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Scifi with aggressive sexuality

LOL!! Oh, Fifty Shades!

Stardream, I agree. I skimmed a few pages in the bookstore and I couldn't believe that anything that poorly written had been published. I was not about to reward bad writing with good money.

Grendelsbayne also has a point. Hubby and I had some friends over for dinner and one of our female friends grabbed her library copy of the book from her bag and laughed at how bad it was. She read a few passages out loud, which had us all in stitches. Her husband said exactly what Grendelsbayne posted, that is, "well, I guess this tripe gives the repressed conservative set permission to be (insert air quotes here) daring."

Yeah. Nothing at all to do with feminism and everything to do with bad writing and tame "naughtiness".
 
LOL!! Oh, Fifty Shades!

I skimmed a few pages in the bookstore and I couldn't believe that anything that poorly written had been published.

Were you living under a rock when the novels Eragon, Eldest, and Brisingr got published?

They're not only poorly written, they're blatantly plagiarized, and yet Christopher Paolini not only somehow got them published, he (and his parents) actually made money off of them.
 
Fifty Shades of Gray, which was the female equivalent of those pulp sex novels of the 50s-- it was hugely successful among liberated women, but caused fits among the more conservative.

And as I recall it also caused fits among the actual BDSM community, most of whom condemned the book due to the fact that it gets pretty much everything wrong.

I actually had an argument with someone at work about that. They thought Christian was some kind of dashing, romantic adventurer, when in fact he is just an abusive, stalking, rapist piece of whale shit who doesn't know a damn thing about how BDSM actually works.

Although what do you expect from something which was originally written as cheap Twilight fanfic? (Yes, really. Bella = Anastasia; Edward = Christian. You can look it up.)
 
The Cliche is "Men trade intimacy for sex and women trade sex for intimacy," which is another way that religion has de-sexualized women. Mommies are supposed to teach their little girls to just close their eyes and make up their shopping list until it's over. For contemporary conservatives, both on the Right and Left, the message is that sexuality is for fourteen-year-old boys and women are supposed to roll their eyes at this immature behavior and then everybody agrees that the priests and nuns were right after all. Which is certainly not consistent with the women that I've known.

Oddly enough, while there has been a lot of concern about "slut-shaming," it seems like very few people notice the reverse attitude-- society, particularly modern feminists, shaming men for having and/or expressing sexual urges.

[...] the sad fact that if male nudity is shown it is often someone a woman wouldn't want to see naked (yes, I'm glaring at you Game of Thrones!) it results in me completely tuning out a scene that is supposed to be sexy.

Similarly, while there has been a lot of concern in recent decades about women with body image issues, little attention has been paid to men with body image issues or other issues related to poor sexual self-esteem.

As I said before, beauty needs no excuse. The Venus de Milo and Michelangelo's David exist only to be naked. Ars gratia artis.

Very true! Granted, in something more complex like a fiction narrative, there are times when said beauty distracts from the larger point of the piece. But again, this is an artistic decision to be debated on its own artistic merits. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes the sex is the point.

As far as I can see most feminists are for sexuality and it being expressed as long as it is inclusive. The problem with a lot of sex in the media isn't that it exists it's that it is done badly. [...] Very little done for the female gaze, even completely ignoring female audiences.

So... what are we talking about for a remedy here? It seems like there are 2 contradictory arguments being made here; either that the sex currently portrayed in media is largely wrong and should therefore be limited OR that there should be more sex depicted from a female-directed perspective to bring better marketplace parity.

Take for example the book Fifty Shades of Gray, which was the female equivalent of those pulp sex novels of the 50s-- it was hugely successful among liberated women, but caused fits among the more conservative.

The 50 Shades franchise has come under a lot of criticism from a lot of different directions. Some simply criticize it for bad writing. Some condemn Christian Grey as a rapist. Some sexual liberals have criticized it for being TOO conservative. The book suggests that the only reason why he's into BDSM is because he was sexually abused as a teenager. Furthermore, the trilogy ends with a rather vanilla, monogamous conclusion with the two of them getting married & having a baby. (Disclaimer: I haven't read any of the books or seen the movie. Most of my information comes from the Phoenix New Times review of the movie, which can be seen here: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/movies/fifty-shades-of-grey-6719976 .)

It has long been my observation that sexuality has been presented from the male perspective of what is sexy, with little to no consideration of what a woman may find appealing. Hubby often looks at me and grins during a sex scene, saying, "so, are you turned on yet?" to which my response is usually "Oh, is that the goal of this scene...I thought it was to put me to sleep".

That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the sexuality that you're seeing. It seems to work for its intended audience. It just means that an alternative needs to be provided that better suits your interests.

As the saying goes, "The best response to a movie is to make another movie."

(BTW, who said that originally? I seem to recall reading it with regards to Shane Black, who said that Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was intended to make amends for Last Action Hero. But I got the sense that he was quoting someone else, like Hitchcock or Orson Welles or William Goldman. I tried to search for it on Google but I think I'm slightly misphrasing it because I can't find the exact line attributed to anyone. Does anyone here have an idea?)

Were you living under a rock when the novels Eragon, Eldest, and Brisingr got published?

What about the 4th one, Inheritance? Was that any better?
 
Oddly enough, while there has been a lot of concern about "slut-shaming," it seems like very few people notice the reverse attitude-- society, particularly modern feminists, shaming men for having and/or expressing sexual urges.

I haven't noticed anyone doing that. The concern is more about fiction that caters exclusively to male sexual urges in a way that marginalizes female viewers or makes them uncomfortable. If men use sex to dominate, exploit, or demean women, that is something they absolutely should be shamed for, because shame is part of how society establishes what behaviors are acceptable and unacceptable. The problem is that far too many works that cater to male desire are catering to that sophomoric and exploitative facet of male desire, which ruins it for everyone else, men and women alike.

I read a comment once from a feminist author explaining why the "Not All Men" response -- i.e. reacting to a complaint about rape culture or abusive/demeaning male attitudes by pointing out that not all men are like that -- is not constructive. First off, women already know that not all men are like that. Their goal is to call attention to those men who are like that and whose behavior needs to be addressed and recognized as wrong by everyone, men included. The reason they don't go out of their way to restate that not all men are like that is that it shouldn't need to be said -- and it's not what the conversation is about. It's changing the subject, responding to women expressing their concerns by trying to steal the spotlight and make it about how men feel. And that's selfish. That's no way to be an ally to anyone. If you're out driving and you see someone lying in the road, and you stop to help and they tell you they were hit by a car, you don't immediately protest that you weren't the one who hit them. Instead, you see what you can do to help them. Because the immediate problem that needs to be addressed is not about you.


So... what are we talking about for a remedy here? It seems like there are 2 contradictory arguments being made here; either that the sex currently portrayed in media is largely wrong and should therefore be limited OR that there should be more sex depicted from a female-directed perspective to bring better marketplace parity.

Who's saying it should be limited? I'm sure not. I'm saying that creators could stand to do a better job with it, not that they should do less of it. If you want to turn your audience on, fine, but do it in a way that works for the characters and the context instead of just tacking an inappropriately voyeuristic moment onto an otherwise non-sexual story.

Also, you're drawing a false dichotomy. Sexual content can be directed at both male and female audiences at the same time. It's possible to arouse men in a way that also arouses women, or at least that doesn't alienate them or make them feel demeaned. Sex isn't intrinsically about men vs. women. It evolved as something men and women (or men and men, or women and women) did together for their mutual benefit. The adversarial attitude is the problem.
 
Who's saying it should be limited? I'm sure not. I'm saying that creators could stand to do a better job with it, not that they should do less of it. If you want to turn your audience on, fine, but do it in a way that works for the characters and the context instead of just tacking an inappropriately voyeuristic moment onto an otherwise non-sexual story.

Again, these are artistic judgments, not moral ones. It's subjective, determining whether a moment is "inappropriately voyeuristic" or that a story is "non-sexual." (After all, I've been told many times that I can't make any definitive judgments about what is or isn't an appropriate Superman story. If Superman is subjective, so is sex.)

Sexual content can be directed at both male and female audiences at the same time. It's possible to arouse men in a way that also arouses women, or at least that doesn't alienate them or make them feel demeaned.

True. But at the same time, sexual content that only arouses one group of people but not another isn't any less valid. And people can't be "demeaned" by something that doesn't involve them.
 
Again, these are artistic judgments, not moral ones. It's subjective, determining whether a moment is "inappropriately voyeuristic" or that a story is "non-sexual."

No, it's not subjective. There are some very clear objective examples. For instance, female comic-book or video-game characters who are dressed in bikini- or lingerie-like costumes when going into battle. Combat is not intrinsically a sexual activity, at least not from the perspective of a person engaging in it and trying to stay alive, so there is no logical reason why a woman would choose to dress for combat in a way that would show off her body rather than protecting it -- especially given that every male character around her is sure to be loaded down with tons of body armor. That's imposing sexual titillation on a scene where it serves no story purpose. It's inappropriate to the context of the scene because it contradicts the logic of the scene and puts more weight on male gaze than character agency. But if the same female character is depicted in a scene where she's alone with her lover, or going to the beach to show off the results of her hard work in the gym, then it makes perfect sense for her to dress in an ultra-skimpy outfit that shows off her body. That's a situation where the focus on her sexuality is appropriate in context, where it's plausible that she would choose to dress that way.


True. But at the same time, sexual content that only arouses one group of people but not another isn't any less valid. And people can't be "demeaned" by something that doesn't involve them.

Again, context matters. If it's a work of erotica that specifies its subject matter and target audience and that people can choose whether or not to expose themselves to, then it's free to indulge any crazy fetish or narrow taste. But if it's a work for a general audience that includes both men and women, then throwing in a sudden, unexpected scene of sexual objectification or assault can be upsetting to a large segment of the audience.

After all, we're not just talking about people disliking something or being offended by it. The horrific reality is that a large percentage of women have been raped or sexually abused at some point in their lives, and reminders of that experience -- triggers -- can prompt anxiety attacks, flashbacks, or other PTSD responses. It's not just about being prudish or offended, it's about being forced to relive a life-altering trauma. Even women who haven't been raped have still experienced being harrassed, objectified, diminished, marginalized, etc. throughout their lives. It's not unreasonable for them to want their entertainment to be a safe space that doesn't shove all that in their faces all over again, and it's not unreasonable for those of us who create entertainment to be sensitive to their concerns.
 
Meanwhile, while I'm sure plenty of churchfolk called it satanic or whatever, almost every comment I've ever seen against it was made by people who actually enjoy sex and good writing and even both of those two things put together, but were completely baffled by the fact that this was the book that somehow got crowned as 'great erotica' when it wasn't even remotely close to that.
Thus the comparison to pulp fiction. But the relative merits of the book are irrelevant, but rather its immense popularity and subsequent effect on publishing (i.e. the revitalization of female-centric erotica). The bottom line is that women are not the sexless creatures that conservatives would like to believe.

And as I recall it also caused fits among the actual BDSM community, most of whom condemned the book due to the fact that it gets pretty much everything wrong.
So I've heard. Also that there was a huge increase in ER visits due to BDSM gone wrong. Kinky candidates for the Darwin Awards, I suppose.

Oddly enough, while there has been a lot of concern about "slut-shaming," it seems like very few people notice the reverse attitude-- society, particularly modern feminists, shaming men for having and/or expressing sexual urges.
What do you call a woman who likes a lot of sex? Her name. What do you call a man who likes a lot of sex? A misogynist. :rommie:

Very true! Granted, in something more complex like a fiction narrative, there are times when said beauty distracts from the larger point of the piece. But again, this is an artistic decision to be debated on its own artistic merits. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes the sex is the point.
Exactly. But people continue the religious tradition of treating sexuality with a separate set of values, inconsistent with all other human interactions.

So... what are we talking about for a remedy here? It seems like there are 2 contradictory arguments being made here; either that the sex currently portrayed in media is largely wrong and should therefore be limited OR that there should be more sex depicted from a female-directed perspective to bring better marketplace parity.
The latter, of course, although people exaggerate the difference between what appeals to men and women sexually, just like they exaggerate all other so-called gender differences.

Hey, how about some filk?

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No, it's not subjective. There are some very clear objective examples. For instance, female comic-book or video-game characters who are dressed in bikini- or lingerie-like costumes when going into battle. Combat is not intrinsically a sexual activity, at least not from the perspective of a person engaging in it and trying to stay alive, so there is no logical reason why a woman would choose to dress for combat in a way that would show off her body rather than protecting it -- especially given that every male character around her is sure to be loaded down with tons of body armor. That's imposing sexual titillation on a scene where it serves no story purpose. It's inappropriate to the context of the scene because it contradicts the logic of the scene and puts more weight on male gaze than character agency.

Who says fiction needs to make objective, logical sense? The action genre in particular is full of ridiculous tropes that have no basis in reality. Cool guys don't look at explosions. The bad guys can never hit the good guys no matter how many bullets are flying while the good guys will hit the bad guys every time. No one ever dies of blunt force trauma (unless an entire building falls on them or something like that). That which doesn't kill you will have no lasting effects whatsoever. Every building, space ship, & submarine has air vents large enough for a person to crawl through. Spider-Man must always have his mask torn off in the final battle. (Granted, that last one is really only limited to the Sam Raimi movies.)

These are standard conventions of a genre that is inherently escapist in nature. It's not always about what's plausible. Sometimes, it's just about what looks good. (And no one ever seems to complain when Conan the Barbarian or the Scorpion King charges off into battle oiled & shirtless.)

Granted, sometimes an action scene can be so cliche-ridden and implausible that it's distracting. But, as I keep saying, that's a subjective, artistic judgment. Your mileage my vary.

BTW, with all of the talk here about the "male gaze," what about the woefully underrepresented female gaze? What does that look like? Are there any ready examples of it?

Again, context matters. If it's a work of erotica that specifies its subject matter and target audience and that people can choose whether or not to expose themselves to, then it's free to indulge any crazy fetish or narrow taste. But if it's a work for a general audience that includes both men and women, then throwing in a sudden, unexpected scene of sexual objectification or assault can be upsetting to a large segment of the audience.

What determines whether a work is for a "general audience" or not? Shouldn't the audience for a work of art be determined by its content, not the other way around? (I realize that's somewhat naive considering how most modern media is driven by corporate profits, but I'm an idealist.)

Even women who haven't been raped have still experienced being harassed, objectified, diminished, marginalized, etc. throughout their lives.

I think nearly everyone has been marginalized at some time in their life. For the vast majority of us, society doesn't really care whether we live or die. But, for some reason, a lot of women & minorities seem to think that there's some specific reason that they've been marginalized, not that it just kinda happens to everyone.

It's not unreasonable for them to want their entertainment to be a safe space that doesn't shove all that in their faces all over again, and it's not unreasonable for those of us who create entertainment to be sensitive to their concerns.

You can be as sensitive as you want in the entertainment that you create & consume. Just don't condemn those with different tastes & wants.
 
Who says fiction needs to make objective, logical sense?

That is not even remotely what this is about. It's about whether a work of fiction makes a segment of its audience feel uncomfortable or demeaned, or even reminded of a traumatic event from their past. A work of fiction that treats its female characters as sexual objects while not doing the same for its male characters, or a work of fiction that portrays Asians stereotypically as martial artists or math geeks and nothing more, or a work of fiction that features a gay villain who's "cured" when a sexy enough woman comes along, has problems that go far deeper than factual accuracy. Fiction is supposed to be entertaining. It's not too much to ask that a work of entertainment feel like a safe and comfortable place. No, not all fiction should be about comfortable subjects, but it's one thing to make a reader uncomfortable about a challenging subject the story is actually confronting, and it's an entirely different thing to make a reader uncomfortable because of a randomly demeaning portrayal of their group that's gratuitously tossed into a story that has nothing to do with it.


These are standard conventions of a genre that is inherently escapist in nature.

Escapism is exactly the point. Female readers deserve escapism too. They deserve a story that lets them escape from the constant sexual objectification and harassment and marginalization and contempt for their feelings and opinions that they face in so many walks of life. The problem is that today's SF and comics audience is as heavily female as male, and yet many creators still default to the mistaken assumption that their entire audience is male. And so a lot of women who want to enjoy something they love and are excited by often find themselves randomly slapped in the face by depictions that humiliate them and make them feel unwelcome. And often it's in the context of a story where it serves no purpose whatsoever, like the gratuitously skimpy outfits and porn-star poses of female comics or gaming characters in non-sexual story situations.


BTW, with all of the talk here about the "male gaze," what about the woefully underrepresented female gaze? What does that look like? Are there any ready examples of it?

There's the scene in Thor where Jane and Darcy are rather openly admiring the shirtless Thor as he cleans himself up and the camera lingers lovingly on his torso. There is some of it out there, but there's still a lot of the other stuff.


What determines whether a work is for a "general audience" or not? Shouldn't the audience for a work of art be determined by its content, not the other way around?

But there are different elements of content. Women like adventure stories and superheroes and video games just as much as men. There's nothing in those stories that requires the female characters to be half-naked or objectified; that's a gratuitous element that would change nothing if it were excluded. So most of the content is appealing to men and women alike, but this one unnecessary part is off-putting to women because it's assumed, falsely, that the entire audience is male.

And you can't always anticipate what your audience will be. Sometimes it's not who you expect. Look at RoboCop. The original film was intensely R-rated, but kids loved the character. When I went to see RoboCop 2 in the theater, a couple of parents brought their children in to watch this film that was utterly unsuited for them, even though the film was clearly marked as R-rated. But the later TV series couldn't be restricted even that much, and the producers knew there would be a lot of kids watching, so they made the show less violent and more child-friendly. Which was really the only responsible choice to make.

Also, I don't think the makers of Xena realized just how strongly the show would resonate with lesbian fans. Once that became clear, they began writing more toward that audience. It's just smart to recognize that your actual audience isn't necessarily what you expected.


I think nearly everyone has been marginalized at some time in their life. For the vast majority of us, society doesn't really care whether we live or die. But, for some reason, a lot of women & minorities seem to think that there's some specific reason that they've been marginalized, not that it just kinda happens to everyone.

Oh, good grief. Have you ever even read a history book, or seen a news headline?

Look, I grew up as a bullied child. I was ostracized and excluded and demeaned all the time. But I would never be so obnoxiously self-absorbed as to think that what I went through was a fraction as much as what women or ethnic minorities or LGBTQ people have to endure on a daily basis. At least I can walk down the street by myself and feel reasonably safe, which is more than a woman or a black person in America could say. Don't assume it doesn't exist just because you don't understand it. "I don't understand" is a reason to start listening, not to stop listening. Until you learn enough that you can understand, you simply aren't qualified to judge.
 
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At least I can walk down the street by myself and feel reasonably safe, which is more than a woman or a black person in America could say.

Actually, statistically, men are slightly more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the percentage of men vs. women that were the victim of a violent crime in 2014 was 50.8% male & 49.2% female. This is actually more even than usual. In 2005 it was 58.9% male victims.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv14.pdf (Check page 6.)
 
Digressing into statistics is meaningless. This is just one of the excuses that the true believers use to justify censorship. As I said, God has told us that that there are different rules for sexuality, rules that contradict common sense and all other social interactions. No one in their right mind would suggest that we censor depictions of house fires or automobile accidents to prevent "triggering" people who have been traumatized by these events, but we must protect those poor delicate women from depictions of sexuality. It makes condescension sound so noble.

The only accurate thing that's been said is that there is a deficit of beauty and sexuality that appeal to women and Gay men, but that's also secondary to the point of this thread-- which is the fact that we live in a religious society that wants us to believe that beauty and sexuality are dirty and lowbrow, and their use in the arts only panders to adolescents and perverts.
 
No one in their right mind would suggest that we censor depictions of house fires or automobile accidents to prevent "triggering" people who have been traumatized by these events, but we must protect those poor delicate women from depictions of sexuality. It makes condescension sound so noble.

Trigger warnings are not censorship any more than ratings or those warnings before TV shows that 'the following program contains' yada yada. Also, I've been in multiple automobile accidents, incidentally, and while I've never been raped, I am reasonably sure my experiences were nowhere near as traumatic as being raped. Jesus, I cannot seriously believe anyone would compare them.
 
I've been in a large auditorium hit by a tornado. I thought the roof was going to come down on top of me and everyone else and that would be it. To this day I cannot sit in the middle of a large crowd...I'm on the edge of things...near the exit. For a long time just hearing the wind blow would trigger panic.I still get a jolt of fear whenever there is a tornado warning and I live in a place where they rarely get stronger than an F-1.
I would rather experience that ten times over than have to have to endure rape. Does that make me 'delicate'? I have no idea and don't care...and neither should anyone else.
 
Thank you YLu and stardream. It never ceases to amaze me when people refuse to acknowledge that there are different levels of trauma, and these elicit different responses. That anyone demeans it as protecting a delicate flower is incomprehensible to me.
 
The concern is more about fiction that caters exclusively to male sexual urges in a way that marginalizes female viewers or makes them uncomfortable.

Overt sexual display marginalizes female viewers and makes them uncomfortable?

This is a slightly different medium, but have you seen the latest Fergie video?

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29 million hits and counting, and it's hard to really interpret the lyrics as anything more profound than a Penthouse Forum story with a bump and grind rhythm attached.

This is a female performer, purportedly free to do what she wishes, and she has chosen to pander to male sexual urges in the most primitive way. And I would doubt, if you pushed her against the wall, she'd do anything but strike the same sort of "this is grrrl-power liberation" vibe that Miley Cyrus and Beyonce and others do.

How is this any more evolved than the stereotypical 14-year-old boy viewpoint that you said you didn't like? Where, exactly, is this enlightened fairer-sex representation of mature male-female relationships supposedly coming from in current pop culture?

Instead I think there is an across the board race to the bottom of both sexes viewing the other as little besides short-term transactional sexual gratification. You know, Amy Schumer feeling proud she can "catch a d***" anytime she wants, despite being plus-sized. This is the Tinder era, and both genders share responsibility for ushering it in.
 
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