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Science fiction pet hate

Christopher wrote:
Silvercrest wrote:
Is it even possible to release a novelization of a movie, when the movie is (inaccurately) based on an existing book? I suppose that would be bad marketing. Advertising their movie's flaws and so on.
It's been done. The film Enemy Mine, based on a novella of that name by Barry B. Longyear, had a book-length novelization credited to Longyear and David Gerrold.

And no, it's not bad marketing. The audience for a book, whether a novelization or a reissue of the original on which a film was based, is minuscule compared to the audience for a feature film. So if readers of the book are dissatisfied with the film, that isn't going to have any significant negative impact on the box office returns for the film. Conversely, since a movie's audience is so much huger than a book's audience, the small percentage of the film's audience that seeks out the book will hugely increase the book's sales, even if the film is a flop at the box office. So a film tie-in is always going to be good marketing for the book, no matter how bad the film is.

Sounds like that's going to be true whether it's a re-issue or a new novelization. Which suggests that the only reason we don't see more "re-novelizations" is just inertia. It's easier to re-release a book that already exists, and so on.
 
I think it's fairly safe to say FTL travel is impossible. Nobody is ever going to prove me wrong. None of you are, for sure.

Neither will you ever be able to prove you are right, Deckerd; not by using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, in any case.

Oh I can prove that, using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, FTL travel is impossible.

Really?
Well, then, by all means, go ahead and prove it - let's see your demonstration, Deckerd.
 
Don't need to demonstrate. If FTL travel were possible then someone would have proved it. Ergo it's not possible. This isn't rocket surgery, you know.

It's like saying it's impossible for humans to levitate. How do we know this? We know this because over time many many laboratories have tried to prove that humans can levitate and not one of them has ever proved it. Therefore we can say that levitation in humans is an impossibility.
 
Bob Park
The idea that cell phones and microwaves generally might cause cancer can only be held by defying physics and misinterpreting statistics and ignoring every reasonable definition of risk. It is nothing but pandering to the most ignorant fear of "radiation" imaginable. As a teacher, which Bob Park was, the question is why shouldn't he be outraged by such egregious folly? Similarly, antimissile defense borders on open fraud (if not decisively indictable,) and people should be outraged.

All the science known til now can be proven wrong?

The saying that "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio," was casually tossed aside to justify listening to a ghost. This whole attitude (one cannot honestly call it an idea,) persists as a loophole to let magic back into the world. FTL? Why quit there? Why not forthrightly hope the new version of QM proves the existence of God, and shows how really sincere prayer can carry us to Arcturus, or at least Mars?

Scientists are willing to tolerate speculations of multiple universes, unseen dimensions, reality as a hologram and other mind boggling notions. The implicit claim that stodginess or lack of imagination have any role in rejecting the concept that just anything might turn out to be true is nonsense. On closer inspection, it is the opposite, the supposed openmindedness to wholesale dismissal of science that covers the return of the old "ideas" dressed up. The notion that manipulating the state vector can change reality is very like thinking that changing the (Aristotelian) essence will change the accidents, for instance.

Historically, the idea that new ideas in science will radically change the previous conception relies primarily on two examples, the Copernican revolution and the theory of General Relativity. For the first, it was only people's desire to imagine that there could be things that couldn't be explained, that didn't follow the laws of nature as revealed in experience and experiment, that mere science just predicted results but didn't and couldn't grasp multifarious reality, truth, that permitted people to babble about spheres in the sky in the first place. There was no material like that, there was no hint about what or who was cranking this contraption. The whole thing relied upon the airy assumption that just about anything might be explained, someday.

For the second, General Relativity's refutation of Newton's system of the world is highly exaggerated. The famous laws of motion (some of which were taken from previous work, anyhow) are left untouched. Despite Newton's efforts not to venture metaphysical constructs to "explain" the lawfulness of gravitation and motion, one, absolute time, has indeed bit the dust. Refutation of metaphysical assumptions is in one sense the business of science, so I don't see how this example shows science is disposable like Kleenex.

General Relativity devised simpler assumptions based on experimental evidence and internal coherence. If one protests there are still metaphysical assumptions in science, one, the assumption there is an objective world existing outside the consciousness, is never going to be dropped. As far as our understanding of nature is concerned, GR specified when it would give different results from Newtonian gravitation, and it gave a theory that gave the same results as Newtonian gravitation in appropriate conditions. Any new revolutions ins understanding of physics will follow this pattern. Insufficiently understood, unjustified or downright false assumptions may fall. But the new theory will explicitly explain when it applies to new phenomena and it will produce the same results found in previous experience and experiments.

In the case of FTL, previous results include special relativity, which right there rules out practically every mode of star travel. Previous results include Einstein's most famous equation, which means that space warping must involve extraordinary amounts of matter, possibly more than could be obtained within a single solar system, in that case again ruling out every such mode of star travel.

(In other sciences, like biology and history, scientific revolutions are bedeviled by counterrevolutions undertaken for reactionary ends. Thus, the repeated revival of race in biology, usually in disguised form. In history, biased sampling produces so-called facts that aren't. So and so forth. Science is a human enterprise, not a disembodied search for truth and these difficulties can be escaped. They must be conquered.)

The answer to the rhetorical question in the heading is, plainly, no.

Human emotions are the cause of government policies?

The distinction between the emotions and the appetites is somewhat arbitrary. The emotions of hunger, fear, frustration, lust, are all motivators of human action. When people act in conjunction as government, they are attempting to fulfill those appetites. The role of deception in human affairs does not mean that the actors are not attempting to rationally fulfill the logical goals of satisfying hunger, feeling safe, fulfilling their goals or getting laid. Plus others of course. Space war has no role in fulfilling any of these goals.

But what of more exotic goals, such as spreading the faith to heathen planets and such nonsense? Given that belief in God may not even motivate people to get up out of bed on Sunday morning, much less read the Bible (an ancient text not readily understood with very outdated notions of narrative,) and especially not give up prohibited sexual activities, it really staggers the imagination to think that such will cause people to invest the gigantic resources for space war. Frankly, I doubt they will invest the still gigantic but still much smaller amount of resources required for a simple sublight space probe, to return data after a few centuries.

But most of all, the assertion that governments, which are after all groups of people who must interact with each other by asserting some sort of intelligible goals and feasible methods of achieving them, somehow collectively emote on an irrational basis. Governments are not individuals and individual psychology is simply irrelevant. The claim is so extraordinary the burden of proof is on the proponent!

Again, the answer to the rhetorical question is no!
 
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Is it even possible to release a novelization of a movie, when the movie is (inaccurately) based on an existing book? I suppose that would be bad marketing. Advertising their movie's flaws and so on.

James Bond, The Spy Who Loved Me and James Bond and Moonraker are the novelizations of the respective films by Christopher Wood, screenwriter of both. As both movies differ greatly from Fleming's originals, it was decided that spin off books would be appropriate.

Although they follow the plots of the movies they are quite well written and have received praise from Bond fans.
 
One of the most common modern technological sensors in use these days is radar. You send a bunch of RF waves/photons out and eventually they hit something and bounce back. You can determine what they hit by measuring how long it takes them to return, how many of them return, at what angles, and so forth.

If you have, say, tachyons or some other FTL particle you can do exactly the same thing. A tachyon will bounce off an object much like a photon will and you can measure the return. Tachyons, however, are FTL. They will propagate at FTL velocities and come back at FTL velocities.

If you have FTL particles, then you have FTL sensors. It's just a matter of throwing them out and watching them bounce off things.

But that's a very big "if," and one that does not automatically follow from the existence of FTL propulsion. This is what both FluffyUnbound and I have been trying to point out to you. The known theoretical methods of FTL propulsion have nothing to do with "FTL particles." They all involve warping spacetime in a way that creates cosmic shortcuts so that particles limited to sublight speeds can make effectively FTL journeys without literally going faster than light. Therefore, it is entirely credible to postulate a fictional universe that has effective superluminal travel but does not and cannot have FTL sensors. Indeed, it's far more credible than the scenario you're proposing.


Sounds like that's going to be true whether it's a re-issue or a new novelization. Which suggests that the only reason we don't see more "re-novelizations" is just inertia. It's easier to re-release a book that already exists, and so on.

Not just inertia, but cost. You have to pay someone to write a novelization. If you can just reissue a book that's already been written and paid for, that's less overhead for the publisher. Although that's a plus for the original writer too, since they can get new attention and new royalties for an old work without having to do a day's work (except maybe to proofread the new edition, or maybe make some textual tweaks if so desired).
 
Personally, I have no problem with Paul Verhoeven turning his adaptation of Starship Troopers into a satire and critique of the original novel, given its content, but I admit I may feel differently if the same treatment was given to a book I was more attached to.
I pretty much judge films independently of the novel. Is it good on its own merits, given what it wants to achieve?

Yeah, I'd like Mozart's The Magic Flute, Luba Luft, and Buster Friendly all to have appeared in Blade Runner, but I won't hold their absence from the film too harshly.
 
Neither will you ever be able to prove you are right, Deckerd; not by using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, in any case.

Oh I can prove that, using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, FTL travel is impossible.

Really?
Well, then, by all means, go ahead and prove it - let's see your demonstration, Deckerd.

Don't need to demonstrate. If FTL travel were possible then someone would have proved it. Ergo it's not possible. This isn't rocket surgery, you know.

It's like saying it's impossible for humans to levitate. How do we know this? We know this because over time many many laboratories have tried to prove that humans can levitate and not one of them has ever proved it. Therefore we can say that levitation in humans is an impossibility.

Deckerd, next time, DO READ my posts:

"Neither will you ever be able to prove you are right, Deckerd; not by using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, in any case."

ALL "someones" in the world are bound by humanity's current level of physical knowledge.

Al what's with your random responses, Deckerd?:
"Oh I can prove that, using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, FTL travel is impossible."
Follwoed by:
"Don't need to demonstrate."

In other woeds, you are wasting my time - or making really opaque jokes wanna-be.
 
Well, if you want to bring tachyons into it, I'll bite. Even though tachyons don't exist.

The problem with tachyons or any other particle that could be made into an FTL sensor or communications device is that if you have one, and your enemy has one, then your enemy can set up a Tolman paradox and destroy spacetime.

When information moves faster than light for any reason, under special relativity that means it moves backwards in time. So when you're shooting your FTL sensor at your enemy, if he pulls his out and shoots it at you, he knows you're shooting your sensor before you actually shoot it. Poof! Paradox! Bye-bye spacetime.

Even if there's no paradox, if your beam goes, say, 2C, and the enemy is going 2C, you still don't have a workable sensor. Because your enemy and your sensor return arrive at the same time. Radar is useful to us because we don't travel close to C.
 
A temporal paradox of that sort wouldn't destroy spacetime. Either the laws of physics don't allow it to happen at all, in which case there's no FTL, period, or the laws of physics do allow it to happen and causality works differently than we believe. Heck, the physics we have says that a closed timelike curve may be permissible if it's self-consistent -- if there's no way to change the future based on advance knowledge thereof. Quantum theory even suggests that observing the future, and thus becoming entangled with it, constrains the observer to act in a way that will bring about that future.

As for having tachyon sensor beams that move faster than starships or missiles, that's potentially achievable; in fact, it's easy, assuming you're in a fictional universe where tachyons exist. Tachyons are the mirror image of normal matter, velocity-wise; the less energy they have, the faster they go. So if you had a technology that could produce tachyons, it would be simplicity itself to generate ones that went really fast.
 
Who's to say (especially in scifi/fantasy) that if you somehow break the "light barrier" you won't be able to move faster than light with less energy? Similar effect can be observed with super sonic speeds.

The interesting thing to go all philosophical about is, why would nature put an upper end to speeds? Essentially, you have the lower end, that is: no motion, zero energy, and the upper end: speed of light, infinite energy. But why is it at 300,000 km/s? What difference would it make if it was at 600,000 km/s or 3,000,000 km/s?
 
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The physicists here probably have a better answer, but I suspect that if c had a different value, a helluva lot of other physical laws would change with it. After all, what happens to E = mc2 if the value of c is different? If the fundamental relationship between matter and energy is different, the universe would look very different than it does, and probably could not support life.

Which means the answer to your question reverts to the anthropic principle. We can only observe c at 300,000 km/s, because if it was a different speed, we would not be here to observe it. There might have been/could be/are other universes with a different value for c, but they probably have no people in them.
 
Deckerd, next time, DO READ my posts:

"Neither will you ever be able to prove you are right, Deckerd; not by using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, in any case."

ALL "someones" in the world are bound by humanity's current level of physical knowledge.

Al what's with your random responses, Deckerd?:
"Oh I can prove that, using our current level of knowledge about the physical world, FTL travel is impossible."
Follwoed by:
"Don't need to demonstrate."

In other woeds, you are wasting my time - or making really opaque jokes wanna-be.

Lighten up Francis, this is supposed to be a fun thread.
 
The physicists here probably have a better answer, but I suspect that if c had a different value, a helluva lot of other physical laws would change with it. After all, what happens to E = mc2 if the value of c is different? If the fundamental relationship between matter and energy is different, the universe would look very different than it does, and probably could not support life.

Which means the answer to your question reverts to the anthropic principle. We can only observe c at 300,000 km/s, because if it was a different speed, we would not be here to observe it. There might have been/could be/are other universes with a different value for c, but they probably have no people in them.

Yeah, this is pretty much right. Our universe allows stars, planets, people, and kitty-cats to exist because its physical constants are precisely balanced in a way that makes them possible. In a universe with different physical constants, that balance wouldn't exist and neither could anything else (except kitty-cats, who make their own laws and often travel faster than light anyway).

For instance, c to the fourth power is a term in the denominator of the Einstein field equations that define how much spacetime is curved by mass/energy -- which effectively means how strong a gravitational pull is. So a higher value of c would give you a lower value of spacetime curvature for the same amount of energy; effectively, gravitation would be weaker, and thus would've had less effect at slowing the early expansion of the universe and drawing matter together into clumps like galaxies and stars. So a universe with a higher speed of light might be essentially an empty universe.

Now, there might be a way that you could balance a different value of c with different values for the other constants and get a different kind of stability, but we probably couldn't survive in such a universe.
 
The physicists here probably have a better answer, but I suspect that if c had a different value, a helluva lot of other physical laws would change with it. After all, what happens to E = mc2 if the value of c is different? If the fundamental relationship between matter and energy is different, the universe would look very different than it does, and probably could not support life.

Which means the answer to your question reverts to the anthropic principle. We can only observe c at 300,000 km/s, because if it was a different speed, we would not be here to observe it. There might have been/could be/are other universes with a different value for c, but they probably have no people in them.

Yeah, this is pretty much right. Our universe allows stars, planets, people, and kitty-cats to exist because its physical constants are precisely balanced in a way that makes them possible. In a universe with different physical constants, that balance wouldn't exist and neither could anything else (except kitty-cats, who make their own laws and often travel faster than light anyway).

For instance, c to the fourth power is a term in the denominator of the Einstein field equations that define how much spacetime is curved by mass/energy -- which effectively means how strong a gravitational pull is. So a higher value of c would give you a lower value of spacetime curvature for the same amount of energy; effectively, gravitation would be weaker, and thus would've had less effect at slowing the early expansion of the universe and drawing matter together into clumps like galaxies and stars. So a universe with a higher speed of light might be essentially an empty universe.

Now, there might be a way that you could balance a different value of c with different values for the other constants and get a different kind of stability, but we probably couldn't survive in such a universe.

Computer simulations did, indeed, show that our universe is 'fine tunnned', its constants so arranged so as to permit complexity, life. When different constants were inputed into the simulations, the results were boring universes where complexity could not have appeared.

Which raises the question - Why is this so?

Are we living in one of a gazillion universes, one that just happened to 'win the lottery' and have the physical constants that allow life to evolve?

Or is this 'fine tunning' proof of the hand of god, hovering above?
 
Computer simulations did, indeed, show that our universe is 'fine tunnned', its constants so arranged so as to permit complexity, life. When different constants were inputed into the simulations, the results were boring universes where complexity could not have appeared.

Which raises the question - Why is this so?

Are we living in one of a gazillion universes, one that just happened to 'win the lottery' and have the physical constants that allow life to evolve?

Or is this 'fine tunning' proof of the hand of god, hovering above?

Actually, I think this can be tied in to the discussion I was having above about paradoxes.

The anthropic principle says that the universe is the way it is because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be here to see it.

Maybe one of the requirements of the anthropic principle - one of the "just so" things that has to be the case, or we wouldn't exist - is that FTL travel and communication isn't possible.

Because if it were possible, it would create the possibility of paradoxes that would blow holes in the causality chain that keeps our universe chugging along.

Either the laws of physics don't allow it to happen at all, in which case there's no FTL, period, or the laws of physics do allow it to happen and causality works differently than we believe.

Well, it's entirely possible that the way the laws of physics actually prevent paradoxes is by destroying spacetime in the time-line where a paradox is created.

This might answer Fermi's Paradox, too. Maybe in all time-lines where aliens advance technologically to the point where they can travel FTL, paradoxes are created and the timeline ends. So the anthropic principle requires us to be alone in the universe, or to be the most-advanced species technologically, because in all other timelines where we aren't first the species that is first ruptures spacetime.
 
So what are these six fundamental numbers? The first is a ratio of the strength of the electrical forces that hold atoms together divided by the force of gravity between them....The second number is also a ratio and is the proportion of energy that is released when hydrogen fuses into helium.... The third number, also a ratio, relates the actual density of matter in the universe to a 'critical' density. At first sight this number appears to be about 0.4....The fourth number, only recently discovered, is a cosmic 'antigravity' and appears to control the expansion of the universe even though it has no discernible effect on scales less than a billion light years. The fifth number is the ratio of the energy required to break apart a galaxy compared to its 'rest mass energy' and is about 10-5. If this ratio were smaller the universe would be inert and structureless: if much larger the universe would be so violent that no stars or sun systems could survive. The sixth number, surprisingly, is the number of spatial dimensions in our world (3). Life could not exist if this was 2 or 4.

^^^Refreshing our memories by a Amazon review of Sir Martin Rees' Just Six Numbers, the main popular expression of the fine tuning thesis. I gather a few peole toy with different fundamental physical constants, but this is so far as I know the best worked out popular presentation of the fine tuning idea.

Rees is a cosmologist and his six numbers are the essential parameters for creating a universe like ours. The question of whether a universe exactly like ours is prerequisite for life is not so well supported as I recall (it's been some time since I read the book, it was an interlibrary loan and not available for reviewing.) This is particularly the case for assumption that the universe needs galaxies to have life. It may well be that much of the central galaxy is uninhabitable due to radiation. And the massive core black holes consuming practically every galaxy (or so it seems, anyhow) it is not clear that we shouldn't say this universe is particularly inhospitable to life!

When ratios are fine tuned, there are still an infinite number of physical constant values in numerator and denominator that give the required ratio. The ratio of cosmic mass density to the density required for a gravitationally "flat" universe you'll note is given as 0.4. I submit that a measurement with one significant figure is not actually fine tuned! And I suspect the measurement for cosmic expansion is even less accurate! Last, the inclusion of the number of spatial dimensions has an infinite number of significant figure because it is a simple count, not a measurement or calculation.

The upshot is that the fine tuning is not quite simple and incontrovertible fact. Deducing the existence of God is quite nonsensical.

The weak anthropic principle says that the universe has to develop in at least one way that permits life like us to have formed, otherwise we couldn't be here to observe. This is a tautology, but not a useful one so far as I can see. The strong anthropic principle is much too subtle to be usefully restated in popular terms by me. That's one sign there's something wrong with it, as it's not a mathematically forumulated theory which would be hard to put into words. I think it's because it's hooey.
 
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