Read the previous messages. @Awesome Possum is explicitly saying that Mudd is running a prostitution ring.
Scifi with aggressive sexuality
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He could very well be running a prostitution ring. These brides weren't being delivered to the miners, yet they were already taking the Venus drug. Again, as I said, the Venus drug is illegal, which means scarcity will drive the prices up. They are taking the Venus drug with no set destination, no completed transactions, and no prospects until Mudd overhears Captain Kirk talking about the lithium miners on Rigel XII. Then he hatches the idea to sell off the women as brides to the (what be believes is) wealthy miners.
So what were they doing taking the scarce, expensive Venus drug if they didn't have any prospects up to that point?
Are you sure about this (I don't remember all the details)? Where was Mudd going when he was intercepted by the Enterprise?
Edit. From Memory Alpha:
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I've already said that I'm sure the episode itself provides plenty of wriggle-room for its light (and not very realistic) treatment of the subject matter. That's not at issue. What's at issue is whether that should be the case if a similar story were told in today's Trek.
Obviously the answer is no. But we are talking about an episode wrote in the 1966. Twenty years after that, Tasha Yar escaped from a similar situation and enlisted in the Star Fleet.
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Which, if I remember, was my point. It was a very of its time story, but with a little change could very well be the plot of a modern rom-com. Remove the slaver aspect, change Venus drug for a make over (geeky girl taking her glasses off and letting her hair down), even right down to the grumpy man who doesn't need no woman to cook for him, he can cook himself, but oh look, he's a bit of a slob and doesn't keep his pans clean and she cooks for him and finds out the true key to being attractive is self confidence, yet opts to stay with the grumpy man because really that's all a woman needs.
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They didn't say where he was going, only that the Enterprise was in pursuit. The whole reason they (the Enterprise) had to go to Rigel XII was because the pursuit into an asteroid field burned out their lithium crystals.
While in the turbolift during Harry's fast talking to Kirk, Eve says to the Captain, "I'm sorry for what he's saying, sir. He's used to buying and selling people..." before she's cut off by Harry. So even if this particular situation doesn't involve prostitution, it's clear that Harry buys and sells people.
We do know Rigel XII wasn't their initial destination, because Eve during the court hearing stated that the Captain was taking them in the opposite direction of where they had been heading.
Obsi
From Memory Alpha:
So he wasn't wandering in space, hoping to run into a customer.
"Provide women to settlers" doesn't sound like prostitution, people trafficking or slavery to you?
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I don't hear that anywhere in the episode, though, and I just watched it. In fact, there's a scene where the women are yelling at Harry that they want husbands, and Harry promises that he will find them husbands. Also, if they're already being delivered to a destination, why would they so try to deceive the crew and gain their desire?
Obviously I'm not denying that that episode is infested with sexist cliches. I'm arguing that a concept of a woman looking for a non-romantic marriage is not inherently wrong. How this concept has been illustrated in the episode is just appalling.
These words were chosen by those who wrote the Memory-Alpha page. Not me
Yes. I know. All already part of the discussion here, bro.
Don't get me started on the "rape gangs" thing, which a species of weird all its own.
Ok, we are talking about the concept or the execution? Because the latter is at least creepy
I believe they talked about them on the "Discovery Channel"...Don't get me started on the "rape gangs" thing, which a species of weird all its own.
Interesting post, @Bob The Skutter.
I've only watched one season of Orphan Black so far but I suppose you're right. These women also aren't constantly agonizing over some male love interest. And it's not just about sisterhood but also motherhood. Pretty strong themes.
I really liked season 1 but for some weird reason totally fell out of love with it in the first episode of season 2. It must be because I watched something completely different right before I watched that and all of a sudden it felt so silly and unrealistic.
Once upon a time, despite its flaws, is often cited as the female-centred version of Lost. In fact, its creators had both worked on Lost, and while Lost often explored themes of fatherhood (most notably with Jack and his dad), Once upon a Time is exploring motherhood (Snow-Emma-Henry).
What Once upon a Time definitely does not do, is explore female desire and sexuality. I'm mentioning that because it's part of what this thread is about. Again, I've not watched all of Once upon a Time yet but so far Emma is a pretty sex-less character. I usually find this "pure female protagonist" trope pretty annoying. We don't like it when women are defined only through their relationship to men and talk about nothing but their romantic attraction to men, but the other extreme is a pretty bad stereotype, too. I do want my female protagonists to explore their sexuality, too. It's part of being a woman/human.
I don't think the show is just reducing us to the mother role, since we see the women in it be competent and busy with all kinds of other things, too. But this is a pretty big thing to leave out if you ask me. At least if they take the female narrative and women as full human beings seriously.
That doesn't mean we need to get lots of graphic sex scenes. I realize the restrictions of network TV, but even network TV manages to say something about male desire all the time. Why not female desire?
I'll have to think about what other shows might qualify as particularly embracing female narratives later. But that was a really good start, @Bob The Skutter.
I've only watched one season of Orphan Black so far but I suppose you're right. These women also aren't constantly agonizing over some male love interest. And it's not just about sisterhood but also motherhood. Pretty strong themes.
I really liked season 1 but for some weird reason totally fell out of love with it in the first episode of season 2. It must be because I watched something completely different right before I watched that and all of a sudden it felt so silly and unrealistic.
Once upon a time, despite its flaws, is often cited as the female-centred version of Lost. In fact, its creators had both worked on Lost, and while Lost often explored themes of fatherhood (most notably with Jack and his dad), Once upon a Time is exploring motherhood (Snow-Emma-Henry).
What Once upon a Time definitely does not do, is explore female desire and sexuality. I'm mentioning that because it's part of what this thread is about. Again, I've not watched all of Once upon a Time yet but so far Emma is a pretty sex-less character. I usually find this "pure female protagonist" trope pretty annoying. We don't like it when women are defined only through their relationship to men and talk about nothing but their romantic attraction to men, but the other extreme is a pretty bad stereotype, too. I do want my female protagonists to explore their sexuality, too. It's part of being a woman/human.
I don't think the show is just reducing us to the mother role, since we see the women in it be competent and busy with all kinds of other things, too. But this is a pretty big thing to leave out if you ask me. At least if they take the female narrative and women as full human beings seriously.
That doesn't mean we need to get lots of graphic sex scenes. I realize the restrictions of network TV, but even network TV manages to say something about male desire all the time. Why not female desire?
I'll have to think about what other shows might qualify as particularly embracing female narratives later. But that was a really good start, @Bob The Skutter.
^As time goes on there is a little more by way of sexuality. Nothing graphic or necessarily sex positive or negative but Emma has a few love interests, Henry's father and Hook being the notable ones. Ragina falls in love with Robin Hood, who of course has Marion and Ragina's sister mixed in there, Snow having a past with Hercules or some such, Belle and Rumple, and recently Red Riding Hood with Dorothy and Henry with his first girlfriend. Most of it is fairly chaste and as I say not necessarily sex positive or negative really but the women have tended to be less victim or their circumstance, passive in their own love life as was the case.
It was presented as their ONLY way to live. Service a man, family, husband, someone. The idea was back assed even for the 60s.
I don't remember that they said that it was the only way to escape from their situation, but it could well be that their respective societies were socially like the U.S. in the 50s. Even in the TNG we saw member worlds of the Federation that weren't exactly bastions of progressivism.
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@Bob The Skutter , excellent examples.
Also add Buffy (obviously), Lilith's Brood, Contact (book not movie, movie sucked), not sci-fi/fantasy, but Criminal Minds.
Criminal Minds is a super feminist show, and an especially interesting one, because it often depicts violence against women. It has to, because that's the reality of the world we live in and what the characters would realistically be investigating. They've done a great job of making it a major theme and expressly addressing it, as well as keeping the burden of fault with society and perpetrators, and not with the victims. Most shows just have it as the norm without ever examining why that's a problem, and that's where you start to get into entertainment that contributes to rape culture. I haven't watched it in a couple years, but J.J., Garcia, and Prentiss are all very strong female characters.
I think it's also worth remembering that "strong female character" doesn't mean she has to be any of the following:
- physically strong
- emotionally strong
- smart
- successful
- a good role model
It is great to have all those characteristics represented in women in movies and on TV, but having a strong female character simply means that the character herself is realized: she doesn't depend solely on either other characters (especially male characters) or tropes to define her. Strong female characters can be weak, fucked-up messes, if they depict realistic women whose characters have some internal definition and, here's the key word again, agency, not just external definition.
Buffy is a great example of this, because it has so many female characters who are all different kinds of women, and they're all strong. I know one episode that a lot of people criticize is the one where Buffy goes to college and has a one night stand. She thinks the guy really likes her but he was just using her, and it completely wrecks her. I've read/heard criticisms that this was not a good depiction of a strong female character. But the thing is, she was 18 -- sometimes young girls get played by older guys they think like them and it's devastating. Buffy was on a pretty typical course of emotional development for a girl her age, it was a normal reaction to a realistic situation that a girl like Buffy would have had pretty good odds of experiencing -- one I'm sure a lot of girls in the audience could identify with. And that's one of the things that I think is really important -- when we see that our heroes have flaws, especially flaws we can relate to, it can make us feel better about having those flaws ourselves.
The show also has Faith: fucked up, emotional wreck, uses sex to get what she wants, Anya: so desperate to get married, Tara: vulnerable and soft and easily manipulated, Willow: so much going on with her. The thing is, all these characters have traits, even traits that are large parts of their personalities, that are, well, negative. Traits that are often negative stereotypes of women. But because the time was taken to craft the characters as complete, complex individuals with their own motivations, they are all strong female characters.
Sorry I could go on and on about Buffy for weeks. The end of the series, when Willow works her spell and all the girls around the world stand up -- I still can't watch that scene without crying!
Also add Buffy (obviously), Lilith's Brood, Contact (book not movie, movie sucked), not sci-fi/fantasy, but Criminal Minds.
Criminal Minds is a super feminist show, and an especially interesting one, because it often depicts violence against women. It has to, because that's the reality of the world we live in and what the characters would realistically be investigating. They've done a great job of making it a major theme and expressly addressing it, as well as keeping the burden of fault with society and perpetrators, and not with the victims. Most shows just have it as the norm without ever examining why that's a problem, and that's where you start to get into entertainment that contributes to rape culture. I haven't watched it in a couple years, but J.J., Garcia, and Prentiss are all very strong female characters.
I think it's also worth remembering that "strong female character" doesn't mean she has to be any of the following:
- physically strong
- emotionally strong
- smart
- successful
- a good role model
It is great to have all those characteristics represented in women in movies and on TV, but having a strong female character simply means that the character herself is realized: she doesn't depend solely on either other characters (especially male characters) or tropes to define her. Strong female characters can be weak, fucked-up messes, if they depict realistic women whose characters have some internal definition and, here's the key word again, agency, not just external definition.
Buffy is a great example of this, because it has so many female characters who are all different kinds of women, and they're all strong. I know one episode that a lot of people criticize is the one where Buffy goes to college and has a one night stand. She thinks the guy really likes her but he was just using her, and it completely wrecks her. I've read/heard criticisms that this was not a good depiction of a strong female character. But the thing is, she was 18 -- sometimes young girls get played by older guys they think like them and it's devastating. Buffy was on a pretty typical course of emotional development for a girl her age, it was a normal reaction to a realistic situation that a girl like Buffy would have had pretty good odds of experiencing -- one I'm sure a lot of girls in the audience could identify with. And that's one of the things that I think is really important -- when we see that our heroes have flaws, especially flaws we can relate to, it can make us feel better about having those flaws ourselves.
The show also has Faith: fucked up, emotional wreck, uses sex to get what she wants, Anya: so desperate to get married, Tara: vulnerable and soft and easily manipulated, Willow: so much going on with her. The thing is, all these characters have traits, even traits that are large parts of their personalities, that are, well, negative. Traits that are often negative stereotypes of women. But because the time was taken to craft the characters as complete, complex individuals with their own motivations, they are all strong female characters.
Sorry I could go on and on about Buffy for weeks. The end of the series, when Willow works her spell and all the girls around the world stand up -- I still can't watch that scene without crying!
I like the look on Baseball Girl's face when the spell hits her.
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