Season 3 Trip: why not vengeful?

[miriel68]

Those of you who were there probably have more of the facts, but I would guess that TPTB came up with the Season 3 war idea toward the end of their Season 2 writing period, as an attempt to buoy their ratings-challenged show. Probably they had no time to weave elements into the previous scripts. C'mon, in "The Expanse," Archer asks Trip (his friend of 10 years) if Lizzie is younger or older than he is. I'm thinking they wrote it quickly.

You are absolutely right: Trip was Archer's best friend, they have known each other for almost a decade: is it believable he didn't even know Trip had a sister? A BELOVED sister? Of course not. They wrote it way TOO quickly. The idea of translating the abstract horror of 7 millions people killed into a concrete tragedy and grief of one well known and well liked character was a good one and Trineer did the best of the material he was given, IMO. The material was not the best, however.

 

[KendraW]

i disagree.

Trip's not the kind of guy that would hold on to hate and vengence. people deal with this type of anger differently and hes not one for dwelling on rage no matter how much he might of wanted to.

I didn't see him moping, he was down at time and stressed i think it's entirely undertandable. and he only ever showed how weiry he was around T'Pol, they are essentially of equal rank and probably his closest friend at that time, archer was off doing his own thing, the weight of the entire universe of his lonely shoulders,.

Most of the time Trip was still setting a good example and being morale booster of the crew because no one else was going to be.

I never needed to see the character of Elizabeth to imagine and feel for Trip losing her. he's un married and has no children she would have been the most important person in his life. I took the not seeing or heaaring much of her until degra turned up because he was the kind of guy that grieved alone, and i liked that about his character. would have been over the top and un realistic otherwise, and in my experience it ringed true.

And i totally understood his outbursts later on, he's being asked to write about a junior engineer, think about her when the poor guy has tried his danmedest not to think about his baby sister, the guilt alone is enough to mash his head. And at the very same time he has to work with the dude that killed her.

i think it was done the best it could have been done and actually done quite well. imo.

 

[angie]

Moping is not what is suggested though Trip is very much all about himself in season 4. I think Trip being angry would serve to be a better motivator for the crew than movie night. Writing letters about a crew member you lost is very important and Archer was dead on making Trip write for both trip and the girl's family.

 

[KendraW]

Moping is not what is suggested though Trip is very much all about himself in season 4. I think Trip being angry would serve to be a better motivator for the crew than movie night. Writing letters about a crew member you lost is very important and Archer was dead on making Trip write for both trip and the girl's family.

By this comment I assume you haven't had much experience being angry for long periods of time, its exhausting, draining mentally and physically, sickening and when whitnessed by others continuoulsly really is tiresome, boring and in no way a motivator.

I didn't say writing letters about crew members you lost isnt important, i'm saying that the guilt of taking time to contemplate another individuals death and trying to feel something about it, after you've spent the last few months putting thoughts of your baby sisters death out of your mind to carry on the mission is one hell of a head masher. I couldn't have done it. it would have put me over the edge.

And if i was archer i wouldn't have risked putting Trip, who he says is intergral to the completion of the misson, in a position where he could have lost it. And he did, good thing tpol was around to vent to otherwise i wonder how much he would have wound himself up if t'pol wasn't around and weather he would have really let rip into degra.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I was always a little confused that Trip lost his sister in the attack, but Archer was the guy always pissed off and determined. "Angry Archer" wasn't all that interesting after awhile and since he lost nobody, him starting the season like that was off. I can see it happening as he loses crew and does uncharacteristic things (like stranding aliens for their engines), but Trip should have been the emotional yardstick at first. He didn't have to be mopey or sullen, but quick(er) to anger, taking foolish chances, not caring about interpersonal relationships. Just some shading of the performance, enough to show he's carrying the pain, but not always bringing it up in conversation.

Then, as Archer starts showing how he's gradually feeling the weight, Trip slowly comes out of it so by the time Degra is killed, he'd gotten to know the man. Maybe he'd feel guilty for hating him and then guilty for not. But he returns to "normal Trip" while Archer descends. That would have been a fascining arc.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

It's a bit presumptuous for any of us to assume we know what anyone else has or has not experienced.

We all react to crisis and loss differently, and everyone's reaction is legitimate. And keep in mind that the way we react in "real life" is not necessarily the way it would be portrayed in the "reel life" of television.

The writers were probably trying to give us a cross-section of different reactions from our familiar characters, building over the course of the season, to illustrate the rising stakes of the mission. In hindsight, of course any show can be improved, including this one. Perhaps the nuances that have been brought up here were contemplated, even written in, but cut for time. We can't know, without being privy to the evolution of every script. Great ideas, though.

 

[gblews]

I think there was one really weak point about the whole thing with Trip's sister: she came out of blue only AFTER the Xindi's attack: we have never heard about her before, we have never seen her or even seen Trip talking about her. His grief and our understanding of it is therefore based on an abstract notion that it is a traumatic experience to lost a member of family and not on our emotive participation in his grief: in fact we feel sorry only for Trip and not for her sister. It is very difficult to carry on a convincing performance in such circumstances.

Yet he did, which says more about the actor than it does about the material.

I didn't have to see and know Elizabeth, or see and know her relationship with Trip in order to understand and "feel" Trip's pain and loss. We really weren't supposed to grieve for Elizabeth, it wasn't set up that way. This was all about Trip's grief.

As "abstract notions" go, this one is pretty easy to relate to for me. That's the reason the loss of a family member, whether it happens with or without the build up, usually works for me. Now if they'd shown Trip grieving over the loss of a Starfleet acquaintance or his dog, I would have needed some explanation as to why Trip was so distraught. But tell me its a "baby" sister or "kid" brother who was killed and I'm right there, no need for explanation or build up or getting to know the departed.

Its one of the most tried and true dramatic vehicles in movie history.

 

[commodore64]

It's a bit presumptuous for any of us to assume we know what anyone else has or has not experienced.

However, this is drama. In real life, people when they hear about death may break down and have a cup of coffee and break down again. And then laugh. And then pick up their kids. And then watch a movie. That's boring though to watch. Drama, hence the name, takes the very best of what life has to offer and makes it appealing to watch.

Trip's schizophrenic reaction to his no-named sister's (until end of season 2) death was dull and a plot device that unfortunately led to some dull plots.

The idea of making it "exactly like life" makes it a reality show. Enterprise was not a reality show. It's science fiction -- which means drama with elements of romance and humor ... in space.

Its one of the most tried and true dramatic vehicles in movie history.

Allow me to get this straight. Archer -- who's father was discriminated against by the Vulcans, thus causing Archer to be unable to forgive the Vulcans -- is unsympathetic because we never see this in action. However, Trip's plight is totally sympathetic ... even though we never see her death in action (or their relationship). At least we met Henry Archer and know the bond between the two. I find this ... well, very circumspect.

Trinneer didn't pull it off for me, despite being a good actor. You can't turn sh*t into shinola.

 

[angie]

Agreed---Trineer lacked the chops to sell this to me.Billingsley sold me more discussing how he and his son(who we never saw either) didn't see eye to eye and were estranged.He did it without overkill.

 

[miriel68]

Allow me to get this straight. Archer -- who's father was discriminated against by the Vulcans, thus causing Archer to be unable to forgive the Vulcans -- is unsympathetic because we never see this in action. However, Trip's plight is totally sympathetic ... even though we never see her death in action (or their relationship). At least we met Henry Archer and know the bond between the two. I find this ... well, very circumspect.

Lol. We really don't need to see much of Archer's father, because he is always present somehow in his son's life and Bakula or rather scriptwriters play it well. Personally, I'm not all that thrilled by my-daddy-is-my-hero motive - I remember something like this in J.A.G, for example, but I think it was presented in a convincing way and also Archer seemed gradually to free himself of the father's "shadow", which was interesting, too.
Trip's sister, on the other hand, is too obiously only a plot device and not a real person.Trip's insomnia seems more a way to put him together wit T'Pol than an effect of his grievance. In the season 4, again, there is no sister: the only thing Trip is thinking about, is a nice holiday on a beach. I know I'm supposed to feel sorry for the person who lost a member of family, but I also know that the writers use a simple emotional blackmail on me instead of doing some more solid work and I find it a bit irritating.

 

[gblews]

Its one of the most tried and true dramatic vehicles in movie history.

Allow me to get this straight. Archer -- who's father was discriminated against by the Vulcans, thus causing Archer to be unable to forgive the Vulcans -- is unsympathetic because we never see this in action. However, Trip's plight is totally sympathetic ... even though we never see her death in action (or their relationship). At least we met Henry Archer and know the bond between the two. I find this ... well, very circumspect.

Don't know to whom you're referring here. I always found Archer's prejudice against all things Vulcan because of the way his father was treated, to be quite understandable, though not justified, and 'rascist'. And I didn't have to be shown a road map of the relationship between Archer and his father to understand why Capn felt the way he did about the Vulcans. I didn't have to see Jonathan with Henry to understand, though the scenes were nice.

All I needed to know was that Archer thought the Vulcans had severly, and unnecessarily, wronged his father, causing Henry to die without realizing his life long dream to make me undertand completely why Jonathan had become a zenophobe.

Same with Trip and Elizabeth. She was his baby sister. As long as there is no dialogue like, "...but we were never close", or "I never knew her", then my assumption is (until shown otherwise) that there is love there, a lot of love. Why else make the dead one his close relative? If you can't understand that dynamic then I hate to think of all of the other little nuances that may have been missed.

...despite being a good actor. You can't turn sh*t into shinola.

Well we know for certain some actors can't.

 

[Captain X]

All we saw of Henry Archer was a little bit in the pilot episode, and what little we saw showed us that while Jon was already prejudiced against Vulcans, Henry was trying to teach his son to get around that. Recall that he rebuked Jon when he referred to Soval as "Ambassador Pointy".

As for Trip, several posters have already demonstrated that, despite a lack of set up with Elizabeth Tucker, the writers and CT did a fairly good portrayal of the effects her death had on Trip. Naturally this won't matter to some people, who simply don't like the fact that his "hurt" storyline had the result of pairing him up with a character they'd have rather been paired with someone else.

I also can't help but notice that this thread is essentially starting to repeat itself. Is it doomed to an endless loop of the same old "Trip was/wasn't too mopey/vengeful enough"/"No/Yes he wasn't/was."? Please don't...

 

[pookha]

i thought trips reaction made since considering he was an officer whose ship was dependent on him to help save his world.
he threw himself into his work partly because he had to due to the nutsy nature of the expanse but it also kept him from really having to face the full impact of lizzies death.

and we had seen trip have this reaction before.

we see a little of it in shuttle pod one.

and trip certainly was hostile toward the xindi though he knew he coudltn let mindless vengance take over with the stakes being so high.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

This has been an interesting discussion for the most part, but the rock-throwing is unnecessary. There is no need to offer your view with a side order of condescension, or to state your opinion as if it were fact. These tactics tend to weaken your position anyway, and just put off anyone who is already inclined to disagree with you.

We all view these episodes and characters from our own unique perspective. There's no "right" or "wrong" about someone's personal opinions and feelings regarding the OP's question, or any other aspect of the show. Of course, you might have a different interpretation--there are as many interpretations as there are people. But that's the point. It's all good.

 

[commodore64]

he threw himself into his work partly because he had to due to the nutsy nature of the expanse but it also kept him from really having to face the full impact of lizzies death.

I guess here's my issue though -- we really didn't *see* him overworking. We heard he overworked, but compared to the others, I never really felt like he was burning the midnight oil. Why? Every time he's burning the "midnight oil" someone else is up and has been up.

In addition, through the script, I never saw him struggling to try and forget about his sister from Expanse to The Forgotten ... which again lessened the impact of his breakdown.

Gblews, to each his or her own.

 

[Captain X]

Again, we saw him having trouble sleeping and having nightmares. We saw him burying himself in his work in more than one episode (Forgotten comes to mind. We saw him break down and cry in an The Forgotten. We saw him dictating a letter to Taylor's parents while he placed his hand on a picture of his sister. We saw him get confrontational with Degra to the point it looked like he was going to lash out physically at him. If you didn't see any of that, then you weren't watching the show. Whether you thought it was good characterization or not is a matter of taste. But to claim that you didn't see any of that is either a matter of selective memory or an otherwise very poor memory.

 

[angie]

All I see is a few lazily scripted plot devices.

 

[Captain X]

So selective memory then; not a surprise.

 

[pookha]

as to why archer was angry ..
well , a different archer starts to emerge about the time of judgment.
he is aleady pretty pissed off about being hunted by the klingons something that
goes through the expanse episode.
but, most of all he believes he is leading his crew on what is a one way suicide mission even if they save earth.
that now he is going to have to withdraw from his crew to be able to do this.
something he told malcolm all the way back in minefield he didnt want to do.

and there is shading to this as he transitions into dark archer through the expanse episode but about around the time they run into shran and shran sends the blueprints
we start to see a bit of hope to return and a gradual blending of courtly archer back in.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

The discussion has become repetitive and is veering off-topic, so I'd say we're pretty much done here.

Captain X, you're on notice. Kindly lay off the unsubtle personal sideswipes.

Closed.