A
Amaris
Guest
I have no idea what I'm reading, but by the blue hells, I will spend all day reading it until I figure it out.
Science - What is it? Can it be trusted?
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I have no idea what I'm reading, but by the blue hells, I will spend all day reading it until I figure it out.
I think the professor is going to notice those crib notes.
Hey, I actually recognize one of them! (An equation, not a woman.) F=ma. Force equals mass times acceleration. My high school physics teacher would be so proud.
I have no idea what I'm reading, but by the blue hells, I will spend all day reading it until I figure it out.
Maxwell's equations, Schrodinger's equation, a Feynman diagram, the Standard Model of particle physics (SU(3) X SU(2) X U(1)) and a Lorentz boost matrix among others.
A
Amaris
Guest
I have no idea what I'm reading, but by the blue hells, I will spend all day reading it until I figure it out.
Maxwell's equations, Schrodinger's equation, a Feynman diagram, the Standard Model of particle physics (SU(3) X SU(2) X U(1)) and a Lorentz boost matrix among others.
I'm going to work that terminology into this dirty movie script I'm writing.
It is funny that atheists can be considered a group at all (other than being the complement of the group of people who have beliefs in a deity or deities). Lack of believing in something seems like an odd point of unification of people.
For example, I don't believe in ghosts. And yet I know of no group classification of such people with a similar absence of this belief. I have never felt any need to find other non-believers of ghosts and... I don't know, commune and compare our non-beliefs?
Those who have belief... those who have faith, I don't understand why they are so troubled by the existence of those who don't. If you believers honestly believe that you know something that the rest of us don't, why feel threatened? For that matter, why do so many believers feel threatened by other believers who believe differently?
I am an atheist in that I lack a belief in a deity or deities. There is no more malice or ill will in my lack of belief than there is in the similar lack of belief of every new born child.
Further, belief is not (in my opinion) voluntary.
Lets try an experiment in voluntary belief... were ever you are at (everyone reading this), turn from your computer and look at an open section of floor. Now, believe that someone is standing there. Don't imagine it, believe it.
I, for one, can't successfully do this... I can not will myself into believing something I don't. Similarly, I, for one, can't successfully stop believing things that I do believe.
Maybe faith... real faith, is a gift. I've seen real faith in others, and I've seen it's benefits in their lives. But it is a gift I don't have (at least not in a deity or deities, I have faith in other things).
And yet there are those who claim to have this gift that feel threaten by those who lack it. This is one of those reactions I doubt I'll ever understand.
But there is nothing arrogant in one's beliefs (or lack there of), because (as I pointed out) there is often very little about them that is truly voluntary. In fact the only truly voluntary aspect of beliefs (in my opinion) is a willingness to share and discuss them.
^ My beliefs are voluntary. Nobody made me have them. 
Or, if you prefer to look at it this way: I got older, I was exposed to alternative beliefs, and yet I made the personal choice to continue with those that I already had. Given this, I don't see how there was coercion anywhere along the line.
Or, if you prefer to look at it this way: I got older, I was exposed to alternative beliefs, and yet I made the personal choice to continue with those that I already had. Given this, I don't see how there was coercion anywhere along the line.
Well, then try an experiment... pick something you truly believe in and stop believing in it.^ My beliefs are voluntary. Nobody made me have them.
^ Okay, now you lost me. 
Okay... lets be specific. I'm sure you believe yourself to be male... can you believe yourself to be female?
That is, truly believe that you are female... not pretend, not imagine, but believe it.
If belief is voluntary, this shouldn't be a problem.
This is the problem I think a lot of people have when they see others who believe differently. I've met a lot of Christians who believe that atheists could just start believing if they wanted to. If you really believe (or don't believe) something, it isn't something you can voluntarily change.
And...
That is, truly believe that you are female... not pretend, not imagine, but believe it.
If belief is voluntary, this shouldn't be a problem.
This is the problem I think a lot of people have when they see others who believe differently. I've met a lot of Christians who believe that atheists could just start believing if they wanted to. If you really believe (or don't believe) something, it isn't something you can voluntarily change.
And...
How are you reading coercion into anything I said?
I disagree Shaw. You can make yourself believe anything you want if you put in the hard yards. Beliefs can be changed. It won't happen overnight, but if you keep telling yourself that two and two make five, eventually that is what they will make. If you have other people around you believing the same thing, it makes it easier.
'Fake it till you make it'
So you don't really believe? You're actually faking it?
I have to wonder, if there really is a god... wouldn't lying about believing be worse than being honest about not?
It's pretty much my philosophy of life.
On an individual level, many are just insecure; when you're relying on "faith," that means, by definition, that you have nothing to back yourself up. But the real problem is organized religion. Organized religions want their rules to be imposed on everybody, preferably through legislation; non-believers (and in some cases other religions) represent political opposition.
So you don't really believe? You're actually faking it?
I have to wonder, if there really is a god... wouldn't lying about believing be worse than being honest about not?
Me personally? I never said anything about God. I believe that beliefs in general are learned behaviours which (I think) have moved into the subconscious through years of repetition and reuse.
Yes I do believe in 'fake it till you make it'. If you wanna be a champ, act like you are one. Look at Mohammed Ali. 'I am the greatest'
We are discussing beliefs beyond, for example, one's own abilities.So you don't really believe? You're actually faking it?
I have to wonder, if there really is a god... wouldn't lying about believing be worse than being honest about not?
Me personally? I never said anything about God. I believe that beliefs in general are learned behaviours which (I think) have moved into the subconscious through years of repetition and reuse.
Yes I do believe in 'fake it till you make it'. If you wanna be a champ, act like you are one. Look at Mohammed Ali. 'I am the greatest'
Belief in one's self is a far cry from the belief that two and two make five. As far as I can tell, believing two and two make five isn't a form of self-improvement. In fact, I think that endeavoring to make one's self believe that two and two make five might fall more into the category of self-delusion.
Similarly, one who believes in god faking that they don't (or someone who doesn't believe faking that they do) seems more like the actions of someone trying to hide their true beliefs from others. I've seen many people who claim belief, but in actions don't seem to really believe. They believe when it is convenient... or socially expedient.
But considering that we are discussing honest beliefs rather than self-delusions (or social concealment), why don't we avoid mixing in your self-improvement ideas... at least in this thread. For the basis of the discussion here, everyone involved truly believes what they believe.
And I truly hope that you are not faking your (religious) beliefs for convenience or expedience, or that you arrived at them through years of repetition. I'd like to believe that your faith is a gift rather than a rote byproduct.
Shaw, I don't think most people approach beliefs as logically as you do. I think for many people, beliefs are emotionally motivated things. People may feel unsure or uncomfortable with the world around them, and faith is a coping mechanism. It is a commitment to a system of interpreting the world. People trust that interpretation.
Belief is rather like trust. It's something one chooses and makes an emotionally investment in.
And yes it can become rote, and people's trust can become blind and dogged.
Belief is rather like trust. It's something one chooses and makes an emotionally investment in.
And yes it can become rote, and people's trust can become blind and dogged.
Okay... so what you are saying is that most people's religious beliefs are more like my belief that my wife loves me, rather than my belief that my wife exists.
I don't know if I've ever thought about it in that way before... I think I need more time to take that into consideration. Though it better explains the inspiration that I've seen in people based on their faith.
Exactly. Beliefs can be deliberately changed. In fact, to combat things like low self esteem, poor self image and things like that in people suffering from depression or abuse, the treatment is often a long slow process of changing ones BELIEFS about her/himself. Beautiful people raised in bad environments really do BELIEVE they are worthless, when of course they are not. Battered women often BELIEVE they couldn't do any better, no one else would love them, and that's one of the reasons many continue to go back to an abusive partner.
To help them, they have to go through the long slow process of changing those faulty beliefs.
Change of belief can come through epiphany and it can come through a long, slow deliberate process.
Now, I do agree on this point:
I often find it amazing how christians think atheists could just start believing all the sudden. Every time a christian tells me that, I say, Okay, could you STOP believing at the snap of a finger? Of course not, they say. But that's different! How, haven't heard yet.
You are using subjective words like 'improvement' and 'delusion' here where they don't belong. I guess you could get away with calling it delusion. It is almost universally accepted that two and two make four. The social pressure to conform and not question this fact is overwhelming.
But we are talking about whether it is possible to make a person believe in something they know is not true, not whether it would be wise to do so.
Most humans are born with a curse over their heads which causes them to accept the opinions of the masses. An experiment conducted by a group of psychs once neatly demonstrated this. People were placed into groups of ten but the subjects were unaware that the majority of the people in the group were plants placed there by the psychs. I don't remember the specifics but they had to solve some sort of simple numerical problem. The plants in the group were instructed to 'believe' that the answer was something incorrect. Like 2 and 2 making 5.
They found that only one in ten people had the courage / conviction / belief to give the right answer when the rest of the group seemed so convinced that the wrong answer was right. The rest of them rationalised their behaviour; they 'thought they were doing the maths wrong' for instance.
1 in 10!
The pressure to conform is enourmous. Yet it doesn't exist anywhere except in people's own minds. It must be hell living a life like that.
What does this have to do with my point? Go to a church, immerse yourself with true believers, have a real crack at it, and your beliefs too will change.
(I know you are going to ask for a link or something to this experiment so I'll try and dig one up. It's been several years since I heard of it though)
Most of this talk about changing belief systems and the like is beyond the scope of everyday Joes who struggle to lift their minds (for want of a better word) above the levels of the Neanderthals. For most people existance is the reptilian mind dictating the terms of engagement and the cerebral cortex coming up with excuses for its behaviour.
People will do things and then use whatever excuse is convenient to explain these things.
I speed - I have a problem with authority.
You fear religion - it doesn't make logical sense
He wants to impose his will on others - their behaviour violates his code of ethics
It is human nature to act like a pig and then offer excuses. That isn't belief. (makes me wonder whether belief itself is as real as I thought though)
You are trying to deploy trickery here. If I agree to only consider what you call 'honest beliefs', which by definition can't be changed, then your point is automatically proven. An atheist can't just 'believe' even if they wanted to. I contend that they can.
I never said I held religeous beliefs? Since you asked though, quantum mechanics has taught me that without me to observe it, none of this universe would exist. I AM GOD! Kneel before me in terror. I will be a cruel God.
I thought this would be a good place to post the new 'Symphony of Science'. Enjoy.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PT90dAA49Q[/yt]
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PT90dAA49Q[/yt]
