So he managed to avoid his reflection for how long exactly? That to me is way more than a throw-away line. It was very specific, and quite clearly a nod to all the other post-regeneration moment where he saw his reflection and commented on his new face.
Seasons of War
- Thread starter Allyn Gibson
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So he managed to avoid his reflection for how long exactly? That to me is way more than a throw-away line. It was very specific, and quite clearly a nod to all the other post-regeneration moment where he saw his reflection and commented on his new face.
Isn't it possible that the Doctor, after destroying (or now thinking he had done so) of his people, he would avoid or just not be very chirpy about his newfound self? He still ended the Time War, you know...
It more than makes sense that he'd have a period of self-discovery during that time, before deciding to be the Doctor again. That alone would be a tale to tell - how do you go from "Doctor no more" to "By the way, I'm the Doctor, whats your name?"
It more than makes sense that he'd have a period of self-discovery during that time, before deciding to be the Doctor again. That alone would be a tale to tell - how do you go from "Doctor no more" to "By the way, I'm the Doctor, whats your name?"
It is possible. Yes. But I don't think it's feasible that he spent a long period of time without seeing his reflection, considering the amount of reflective surfaces around. And the whole point of that scene with the mirror is to suggest he's only recently regenerated.
No, thats the point - no one has ever known what the point of that moment was. Some fans think its a regeneration nod, while others just think its a jab for the newly-returned-on-TV Doctor for new viewers and old alike.
I think it's pretty clear. It was a deliberate throw back to similar scenes with newly regenerated Doctor. RTD would not have done that had he intended to mean something else. He's a fan, and he knew exactly what it would imply.
I think the Doctor has a tough enough time remembering how old he is even WITH Gallifrey as a reference, and probably doesn't think it's THAT important to him most of the time anyway. He could have lived for a century before seeing Rose; he could have lived for a century AFTER seeing Rose and before inviting her aboard for the second time at the end of "Rose". He could have lived for decades and then just had a haircut. Or some combination of the three.
Doesn't help that his timeline has been so muddled by crossing it all these times over the centuries, that his personal history could itself be in flux. For all we know, one morning the twelfth Doctor sneezed into a wormhole, which results in the sixth Doctor catching a cold and accidentally set the controls to be in the neighborhood of Lakertya before he should have, suddenly subtracting a century from his age. Then the next morning, he wakes up remembering three more centuries of life when he was the second Doctor because a future incarnation of the Meddling Monk arranged for his second incarnation's trial to result in the Time Lords using him as an agent for a while. I think his personal history is in such flux because of all the traveling he's done, that it's become impossible to peg specific things down anymore. Moreover, most of his incarnations don't really mind.
Mark
Doesn't help that his timeline has been so muddled by crossing it all these times over the centuries, that his personal history could itself be in flux. For all we know, one morning the twelfth Doctor sneezed into a wormhole, which results in the sixth Doctor catching a cold and accidentally set the controls to be in the neighborhood of Lakertya before he should have, suddenly subtracting a century from his age. Then the next morning, he wakes up remembering three more centuries of life when he was the second Doctor because a future incarnation of the Meddling Monk arranged for his second incarnation's trial to result in the Time Lords using him as an agent for a while. I think his personal history is in such flux because of all the traveling he's done, that it's become impossible to peg specific things down anymore. Moreover, most of his incarnations don't really mind.
Mark
That line was always problematic, even if looked at from just the first season alone. If taken literally and the Doctor had recently regenerated prior to meeting Rose, then when does he do all those things we see him doing in the pictures, like being present for JFK's assassination, telling that family not to board the Titanic, and so on?
Or at any point during series one... Say when Rose was sleeping? Would have to be after 'World War Three' though, as there's no gaps between stories until that point.
That was pretty cool.
The idea that the Doctor does all of those things that Rose saw the documentation on (like the Titanic) in that brief moment at the end of "Rose" doesn't sit right with me. It's too, and I hate using this phrase, timey-wimey. If the ninth Doctor were a Moffat creation, the Doctor doing stuff after Rose is aware of the Doctor doing stuff wouldn't bother me as much; Moffat's Doctor is an ontological mess that should collapse under the weight of his own recursion. But I can't think of any time that RTD played the timey-wimey card in that way; RTD's Doctors traveled through time, but they did so in a linear fashion. Yes, it's possible for the Doctor to do something like pop off for a few years and come back to where he started, but there's nothing in RTD's text or his portrayal of the Doctor to support that kind of reading.
The problem I always had with that theory is that that is a very specific point for the Doctor to accurately navigate back to, and only a few weeks later we discover he has trouble just returning twelve hours after that point.
But then, the Ninth Doctor e-book in the 50th anniversary collection does run with the theory anyway.
But then, the Ninth Doctor e-book in the 50th anniversary collection does run with the theory anyway.
I always read the scene this way:
The Doctor takes the parking brake off the TARDIS and drifts forward about five seconds into the future. Rose feels like she's left him, and suddenly he's back, and, like a teenage girl who likes a bad boy and his turbo-charged car, she runs off with the guy who was toying with her emotions. It makes total sense in a James Dean kind of way.
The Doctor takes the parking brake off the TARDIS and drifts forward about five seconds into the future. Rose feels like she's left him, and suddenly he's back, and, like a teenage girl who likes a bad boy and his turbo-charged car, she runs off with the guy who was toying with her emotions. It makes total sense in a James Dean kind of way.
Well yes, and I'm sure that's what RTD meant. But WE nerds have all those inconsistencies to explain, hence all the crazy-weird-yet-just-possibly-possible-in-a-timey-wimey-way theories we will be coming up with until we die.
Also, the TARDIS can, and has, brought the Doctor exactly where and when he needs to be, whether he knew it or not. So Nine could have drifted off, had years of adventures, then felt nostalgic and realized that Rose is the one for him. Poof! He's back. Good enough for me, but hardly the only possible explanation out there.
Mark
Also, the TARDIS can, and has, brought the Doctor exactly where and when he needs to be, whether he knew it or not. So Nine could have drifted off, had years of adventures, then felt nostalgic and realized that Rose is the one for him. Poof! He's back. Good enough for me, but hardly the only possible explanation out there.
Mark
Well yes, and I'm sure that's what RTD meant. But WE nerds have all those inconsistencies to explain, hence all the crazy-weird-yet-just-possibly-possible-in-a-timey-wimey-way theories we will be coming up with until we die.
I just disagree with the premise that there's an inconsistency here. What I see instead is a fannish retcon explanation in search of a problem.
To some extent, that theory raises another question -- why Rose? The throughline of the ninth Doctor's thought process doesn't make a lot of sense -- he has an adventure with Rose, she rejects him when he offers to travel, he runs off and has a bunch of other adventures, he comes back for Rose. Why does he come back for her specifically?
I can posit an explanation for sake of argument -- if "Rose" is immediately after "The Day of the Doctor" (from the War/Ninth Doctors' perspective), then Rose is, like Amy was to the eleventh, the first face the ninth's body saw. Perhaps, like the eleventh did to Amy, the ninth imprinted on Rose and was drawn back to her, even unconsciously. Even though I don't agree with the basic premise (that "Rose" and "Day" are linked in that way), I can see the basic logic. I don't think it really works for the ninth Doctor, because he's never been shown to be the ontological nightmare that the eleventh Doctor is.
Heh. Well, given the whole Bad Wolf thing, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was Rose herself who altered reality such that the Doctor and/or TARDIS would be drawn back to her!
On that, RTD is known for doing timey-wimey stuff with Rose, Donna and the Doctor himself, using it as an explanation for the clues being randomly dropped around the universe to mean something (Bad Wolf, the DoctorDonna, the Doctor being drawn back to Wilf). Both Doctor and TARDIS are intrinsically drawn to trouble for them to solve, but it's not like there's an easy explanation for this basic trope of televised drama series.
Mark
On that, RTD is known for doing timey-wimey stuff with Rose, Donna and the Doctor himself, using it as an explanation for the clues being randomly dropped around the universe to mean something (Bad Wolf, the DoctorDonna, the Doctor being drawn back to Wilf). Both Doctor and TARDIS are intrinsically drawn to trouble for them to solve, but it's not like there's an easy explanation for this basic trope of televised drama series.
Mark
Sci-fi with time travel. You got a box that can go anywhere in time and space, and after the girl rejects going with you on your space ship, you head out to do stuff. You think of her from time to time for some reason. Then remember you forgot to tell her about the time machine part of your box. Pop back in a few seconds after you left and tell her. For some reason she believes you and joins you. That week or month spent saving people on Earth paid off. Now who's for seeing the Earth blowup?
Lets remember that, while the Ninth isn't quite as timey-whimey, into-paradox as Eleven was, the Sixth also wasn't. And he first met Mel out of order - in fact, he met as a witness to an adventure they shared in his future! Worse even, The Wrong Doctors have TWO Sixth Doctors (one from immediately after Ultimate Foe, the other wearing the blue coat) with TWO Mels (the one present in Ultimate Foe,, the other an alternate/parallel reality Mel) all meeting one another, again BEFORE the Sixth Doctor meets Mel for the first time from her perspective.
Yeah, the Doctor's ontological nature has been around for some time...
Yeah, the Doctor's ontological nature has been around for some time...
I'd agree with that if not for what was depicted in "Night of the Doctor"; he very clearly rejects his title. "Doctor no more."
He was the version of the Doctor that fought in the war, and didn't count himself among his numbered incarnations. The War Doctor fits perfectly, at least for me. One of the plot points of Day of the Doctor was realizing that The War Doctor was always The Doctor, even if for awhile both himself and different incarnations didn't consider himself to be. So, he wasn't a warrior. He was The Doctor, fighting in a war. The War Doctor. That's my thinking on it, at least
"Ah, my ninth body already, doesn't time fly. Well, this time I think I'll leave off the 'ninth' part and just be 'The Doctor'. Maybe I'll pick it up again next time around."?
The Doctor doesn't "number" himself the way fans do. He's either the Doctor or he isn't.
The next two series openers;
In New Earth we have the predestination paradox of Cassandra having modelled Chip's body on the last person to call her beautiful, then possessing Chip's body and going back in time and calling her younger self beautiful.
Then, in Smith and Jones there's Martha meeting the Doctor "out of order".
"Crossing into established events is strictly forbidden ... except for cheap tricks."
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