working to foster that but I would wager Pressman wasn't in the loop. His boss(es) in Starfleet Intelligence were. Pressman was a fall guy.
Admiral Leyton: Doubtful: His plan and operation was sloppy with poorly-concealed tracks. Leyton was desperate to break the complacency regarding the Founder threat and he definitely went way over the line but I doubt he had any connection with Section 31. He sure is a good example of how much power an admiral wields though.
Admiral Daugherty: Possibly. The cloaked ship and the cloaked infiltrators seem like use of illegal technology. Both those cloaks seemed pretty crude though and may not fall under the Treaty of Algeron. There was also an underlying regret in every illegal action Daugherty ordered. He struck me as an example of the "Power Corrupts" maxim who got in too far to back out by the time he realized his error.
Withers
Captain
Well, okay, I can go with that assessment. It begs the question though; if Admirals can and do do whatever they want, what is the point of Section 31? It would seemingly be the goal of any 31 agent to just be an Admiral. The difference, of course, is that Admirals can be punished.
-Withers-
You answered your own question. Admirals can be (and are) punished.
I believe they used language in the Starfleet charter to justify (amongst themselves) their covert creation of Section 31.
I haven't read the thread cause its 9 pages long, but I'd like to point out that as the 24th century S31 is not officially condoned by the Federation They are essentially criminals by the standards of the Klingon Empire, Cardassian Union, Romulan Empire and yes, even the United Federation of Planets.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with their methods, they haven't any official authority to exert. They are vigilantes, of a most extreme variety. That the Federation doesn't see fit to support them should say enough about them.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with their methods, they haven't any official authority to exert. They are vigilantes, of a most extreme variety. That the Federation doesn't see fit to support them should say enough about them.
in defence of s31 might be said that our heroes, the 5 captains and their crews quite often saved the universe on their own, without authorisation of the federation admiralty or the central council, and more often than not violated a regulation or two along the way. our heroes however were not a bunch of self-proclaimed civilization savers, but had a different job description, and circumstances forced them to take action. i'm afraid that in the long run, an organisation like s31 does more harm than good to the federation they pretend to protect.
what would have happened if the founders had learned earlier they had been infected by s31? the female changeling must have by linking with odo in the last episode, too good she had no vengeance in mind for the moment. the pinkish lake also learned about it when odo spread out, and i'm not certain we've seen the true end of the dominion war. spirit sisko might guard the wormhole, but technology advances, and 70,000 ly might not be a substantial distance a couple of years later. i'm also sure the founders bear a grudge against the prophets, and will eventually figure out how to eliminate them. chronoton radiation from their end of the hole?
while our heroes were people with integrity, s31, in particular sloan were not.
what would have happened if the founders had learned earlier they had been infected by s31? the female changeling must have by linking with odo in the last episode, too good she had no vengeance in mind for the moment. the pinkish lake also learned about it when odo spread out, and i'm not certain we've seen the true end of the dominion war. spirit sisko might guard the wormhole, but technology advances, and 70,000 ly might not be a substantial distance a couple of years later. i'm also sure the founders bear a grudge against the prophets, and will eventually figure out how to eliminate them. chronoton radiation from their end of the hole?
while our heroes were people with integrity, s31, in particular sloan were not.
Doubtful. If the average person did, there would be no point for Starfleet Command to deny that 31 existed. If it were exposed, the logical thing to do would be for Command to say, "yes, they exist--but they're criminals", etc.
ITA. Though to be fair, I wouldn't be suprised if Toddman was just a super-hawk, who happened to share the same sympathies with 31.
After all...the responsability for the attack was not in any manner with the UFP--thus, the Founder's war would not be with them, but with the Cardassians and the Romulans....
This. Also, it's a practical certainty that 31 therefore has phasing cloaks of its own, after the discovery that the tech worked. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that 31 had a hand in the research and development.
Exactly. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that 31--which prides itself on paranoia, and therefore extreme carefulness--would be as sloppy as that.
Yeah...somehow, I sincerely doubt that Dougherty was working with 31. Remember, he clearly stated that the mission was ordered by the Federation Council. He was then branded a "rogue" admiral--and therefore, he's a fall guy for the corrupt members of the Council after Riker's "top level review".
Withers
Captain
That's suggesting that 31 is especially good at what they do and the on-screen evidence is to the contrary. I mean Sloan is duped by a scheme hatched by Miles O'brien who isn't exactly the most "complicated" fellow on the show. All Sloan seems to be really good at is breaking into Julian's apartment. So Leyton being dismissed as a candidate based on how "sloppy" his work was isn't valid.
And it was clearly established that 31 had operatives in the UFP President's cabinet- a Federation Council mandate doesn't necessary equate to being free and clear of 31 involvement.
-Withers-
^ So you don't think a secret agency operating inside a totally open society like the Federation and remaining under the radar for 200 years is good at what they do?
Withers
Captain
I don't think they were so good at it that a mistake like Leyton couldn't be made, no. Their "master of subterfuge" was done in by Miles. Their plot to eliminate the Founders was uncovered. Archer knew about them. Sisko knew about them. Ross knew about them. An enlisted man and his best Doctor friend knew about them. They were not so covert as to never make a mistake and so, yeah, in spite of 200 years of relative secrecy, I think they're poor enough at what they do to have made a mistake like Leyton.
-Withers-
Thats the same kind of complaint about Torchwood that people like to nitpick. In both the Trek and Torchwood universe people know about both organizations but they really don't "know" said organizations. I also liken it to the CIA and NSA because sure most people know the names but only have a general idea about what each of them are up to but the details are very secret and likely will never be fully understoon by anyone outside said organization.
It was kind of a generalization not directed at you personally
Anyway, I think it takes something away from Leyton's desperate actions and the actors portrayal (love Robert Foxworth) of the characters said desperate actions. I prefer to believe that Leyton felt he was acting in the best interest of The Federation.
Withers
Captain
Oh, I agree with that. I think 31 as a concept was the writers getting sick of Admirals always turning out to be bad guys, doing illegal or improper things in the name of protecting and furthering what they thought was best for the Federation. Ultimately I was going to write that in a more "flowery" way and have it be the culmination of the post that preceded the two I've made today... but then I completely forgot about this thread.
-Withers-
Believe it or not I've never actually read anything about what the reason behind the creation of S31 was but if I had to guess, it was probably a stab realisim and probably to take the pressure off all those crazy admirals, lol
But every single one of those crews operated within the framework of the Federation Starfleet and were accountable to the Admiralty and the Federation government. None of them just operated on their lonesome.
I loved the idea of section31 hence my username. But I do wonder if Gene Roddenberry would have approved of it. I think the series 24 picked up on the flavour of section31 stories and explored the idea of how far do you let your forces go to acheive peace. Often the stories would show the President deliberately turning a blind eye. But that is terrorists which is quite different from a huge Invading army. I feel that section31 would not have really existed if Gene were around.As much as it is a cool storytelling and thought provoking mechanism it just doesn't fit in with the other Trek series.
However I'm glad it was written!!!
Starfleet was chartered with protecting the Federation. The fact Section31 is unknown to all but a few makes it illegal. The Federation was set up for the welfare of its people. Something that grand would have to be clearly open for public debate and viewing. The public had a right to know that there would be an organisation operating outside of the law. But that is a dilema because the Federation laws prohibit such illegal measures deployed by Section31.
Every other alien counterpart agency- Obsidian Order, Tal Shiar have been made known to the public; even if their operations are classified.
Unless Section31 was accountable for its actions it wasn't justified in using them. No one under any circumstances is above the law. I don't think that creating the disease to infect the founders was morally wrong. The Founders would have not stopped until the Jem Hadar were destroyed or the Alpha quadrant was conquered. And the victory would have been horrendous for the Federation citizens. I don't think that killing the founders to save billions of lives was so wrong. I don't even think it would have been wrong if Starfleet's weapons division officially introduced the disease rather than Section31. Using Odo was deplorable and that was Section31's dirty deed. There probably wouldn't have been another way to introduce the disease to the Founders.
So it was either use a Federation ally to infect the Founders with a lethal disease from which he'd probably also die- or let the Federation be conquered. You lose either way. If you infect Odo you have lost sight of what you are fighting for- to keep the Federation and its ideals and principles alive. Infecting Odo betrays those principles
Therefore I think Section31 was not justified in its actions.
However I'm glad it was written!!!
Starfleet was chartered with protecting the Federation. The fact Section31 is unknown to all but a few makes it illegal. The Federation was set up for the welfare of its people. Something that grand would have to be clearly open for public debate and viewing. The public had a right to know that there would be an organisation operating outside of the law. But that is a dilema because the Federation laws prohibit such illegal measures deployed by Section31.
Every other alien counterpart agency- Obsidian Order, Tal Shiar have been made known to the public; even if their operations are classified.
Unless Section31 was accountable for its actions it wasn't justified in using them. No one under any circumstances is above the law. I don't think that creating the disease to infect the founders was morally wrong. The Founders would have not stopped until the Jem Hadar were destroyed or the Alpha quadrant was conquered. And the victory would have been horrendous for the Federation citizens. I don't think that killing the founders to save billions of lives was so wrong. I don't even think it would have been wrong if Starfleet's weapons division officially introduced the disease rather than Section31. Using Odo was deplorable and that was Section31's dirty deed. There probably wouldn't have been another way to introduce the disease to the Founders.
So it was either use a Federation ally to infect the Founders with a lethal disease from which he'd probably also die- or let the Federation be conquered. You lose either way. If you infect Odo you have lost sight of what you are fighting for- to keep the Federation and its ideals and principles alive. Infecting Odo betrays those principles
Therefore I think Section31 was not justified in its actions.
Withers
Captain
From what I've read he absolutely would not have approved of Section 31. But, and I say this in the most unequivocal and unapologetic language possible, who gives a **** what Gene Roddenberry would have approved of? DS9 was amazing because they started to realize the idea of a universe where all conflict came from "outside" was not only unrealistic but wholly boring.
As an organization, in-universe, I don't approve of Section 31. Were I there I would be very much against it.
As a plot device on a fictional television show, from the perspective of an audience member, I couldn't be a bigger advocate of Section 31. It was proof positive Trek could be edgy and dark without turning into... you know, something grim.
-Withers-
Took the words from my mouth.Sometimes I get the impression that some people think of Star Trek as religion, Roddenberry as a deity, and his every opinion and even presumed opinions as a dogma.
