Script blunders!

[aridas sofia]

If those “food slots” in the transporter room are really supply slots that can deliver communicators, tricorders, phasers, etc to landing parties leaving the ship, then it makes much more sense. The “chicken soup in the transporter room” scenario should be the outlier rather than the norm, but the slots can deliver it if that’s what you really need.

 

[Warped9]

When I see the ceiling of Main Engineering I’m left with two major impressions:

- the ceiling could well be the underside of the upper surface of the secondary hull,
- and we’re only seeing half of Main Engineering, the other side never seen off camera.

 

[blssdwlf]

The real bones of contention at play is that while some things might be nailed down as they went they weren’t really scrutinizing the scripts enough to make certain all references to tech, hardware and ship locales were kept consistent. Everything was at the mercy of get the show in the can and no one is gonna be scrutinizing this anyway.

Little did they know…

So true. Thankfully Sickbay seems to be Deck 5 according to two episodes with no counter episodes. And we have a line for multiple engine rooms in one episode and another episode (on a different ship) visually confirm at least two engine rooms. And the flight deck was consistent across all it's appearances because only one maquette was built and filmed.

But they are NOT two different ships. The Phase II ship is a much less thorough refitting of the TOS ship than what was depicted in TMP. Jefferies went out of his way to show it with the same appearance hangar deck and all he did was make it fit the space he’d allotted in his original cross section.

If it were the same appearance hangar deck (or flight deck) then his drawing for Phase II should match the maquette, right? If it doesn't then that would indicate Jefferies changed the design for Phase II and not the other way around where you've described the maquette as distorted from the Phase II design.

The only difference is on the Phase II refit, he moves the pylons forward to give himself a bit more room. Given that the space is blacked out on the TOS cross section, I was left to think the hangar deck hadn’t been fully envisioned when he drew it. Once it was, he was left with what he had drawn and Datin had built to accommodate filming. I don’t see that as any different than the offset turbolift on the bridge. A “real” bridge has the turbolift behind the captain, and railings much higher.

Are these my opinions? Of course. I’m a historian and would be the first to admit that any exercise in historical reasoning is subjective. But those opinions are guided by the available evidence, and shouldn’t be critiqued for being opinions (which they of course are) but rather for the quality of their reasoning based on the available evidence.

It seems to be a very forced comparison given that they are different ships and as you noted, Phase II are improvements over the original ship which by definition would mean the Phase II design is changed from the original. So in actuality the flight deck maquette for the TOS Enterprise is not distorted.

If transporter room one is out, it might mean just that room, or it might mean the ship’s ability to transport is totally out. Which brings us to the underlying assumption we need to confront when postulating how many transporters there are- how much power do these things use? If you want to say not very much compared to those warp engines, then maybe you could beam fifty people at a time from nine different rooms. They become a possible method of emergency escape as strongly hinted at in Doomsday Machine. But in that same episode we get the strong impression that the transporter meeds warp-level power and if that is on the fritz, you can’t even beam one person. So somehow Constellation could beam everyone quickly from a wrecked ship, while Enterprise couldn’t beam one guy from a minimally damaged ship. Constellation did it faster than they could decouple the saucer and fly it down. It’s a bit of a conundrum to figure out, but I am left to think Constellation had emergency transporters but it was very difficult to disengage the saucer, while Enterprise maybe only had a few transporter rooms and an easier way to detach the saucer.

In "The Doomsday Machine" the transporters were malfunctioning from damage and not from a lack of power. We've seen the Enterprise beam more than 6 people at a time ("City on the Edge of Forever" and "Day of the Dove") but also limited by how many transporter frequencies are available due to environmental interference ("Tholian Web").
Looking back at "Mudd's Women" we see the Enterprise going down to less than an hour of battery power yet Kirk is beaming up and down with people and he's not concerned with the loss of the crew, only the ship. This would imply with that low amount of battery power they could still abandon ship. The Constellation when she was abandoned had more than that amount of power left since they were able to restore 1/3 impulse power - far more than the Enterprise's batteries in "Mudd's Women".

 

[aridas sofia]

“If it were the same appearance hangar deck (or flight deck) then his drawing for Phase II should match the maquette, right?”

Not if the maquette was purposely distorted to allow filming, to accommodate the lenses used to film it, and possibly to give the impression of a bigger space.

“If it doesn't then that would indicate Jefferies changed the design for Phase II and not the other way around where you've described the maquette as distorted from the Phase II design.”

This discussion has become circular, and as you said above, has devolved into contrasting opinions. I guess at this point I should just point you towards David Shaw’s research on all the iterations of the TOS and Phase II ship, his conversations with Datin and the documentary evidence of Jefferies’ intent. There is reason for me to believe Jefferies was fixing things and not just changing things willy nilly. In a sense, that is true with the hangar, too, in that an impression was left that a hangar could fit in a 947’ ship that simply could not fit there. And we know for certain he intended the ship to be 947’ since he provided a scale bar on his drawings.

“It seems to be a very forced comparison given that they are different ships and as you noted, Phase II are improvements over the original ship which by definition would mean the Phase II design is changed from the original. So in actuality the flight deck maquette for the TOS Enterprise is not distorted. “

You are saying two contradictory things here. First, that they are two different ships. And second, that they are the same ship and that the Phase II ship is a refit of the TOS ship. If I put a spoiler, new engine and transmission, and new top on my Mustang, that is a refit. It is the same car. If I extend the primary hull about 10%, replace the bridge module and nacelles, and pad the secondary hull a little bit, it is a refit. You can put one silhouette over the other and see it for yourself. It is the same ship.

But as I said, circular discussion and all that. Check out Shaw’s work, compare the silhouettes, and if you still believe what you believe, good for you. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[blssdwlf]

“If it were the same appearance hangar deck (or flight deck) then his drawing for Phase II should match the maquette, right?”

Not if the maquette was purposely distorted to allow filming, to accommodate the lenses used to film it, and possibly to give the impression of a bigger space.

Yeah we're back to square one. Unfortunately there isn't any proof to support this.

“If it doesn't then that would indicate Jefferies changed the design for Phase II and not the other way around where you've described the maquette as distorted from the Phase II design.”

This discussion has become circular, and as you said above, has devolved into contrasting opinions. I guess at this point I should just point you towards David Shaw’s research on all the iterations of the TOS and Phase II ship, his conversations with Datin and the documentary evidence of Jefferies’ intent. There is reason for me to believe Jefferies was fixing things and not just changing things willy nilly. In a sense, that is true with the hangar, too, in that an impression was left that a hangar could fit in a 947’ ship that simply could not fit there. And we know for certain he intended the ship to be 947’ since he provided a scale bar on his drawings.

Yeah, we have contrasting opinions on what is the reference. I was hoping you would provide a photo or diagram of what a correct TOS flight deck should look like but what you're pointing to is a diagram of a flight deck for the Phase II ship and saying that's what it should have been all along. Since it doesn't look like there is any other reference on your mind we'll agree to disagree on the reference.

“It seems to be a very forced comparison given that they are different ships and as you noted, Phase II are improvements over the original ship which by definition would mean the Phase II design is changed from the original. So in actuality the flight deck maquette for the TOS Enterprise is not distorted. “

You are saying two contradictory things here. First, that they are two different ships. And second, that they are the same ship and that the Phase II ship is a refit of the TOS ship. If I put a spoiler, new engine and transmission, and new top on my Mustang, that is a refit. It is the same car. If I extend the primary hull about 10%, replace the bridge module and nacelles, and pad the secondary hull a little bit, it is a refit. You can put one silhouette over the other and see it for yourself. It is the same ship.

That's weird. It's your argument that the Phase II flight deck is what the TOS flight deck should be. I was only pointing out that those are different ships and different versions no matter which tack you decide to take.

But as I said, circular discussion and all that. Check out Shaw’s work, compare the silhouettes, and if you still believe what you believe, good for you. We will have to agree to disagree.

Speaking of silhouettes and distortions - what do you think are the distorted parts on the maquette? It would be enlightening to see what you identified as the distorted parts. And of those distorted parts have you ever compared it to the 11' filming model? But, if you're not able to provide, that's okay. In hindsight, I should've also asked what you think the distorted parts are early on.

 

[aridas sofia]

I think the open end opposite the clamshell doors is far too wide and elliptical. And I suspect the whole thing is way too long, perhaps to make it appear to be bigger and give more room to fit and move the shuttlecraft model. The drawing Jefferies did appears to be for a forced perspective model because of the way the galleries taper. But Datin did not build the model to match that drawing, and among other things, the galleries do not taper. So it appears to be an amalgam of forced perspective and an exaggerated opening to allow for camera, lighting, etc. Thus my calling it distorted - it isn’t one thing or the other but appears to be an artistic mashup of several things.

 

[blssdwlf]

@aridas sofia - Thank you for detailing what you think is exaggerated or distorted on the maquette. A long time ago I had made a screen-accurate flight deck based on what was aired. This was independent of modeling the ship (based on Blomvquist's renderings on CultTVMan). The flight deck (maquette) inner surface matches the exterior hull contours. Where it doesn't fit is from the sidebays sticking out (on a 947' ship).

Would it make more sense that the maquette was built to fit the shape of the 11' filming ship and not the one drawn by Jefferies? If the forward end was exaggerated or distorted, wouldn't it not fit correctly?

 

[aridas sofia]

Now we are really getting into the realm of speculation on my part. The maquette was supposed to have been built to be filmed from both the side and the back, but was built to only be filmed from the back. Why? Might it have been that it was so stretched as to set up another problem like the bridge of having inside and outside very obviously not match if seen from the side? I suspect so. Datin added details on the ceiling that don’t match what Jefferies has on his drawing. Two are added that are angled up and to the left, and up and to the right. Was this Datin’s attempt to cover their asses and show the pylons attaching to the hull? Maybe. I do think he was trying to make the thing work with the shape and configuration of the secondary hull. But I also think he was confronted with an impossible task. Someone - I suspect Roddenberry because of the line in the Writers’ Guide saying the hangar could fit a fleet of airliners - wanted it to appear much bigger than was possible. I think Jefferies tried to accommodate him with his drawing, and Datin tried to make it all work with the 11-foot model he had built.

I want to add, just to clear up any misconception I might have left you with, that while I am saying the Phase II ship is a refit of the TOS ship, I am also saying I think there were many areas of the Phase II ship that would have been unaltered from TOS. That’s why I am saying the hangar deck could have been one of those spaces. I tried to show some Phase II details on my TOS cross section just to muddy the waters further the other way ie, some of what we were going to see in Phase II was there all along. (I even asked Donny Versiga to do stripped down, TOS versions of his TMP corridors to infer they too, had been there all along.) But all this is definitely my idea and not what I think was intended - except for that hangar deck.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

When I see the ceiling of Main Engineering I’m left with two major impressions:

- the ceiling could well be the underside of the upper surface of the secondary hull,
- and we’re only seeing half of Main Engineering, the other side never seen off camera.

Agreed. Most of the Enterprise interiors that Jefferies designed give an impression of what area of the ship they're located in just by their general shape.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Agreed. Most of the Enterprise interiors that Jefferies designed give an impression of what area of the ship they're located in just by their general shape.

This might explain the enigmatic "B Deck - in or near engineering' and "Seal off B Deck, sections 18Y through 23B" from the episode Court Martial, with the areas surrounding the upper level of the Engineering Deck being the topmost deck of the secondary hull or "A" deck, while the "lower level of the Engineering Deck" (The Enemy Within) is on "B" deck?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Agreed. Most of the Enterprise interiors that Jefferies designed give an impression of what area of the ship they're located in just by their general shape.

Yes. Similarly, on Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, the sub's control room had an arched, ribbed ceiling that seemed a decent match for the top of the miniature's outer hull. But later in the series, they added a circular staircase to the room that went up through the ceiling. The admiral is in his quarters and you call him to the bridge? He comes down that staircase. Brilliant!

 

[Phaser Two]

One piece of evidence to support two engine rooms that I don't believe I've ever seen mentioned, possibly because it requires a bit of a logical leap that may be a bridge () too far:

In "Space Seed," we clearly see that Khan and his men have, logically, seized (an) Engineering. They cut off the bridge's life support systems from there and capture and incapacitate Scotty.

Of course, near the end of the episode Khan somehow "closes [the] line" to "the Engineering section," preventing Spock from flooding it with gas, and goes there, where he starts an engine override and coolly figures out how to hack into the intercom system (thus learning that Kirk is coming).

One problem: none of Khan's men and women are in the room. The Enterprise seems to be in flight at least when Khan "discards" the Botany Bay, so abandoning Engineering is strange. And even if the ship isn't moving, I would think that a group of brilliant warrior-kings and queens would maintain a presence in Engineering regardless due to its clear strategic importance. After all, they were controlling a crew that, while not as strong and fast, was still about four times their number and knew the ship better. Given everything that can be done from Engineering - including cutting off life support to the bridge - leaving it unoccupied is odd.

And of course my solution is to conclude that Khan's men did stay in Engineering - in the primary hull. Khan, however, fled to the secondary hull. Good thing he noticed that the deck plans included two engine rooms.

 

[Mytran]

One piece of evidence to support two engine rooms that I don't believe I've ever seen mentioned, possibly because it requires a bit of a logical leap that may be a bridge () too far:

In "Space Seed," we clearly see that Khan and his men have, logically, seized (an) Engineering. They cut off the bridge's life support systems from there and capture and incapacitate Scotty.

Of course, near the end of the episode Khan somehow "closes [the] line" to "the Engineering section," preventing Spock from flooding it with gas, and goes there, where he starts an engine override and coolly figures out how to hack into the intercom system (thus learning that Kirk is coming).

One problem: none of Khan's men and women are in the room. The Enterprise seems to be in flight at least when Khan "discards" the Botany Bay, so abandoning Engineering is strange. And even if the ship isn't moving, I would think that a group of brilliant strategists would maintain a presence in Engineering regardless due to its clear strategic importance. After all, they were controlling a crew that, while not as strong and fast, was still about four times their number and knew the ship better. Given everything that can be done from Engineering - including cutting off life support to the bridge - leaving it unoccupied is odd.

And of course my solution is to conclude that Khan's men did stay in Engineering - in the primary hull. Khan, however, fled to the secondary hull. Good thing he noticed that the deck plans included two engine rooms.

That's some clever thinking!
The only thing I will add is that whichever Engine Room Kirk runs off to is probably on the same deck as the Briefing Room, because he leaves via corridor and not the turbolift he arrived in a few seconds earlier.

 

[Phaser Two]

That's some clever thinking!
The only thing I will add is that whichever Engine Room Kirk runs off to is probably on the same deck as the Briefing Room, because he leaves via corridor and not the turbolift he arrived in a few seconds earlier.

Thanks! I've had that theory for many, many years but never mentioned it here before.

I thought someone might raise Kirk's avenue of departure; good catch. Apart from the director (Marc Daniels I think?) giving Shatner the chance for what ends up as an awesome-looking sprint, which is probably the best explanation for what happened there, I always figured that Kirk had to cross over to another turbolift because he was headed to the secondary hull. He's coming from the "medical decompression chamber," which is presumably with Sickbay on either Deck Five or Deck Seven or somewhere nearby (I'm not ready to fold on what deck Sickbay is on just yet), and there doesn't seem to be any good reason for the briefing room (even if there's only one) to be in the secondary hull, so he's making a short initial trip within the primary hull, then realizes he has to take a longer one. Maybe he wants to catch a more direct turbolift. Or maybe the distribution of the gas means he needs to take a different route. But I think he's bound for the secondary hull.

Also, to tie in with another point in this thread, if Sickbay and the decompression chamber really are on Deck Five and so is Engineering as I believe some posters are saying, then Kirk's order to "gas all decks but this one" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'm pretty sure you've got to take out all the Augments/superpeople in Engineering and on the bridge at a minimum. We know they hit the armory - and for that matter we know that Spock tried to get Engineering as well. So wherever Kirk, Spock and McGivers were, it wasn't on the same deck as (any) Engineering. The best explanation for THAT problem is most likely that the decompression chamber is on Deck Eight or some relatively low-value deck in terms of command and control.

 

[blssdwlf]

Now we are really getting into the realm of speculation on my part. The maquette was supposed to have been built to be filmed from both the side and the back, but was built to only be filmed from the back. Why? Might it have been that it was so stretched as to set up another problem like the bridge of having inside and outside very obviously not match if seen from the side? I suspect so. Datin added details on the ceiling that don’t match what Jefferies has on his drawing. Two are added that are angled up and to the left, and up and to the right. Was this Datin’s attempt to cover their asses and show the pylons attaching to the hull? Maybe. I do think he was trying to make the thing work with the shape and configuration of the secondary hull. But I also think he was confronted with an impossible task. Someone - I suspect Roddenberry because of the line in the Writers’ Guide saying the hangar could fit a fleet of airliners - wanted it to appear much bigger than was possible. I think Jefferies tried to accommodate him with his drawing, and Datin tried to make it all work with the 11-foot model he had built.

I want to add, just to clear up any misconception I might have left you with, that while I am saying the Phase II ship is a refit of the TOS ship, I am also saying I think there were many areas of the Phase II ship that would have been unaltered from TOS. That’s why I am saying the hangar deck could have been one of those spaces. I tried to show some Phase II details on my TOS cross section just to muddy the waters further the other way ie, some of what we were going to see in Phase II was there all along. (I even asked Donny Versiga to do stripped down, TOS versions of his TMP corridors to infer they too, had been there all along.) But all this is definitely my idea and not what I think was intended - except for that hangar deck.

So I went and found a Phase II diagram from ForgottenTrek and scaled it at 1000' to Blomvquist's TOS Enterprise at 947'. Was the Phase II supposed to be 1000' or some other length?
Assuming that is the correct Phase II reference it looks like the Phase II flight deck doors are not quarter circle like that on the TOS Enterprise and the Phase II tail section is taller and wider than physically possible on the TOS Enterprise. I'm not so sure that the Phase II flight deck could be used as a reference to what the TOS flight deck should have been like...

The best explanation for THAT problem is most likely that the decompression chamber is on Deck Eight or some relatively low-value deck in terms of command and control.

Probably not Deck 8 as that was mentioned in "I, Mudd" as where Auxiliary Control is
Even though Spock said the gas was in all sections there do appear to be places where it isn't otherwise Scotty would've been knocked out and unable to respond on the intercom. I'm guessing Kirk followed a path where the gas takes more time to reach to get to Engineering which Khan would've known about since he studied the manuals. This could be accounted for during the camera cut. That specific engine room where Kirk went to would've been due to the same low gas path Khan took. I'd imagine that there were further engine rooms in the engineering section that were not accessible due to those paths being gassed.
As to why none of Khan's people were guarding the engineering it could be that they were all guarding the armory and rest of the crew. Khan could've left engineering on automatic to concentrate on the crew and felt confident no one could escape to get to engineering.

 

[Warped9]

The clamshell doors on MJ’s cutaway diagram found in TMoST look to be a quarter sphere. But on the 11 footer they don’t look the same—they are distinctly less than a quarter sphere.

I have long come to the realization that the drawing in TMoST and the flight deck miniature are both creative licence for effect and do not represent what the real flight deck within a 947ft. ship would look like. And I addressed that in my 3D model.

Ditto the shuttlecraft where the miniature and the fullsize exterior mockup are both scaled smaller than they would actually be, while concurrently the fullsize interior mockup is made larger than it would actually be. And I addressed that as well in my 3D model.

 

[Phaser Two]

Probably not Deck 8 as that was mentioned in "I, Mudd" as where Auxiliary Control is

Whoops! No, not Deck Eight then. Thanks and good job. It's funny, because I have lots of these episodes committed relatively well to memory due to my love of dialogue (and my boundless wonder for how good the dialogue in Star Trek usually was), but I don't seem to have too many of these deck references down! Now I have something to focus on next time I do a rewatch.

Even though Spock said the gas was in all sections there do appear to be places where it isn't otherwise Scotty would've been knocked out and unable to respond on the intercom. I'm guessing Kirk followed a path where the gas takes more time to reach to get to Engineering which Khan would've known about since he studied the manuals. This could be accounted for during the camera cut. That specific engine room where Kirk went to would've been due to the same low gas path Khan took. I'd imagine that there were further engine rooms in the engineering section that were not accessible due to those paths being gassed.

Long ago I sent Phil Farrand, the author of the Nitpickers' Guides, a nitpick, which he invited people to do, and it was about Scotty's ability to resist the gas. (Phil sent me back a certification that I was part of the Nitpickers' Club or something in response, as he did for everyone, and I loved it.) My point was that if Scotty could remain conscious, how effective could the gas be? And against enhanced beings, no less?

Now, Scotty can often resist things at superhuman levels (see also "The Naked Time," "The Tholian Web," "By Any Other Name" - almost!, and of course "The Final Frontier"), but I fanwanked in my note to Phil that maybe Scotty knew just where to stand so the gas wouldn't completely incapacitate him based on ventilation patterns and other engineering-related knowledge and calculations. I theorized that Khan figured out the same things, but none of his group did. Luckily! (Scotty's ability to remain conscious also serves to advance the plot, of course, as you noted, but that's okay because it reinforces Scotty's total awesomeness.)

As to why none of Khan's people were guarding the engineering it could be that they were all guarding the armory and rest of the crew. Khan could've left engineering on automatic to concentrate on the crew and felt confident no one could escape to get to engineering.

That's possible. The emphasis on the armory is interesting. I believe the only other time it's referenced is in "Day of the Dove" when we actually see it, though with everything transformed into swords. But the armory, unseen, is a big strategic consideration in "Space Seed." Khan checks in with it first when he gets frustrated in the briefing room. Spock (wrongly, as it turns out - Scotty had the right idea) countermands Scotty's plan and orders him there. I always figured they were going to find all the supermen/women and stun them with phaser rifles before they could recover from the gas. The idea of Spock and Scotty doing that cleanup work to "retake the vessel" is militarily fascinating.

I still think that Khan would have left at least one person in Engineering, though, and I think he did - in the primary hull. Meanwhile, Kirk and Khan have their duel in the secondary hull. It also generally seems that use of the term "Engineering section" or "Engineering deck" implies the secondary hull, as in "The Enemy Within." (The captain having the idea to go to Deck Five/Six/Seven as the best place to elude a mass search doesn't seem to fit.)

 

[blssdwlf]

The clamshell doors on MJ’s cutaway diagram found in TMoST look to be a quarter sphere. But on the 11 footer they don’t look the same—they are distinctly less than a quarter sphere.

Yeah, the flight deck doors (clamshell) on the TMoST large cutaway are not quarter circle while the detailed drawing of the flight deck has the quarter circle. The 11' doors appear to be quarter circle from some angles and not in others.

I have long come to the realization that the drawing in TMoST and the flight deck miniature are both creative licence for effect and do not represent what the real flight deck within a 947ft. ship would look like. And I addressed that in my 3D model.

Ditto the shuttlecraft where the miniature and the fullsize exterior mockup are both scaled smaller than they would actually be, while concurrently the fullsize interior mockup is made larger than it would actually be. And I addressed that as well in my 3D model.

You took two different and interesting approaches to square away the inconsistencies. You created your own smaller version of the flight deck to fit inside a 947' Enterprise but you expand the exterior of the shuttle to become larger than the stated 24' length to fit most of the interior. Considering that there is dialogue for the size of the shuttle but none for the Enterprise did you ever consider doing the opposite and enlarging the Enterprise to fit the filmed interior and shrinking the shuttle interior to fit the length of the shuttle?

 

[Warped9]

^^ Others have accepted the interior set as actual and created a 30-31ft. shuttlecraft. That didn’t work for me so I set that aside.

Interestingly if you take the nacelles and the rear landing gear off my model you end up with a main hull of about 24ft. I wasn’t planning on that, but there it is.

Further proof the fullsize exterior mockup was too small—it was only about 22ft. long.

 

[blssdwlf]

^^ Others have accepted the interior set as actual and created a 30-31ft. shuttlecraft. That did work for me so I set that aside.

Interestingly if you take the nacelles and the rear landing gear off my model you end up with a main hull of about 24ft. I wasn’t planning on that, but there it is.

Further proof the fullsize exterior mockup was too small—it was only about 22ft. long.

Since you scaled up your shuttle exterior to fit the filmed shuttle interior why not do the same for the filmed flight deck and scale up the Enterprise for consistency?