Section 31’s plan (S7 spoilers)

[Myasishchev]

I’d love to be a spider under the table at the Section 31 meeting when they decided to greenlight their genocidal plan.

The Vorta and Jem’Hadar are conducting a war on behalf of the Founders, with the goal of conquering the Alpha Quadrant for the Founders to rule. The Founders have minimal direct involvement in the conduct of the war; their role consists mostly of setting the goals and broad strategies for the war.

Our plan: introduce a virus into the Great Link so that the Founders get sick and die.

There are several possibilities for what might happen next.

Best case scenario: the Vorta and Jem’Hadar, their gods being dead, decide they have no more purpose in life. They retire to Florida and/or commit suicide, the Alpha Quadrant powers are stabilized, and the Gamma Quadrant becomes an anarchic free-for-all rife with opportunity and peril.

Worst case scenario: the Vorta and Jem’Hadar, their gods being dead, decide (or are so instructed by the Founders prior to their death) that they have no more purpose in life except revenge. The war of conquest becomes a war of annihilation, with the goal of exterminating all solids indigenous to the AQ.

How did S31 decide that Scenario #1 was so likely, and Scenario #2 so unlikely, that this plan makes sense?

They had developed a cure. In the event the war went really south--which it never really did--they'd have bartered the cure for peace (and, likely, a negotiated victory). I suspect that they kept it a secret in order to keep the war going so long as it was successful--because a Fed victory in the war meant a complete end of the nuisance of Cardassia.

And it worked out great.

I agree that there would have been little point beyond an irrational genocidal intent if there were no cure.

 

[Myasishchev]

One might wonder what the Changeling was doing there in the first place, assuming the attack was genuine. Why would it need to be there? To ensure that key victims would arrive before the bomb went off? There was some arriving or departing going on in that tape, to be sure. But it seems a bit crude for a Founder to act as the bomb's detonator. Surely a techno-gadget could have achieved the same.

The Founder couldn't have been much of an observer, either, since it left before observing the carnage. Perhaps it would have spied on the meeting, to decide whether to bomb or not? Doesn't sound likely, though. If the meeting was worth bombing, the Founders would have needed to know that in advance, in order to bring the bomb to the room. And if so, why bother listening to the talkers?

An intriguing possibility is that the Founder literally sat on the bomb, in order to hide it from sensors and other scrutiny. Founders are masters at fooling sensors, after all. But the tape sort of suggests that the explosive center was elsewhere.

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe the Founder was the bomb. We're not talking T1000s here. They can produce complicated machinery.

Rush: I like the notion of the plague being a tactical weapon as well, preventing the most dangerous tool of the Changelings from being used--namely their ability to infiltrate Starfleet and the Federation at will.

The last time we saw a major infiltration was in By Inferno's Light with the Changeling Bashir, right?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Yeppers. And after that, Odo (temporarily) betrayed the Alpha Quadrant when he linked with the Female Changeling.

If we were to conjecture that that was the moment Odo transferred the virus to the Founders...one might conclude, then, that Odo's contracting the illness was, in effect, unintended justice--his penance for his (temporary) betrayel.

 

[DevilEyes]

^Yeppers. And after that, Odo (temporarily) betrayed the Alpha Quadrant when he linked with the Female Changeling.

If we were to conjecture that that was the moment Odo transferred the virus to the Founders...one might conclude, then, that Odo's contracting the illness was, in effect, unintended justice--his penance for his (temporary) betrayel.

Odo already had the disease, so that couldn't have been his penance. The Female Founder is the one who got infected from Odo, not the other way round.

So does that mean that, if Odo hadn't linked with the FF during the Dominion Occupation, Odo would never have gotten the means to end the war, as he did in S7 (because the Founders wouldn't have gotten infected in the first place)?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^I didn't mean it quite that way. I was just half-jokingly invoking "poetic justice"--Odo temporarily joins the Founders--thus, he shares their fate.

 

[DevilEyes]

^I didn't mean it quite that way. I was just half-jokingly invoking "poetic justice"--Odo temporarily joins the Founders--thus, he shares their fate.

But the situation is actually a lot more ironic - Odo's joining the Founders hurt them, not him (one might say that Section 31's belief that Odo would eventually link with one of the Founders was what got him infected - but he would still have remained infected even if he hadn't done it)... and through a series of events (thanks to Bashir's efforts) eventually gives him a means to convince the Founders to surrender, therefore ending the war.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Again--poetic justice!

And Luther Sloan, and The Bureau in general, certainly has a thing for the dramatic and theatrical....



Okay...so it looks like three possible moments of infection:

In "Homefront", when Odo snags the Leyton-changeling.

In "Broken Link", where Odo gets judged by The Link. (Hmm...nice bit of poetic justice there, too!)

In the season-five arc, which we just discussed.

Am I missing any other instances?

 

[Jono]

So does that mean that, if Odo hadn't linked with the FF during the Dominion Occupation, Odo would never have gotten the means to end the war, as he did in S7 (because the Founders wouldn't have gotten infected in the first place)?

Given that the rest of the Link was infected mostly likely before Odo and the female Founder had their love-in on DS9 Odo would still be able to bargain with the cure.

 

[Timo]

Odo already had the disease, so that couldn't have been his penance. The Female Founder is the one who got infected from Odo, not the other way round.

Actually, I must disagree.

The disease is something that only works on Founders, right? It doesn't kill Bajorans or humans. Well, then obviously Odo did not have the disease. After all, he had been turned into a human in "Broken Link", and had not been in contact with a Founder after returning back to Changeling form in "The Begotten".

So the irony is a bit different from what was postulated above. Odo gets infected by the Feds in "Homefront" in order to hurt the Founders; he then delivers the agent of death to the Founders at their own behest, when the Founders force Odo to Link with them in "Broken Link". The Founders cure him as a "punishment", while getting fatally infected themselves. And then the Founders fight a bloody and cruel war that actually is the exactly right and only possible way to save their lives. Sure, they would have fought that war even if the Feds hadn't used the bioweapon - but the bioweapon made that war an absolute necessity for the Founders, without anybody even realizing it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Soooooo....

One might say, then, that even though it was Odo who transmitted the disease to the Founders in the first place ("Broken Link"), he didn't actually become anything more than a carrier untill he linked with the FC again in Season 5.

When that happened, he got the full-fledged, actual disease--symptoms, and all.

So I'd say, if that were the case--it was a sort of penance for him. Had he listened to Kira, and had he not betrayed (temporarily) the Allies, he wouldn't have gotten the symptoms after all....

And again, this is an example of It's Their Own Fault, for infiltrating our ranks like that. You mess with The Feds...you get a visit...from Section 31.

 

[Sci]

And again, this is an example of It's Their Own Fault, for infiltrating our ranks like that. You mess with The Feds...you get a visit...from Section 31.

Right, it's their fault that Section 31 decided to commit genocide. That's why the entire species -- including Changeling infants such as those that Odo and the Hundred once were -- must die.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Not all the race was infected, Sci--just those the infected ones linked with.

I'd think the Hundred is safe--with the exception of Odo and Laas, of course (assuming Laas got it--he probably did, but I'm just sayin'...)

So, therefore, it's not the entire race. Therefore...it's tecnically not genocide.

But that's splitting hairs. Even if it was genocide...there is precedent for Starfleet commiting genocide--such as "The Man Trap", wherin Kirk and Co. brush aside all the pleas on behalf of the last of the salt creatures--and kill it.

And then there's General Order 24.

Yes, it was later outlawed, but...Kirk DID call for it. And apparently there was a reason it existed in the first place.

 

[Sci]

^Not all the race was infected, Sci--just those the infected ones linked with.

I'd think the Hundred is safe--with the exception of Odo and Laas, of course (assuming Laas got it--he probably did, but I'm just sayin'...)

So, therefore, it's not the entire race. Therefore...it's tecnically not genocide.

But that's splitting hairs. Even if it was genocide...there is precedent for Starfleet commiting genocide--such as "The Man Trap", wherin Kirk and Co. brush aside all the pleas on behalf of the last of the salt creatures--and kill it.

And then there's General Order 24.

Yes, it was later outlawed, but...Kirk DID call for it. And apparently there was a reason it existed in the first place.

None of which changes the fact that there are Changeling civilians, such as Changeling infants, that lived within the Great Link, were not involved in the Dominion's decision-making process, yet would themselves be killed.

Nor does it change the fact that it is an attempt to exterminate an entire species, even if it is not completely successful. Driving a species into endangered status is not morally superior to driving it into extinction.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Not all the race was infected, Sci--just those the infected ones linked with.

I'd think the Hundred is safe--with the exception of Odo and Laas, of course (assuming Laas got it--he probably did, but I'm just sayin'...)

So, therefore, it's not the entire race. Therefore...it's tecnically not genocide.

But that's splitting hairs. Even if it was genocide...there is precedent for Starfleet commiting genocide--such as "The Man Trap", wherin Kirk and Co. brush aside all the pleas on behalf of the last of the salt creatures--and kill it.

And then there's General Order 24.

Yes, it was later outlawed, but...Kirk DID call for it. And apparently there was a reason it existed in the first place.

None of which changes the fact that there are Changeling civilians, such as Changeling infants, that lived within the Great Link, were not involved in the Dominion's decision-making process, yet would themselves be killed.

I know this is not strictly canon, but...as Worlds of DS9, vol 3 establishes, changelings cannot procreate.

Nor does it change the fact that it is an attempt to exterminate an entire species, even if it is not completely successful. Driving a species into endangered status is not morally superior to driving it into extinction.

As I have already stated, Kirk was perfectly fine with killing off the last Salt Creature in "Man Trap"--and was perfectly willing to initiate General Order 24, effectively comminting genocide on Eminiar 7.

By your logic--that anything related to genocide is inherently evil and unjustifiable--Kirk is every bit as guilty and unjustified in those instances as you claim Section 31 too be.

 

[Sci]

None of which changes the fact that there are Changeling civilians, such as Changeling infants, that lived within the Great Link, were not involved in the Dominion's decision-making process, yet would themselves be killed.

I know this is not strictly canon, but...as Worlds of DS9, vol 3 establishes, changelings cannot procreate.

Even if we go by The Dominion: Olympus Descending, that novel still establishes that there are Changelings whose minds have not developed and who do not participate in the Dominion's decision-making process -- making them innocent civilians.

Nor does it change the fact that it is an attempt to exterminate an entire species, even if it is not completely successful. Driving a species into endangered status is not morally superior to driving it into extinction.

As I have already stated, Kirk was perfectly fine with killing off the last Salt Creature in "Man Trap"--and was perfectly willing to initiate General Order 24, effectively comminting genocide on Eminiar 7.

Because I don't consider them relevant to the question at hand. The M-113 creature was killed because it was literally in the process of killing Kirk; that was an act of self-defense against a single individual engaging in a hostile act, not an intentional act of genocide. (Further, it's questionable whether or not that creature truly was the last of its kind, given the presence of M-113 creatures in the background of Rura Penthe in deleted scenes from this year's film.)

As for Eminiar VII, it's been a very long time since I watched "A Taste of Armageddon," but I seem to recall that this was more of a bluff being made by Kirk as part of his scheme to overpower the Eminiarian government and broker a peace treaty.

Having said that, I completely agree that Starfleet should have absolutely no provisions for destroying a planet that is home to an entire civilization like Eminiar.

By your logic--that anything related to genocide is inherently evil and unjustifiable

I argued, implicitly, that genocide is inherently evil and unjustifiable. And, more to the point, I argued that it is not the fault of the victims of genocide if someone attempts to exterminate their entire species, especially if that victim is a civilian. I made no claims about "anything related."

 

[Rush Limborg]

[I argued, implicitly, that genocide is inherently evil and unjustifiable. And, more to the point, I argued that it is not the fault of the victims of genocide if someone attempts to exterminate their entire species, especially if that victim is a civilian. I made no claims about "anything related."

And yet you said:

Driving a species into endangered status is not morally superior to driving it into extinction.

I would think that that is related....

The M-113 creature was killed because it was literally in the process of killing Kirk; that was an act of self-defense against a single individual engaging in a hostile act, not an intentional act of genocide.

Which doesn't change the facts that 1), Kirk was intending to kill the creature practically from the very moment he heard about its existence, despite the fact that, as far as he was concerned, it was the last of it's kind; and 2), the changelings infiltrating the Allied Powers had to be dealt with, in self-defense.

Consider: the UFP had no clue how many spies were there. They did know that they can shape-shift, and thus sneak in and out with little trouble.

I am curious, Sci. How would you have tried to deal with the infiltrators?

 

[DevilEyes]

The M-113 creature was killed because it was literally in the process of killing Kirk; that was an act of self-defense against a single individual engaging in a hostile act, not an intentional act of genocide.

Which doesn't change the facts that 1), Kirk was intending to kill the creature practically from the very moment he heard about its existence, despite the fact that, as far as he was concerned, it was the last of it's kind; and 2), the changelings infiltrating the Allied Powers had to be dealt with, in self-defense.

Kirk was trying to kill the creature because it was killing his crew and was intent on killing more people, not because he hated the M-113 creatures or wanted them extinct. That is NOT GENOCIDE.

By your logic, the M-113 creature should have been allowed to do whatever it wanted and kill everyone it wanted to kill, just because it might have been the last of its species.

 

[Timo]

Really, if you are ready and willing to kill in order to defend X, it often follows that you have to be mentally prepared to commit genocide to defend X, too. Threats that can't be neutralized except by killing are unlikely to be stopped by only killing a little. Conversely, if killing a little will stop a threat, it's probably possible to find a way to stop the threat by merely threatening to kill...

The idea of there being "Founder civilians" is a somewhat dubious one. The UFP had no evidence of any sort of Founder dissent, save for the case of Odo (and even his dissent was cast in doubt at times). Indeed, the nature of the Link would suggest that if dissident Founders existed, they'd live somewhere outside the Link, so killing the entire Link should be quite okay. Or basically as okay as nuking the Pentagon, even if a few relatively innocent summer helpers at Accounting were lost along with the war leaders.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

^Not all the race was infected, Sci--just those the infected ones linked with.

I'd think the Hundred is safe--with the exception of Odo and Laas, of course (assuming Laas got it--he probably did, but I'm just sayin'...)

So, therefore, it's not the entire race. Therefore...it's tecnically not genocide.

But that's splitting hairs. Even if it was genocide...there is precedent for Starfleet commiting genocide--such as "The Man Trap", wherin Kirk and Co. brush aside all the pleas on behalf of the last of the salt creatures--and kill it.

And then there's General Order 24.

Yes, it was later outlawed, but...Kirk DID call for it. And apparently there was a reason it existed in the first place.

Probably to kill Klingon planets in retaliation for Klingon attacks on the Federation.

I always had a problem with the execution of the order resting with someone as far down the line as a ship's captain, though. Countervalue targeting is morally troublesome enough that the civilian government should have the say whether it's necessary or not; but maybe that's why General Order 24 was issued, to provide captains the flexibility to undertake a return strike if the civilian government no longer existed. And they probably neglected to actually put "Klingon" in the order, so as not to offend, giving Kirk some legal but unreasonable authority to wipe out random populations. I wonder if Scott had been with Captain Garth instead he'd have said "Fuck the Antosians." He seemed more or less okay with following Kirk's orders, iirc.

Like Sci, I like to think it was a bluff, but I recall that it's not at all apparent from the face of the episode. I do suppose that Scott would've limited the killing of Eminarian "hostages" to the number necessary to secure the return of the Federation hostages held on the planet. They probably would've folded after the Enterprise knocked down a few city blocks with their phasers.

When did they repeal 24? I don't remember that.

 

[Sci]

[I argued, implicitly, that genocide is inherently evil and unjustifiable. And, more to the point, I argued that it is not the fault of the victims of genocide if someone attempts to exterminate their entire species, especially if that victim is a civilian. I made no claims about "anything related."

And yet you said:

Driving a species into endangered status is not morally superior to driving it into extinction.

Because I would argue that intentionally driving a species to near-extinction is legally the same thing as literal genocide. That's a quibble over the definition of genocide, not a moral evaluation of "anything related" to genocide.

The M-113 creature was killed because it was literally in the process of killing Kirk; that was an act of self-defense against a single individual engaging in a hostile act, not an intentional act of genocide.

Which doesn't change the facts that 1), Kirk was intending to kill the creature practically from the very moment he heard about its existence, despite the fact that, as far as he was concerned, it was the last of it's kind;

It's been a long time since I've seen "The Man Trap," but if that's the case, he was wrong to do so; his first goal should have been to capture and imprison the creature so as to secure the safety of his fellow Federates.

and 2), the changelings infiltrating the Allied Powers had to be dealt with, in self-defense.

Certainly. That does not mean that this justified genocide, however.

Consider: the UFP had no clue how many spies were there. They did know that they can shape-shift, and thus sneak in and out with little trouble.

I am curious, Sci. How would you have tried to deal with the infiltrators?

I would imagine that the simplest solution would be to have Garak provide information on the Obsidian Order's shapeshifting-inhibitor field devices. From there, the devices could be placed in key Federation installations, forcing impersonated Changelings to remain in their disguises even when experiencing a need to revert to their liquid form. Upon detection, the Changeling can then be placed into a secure holding facility and the device deactivated so as to allow the Changeling to recover ("The Die is Cast" having made it clear that use of the device only constitutes torture when the Changeling has been prevented from reverting for a protracted period of time).