Saucer Separation

[Cyke101]

All of these questions and scenarios (in-universe) had to have crossed the minds of the ship's designers. When the separating ship was proiposed, I'm sure someone said "But what are the occupants supposed to do then?". I seriously doubt the reply was "Sucks to be them!"

When we talk about the ship's creators, are we talking about the in-show engineers, or the TNG production crew? I ask because the latter is the reason why shuttles at first didn't have warp drive, which was especially ridiculous since they'd be used for long, long trips on impulse to other systems, when warp would get them there in a few minutes. Thankfully that's changed, but narratively speaking, warp-less shuttles was a silly concept that didn't take into account the vast gulfs of space.

 

[mos6507]

I always thought shuttles would be used as a substitute for transporting to and from planets or adjacent starbases. And that's how they were typically used in TOS. The fragile and low-range nature of shuttles is a good story vehicle, which was played up on The Galileo 7. So I don't see it as "silly" at all. It also helps warp drive feel a little more special to not have it so ubiquitous and miniaturized as in TNG onward. A warp engine in the TOS era is something that requires space and a fair amount of tending by trained engineers. It's not this tiny little thing that sits under the floorboards that you never think about.

As for the saucer having warp... It's got sub-space radio, right? So either the saucer lands on a nearby planet (as conceived for TOS) or it stays in space and then calls for help when the coast is clear. If that's not good enough for an emergency procedure, then why not say the lifeboats also have warp drive? At some point you're going to have to just rough-it.

 

[Shat Happens]

the saucer does have prominent blue-glowing bits

It does? where?

 

[Squiggy]

the saucer does have prominent blue-glowing bits

It does? where?

There it's commonly assumed the arboretum is.

Also, it's implied in Brothers that the saucer doesn't have warp:

WESLEY: He is on the Bridge, sir.
PICARD: Mister La Forge, prepare for saucer separation.
WESLEY: Sir, we're at Warp nine three.
PICARD: I am aware of the risks, Ensign. When the umbilical splits, we should regain primary control, do you agree?
LAFORGE: Yes, sir.
PICARD: The saucer module should fall out of warp in two minutes. Be prepared to sweep back. Pull it in with a tractor beam.
WORF: Aye, sir.
PICARD: Initiate auto sequence.

If Data did have control of the then separated saucer, what would have stopped him from engaging it's warp?

(aside from the fact it didn't have any)

Fandom needs to learn to read between the lines. You don't have to be smacked in the face with something to know it is or isn't there. Rectonning the retconning of the slopping script or understanding of science and distance is one of the things that killed the franchise.

 

[Richard Baker]

IIRC in EaF it was mentioned that when the saucer separated it would still be at warp for a while- the ship was traveling at it's maximum redline speed trying to outrun Q so the the saucer could have spent some significant tome in that leftover warp shell and dropped out of warp on the edges of the Farpoint system.
I do think some sort of Sustainer field generator would be good to have an the saucer- if they could cram that and a passenger into a torpedo casing then embedding one in the hull of the saucer should not be too difficult. Having an actual warp engine in the saucer is also not a bad idea and should not involve having glowing bits showing. If you carried/produced hydrogen you would not need the bussard collectors and you do not have to have exposed coils to produce a field. It may only travel at warp 3 but it is better than being relatively stranded in interstellar space waiting for someone to come get you.

 

[Kevman7987]

IIRC in EaF it was mentioned that when the saucer separated it would still be at warp for a while- the ship was traveling at it's maximum redline speed trying to outrun Q so the the saucer could have spent some significant tome in that leftover warp shell and dropped out of warp on the edges of the Farpoint system.
I do think some sort of Sustainer field generator would be good to have an the saucer- if they could cram that and a passenger into a torpedo casing then embedding one in the hull of the saucer should not be too difficult. Having an actual warp engine in the saucer is also not a bad idea and should not involve having glowing bits showing. If you carried/produced hydrogen you would not need the bussard collectors and you do not have to have exposed coils to produce a field. It may only travel at warp 3 but it is better than being relatively stranded in interstellar space waiting for someone to come get you.

That's what I figured; it was at least one of those things if not both. Saucer has a hidden nacelle allowing them to make Warp 1 for a limited time and a warp field sustainer for when the ship separates at higher warp speeds.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

I think there's a difference between what we see as a lifeboat today and a Separated self sustaining saucer section where no-one is at risk of drowning or starving to death.

I'm fully prepared to believed the Federation's intent of the Saucer Sep was for threat scenarios they're aware of in advance and emergency evacuation from warp core breaches like in Generations, not mid-battle improvised separating
The saucer is expected to find a safe harbour and await rescue, since it's a pretty resplendent cruise ship I guess the crew could mess around on the holodecks for a few months until Starfleet can get to them.

The later development of the Prometheus class may suggest Starfleet saw this policy wasn't working and decided to to something different with the separation scenario.
Less having civilians around to save and more turning a big battle ship into several smaller more maneuverable battle ships.
(anyone who ever saw Robot Wars with their cluster bots will know what they mean )

(Also on the Prometheus thing, when it separates a tiny, previously hidden warp nacelle appears on the saucer section so......there's that )

 

[CorporalCaptain]

IIRC in EaF it was mentioned that when the saucer separated it would still be at warp for a while- the ship was traveling at it's maximum redline speed trying to outrun Q so the the saucer could have spent some significant tome in that leftover warp shell and dropped out of warp on the edges of the Farpoint system.
I do think some sort of Sustainer field generator would be good to have an the saucer- if they could cram that and a passenger into a torpedo casing then embedding one in the hull of the saucer should not be too difficult. Having an actual warp engine in the saucer is also not a bad idea and should not involve having glowing bits showing. If you carried/produced hydrogen you would not need the bussard collectors and you do not have to have exposed coils to produce a field. It may only travel at warp 3 but it is better than being relatively stranded in interstellar space waiting for someone to come get you.

That's what I figured; it was at least one of those things if not both. Saucer has a hidden nacelle allowing them to make Warp 1 for a limited time and a warp field sustainer for when the ship separates at higher warp speeds.

Except Squiggy won the thread.

 

[jimbotron]

In BOBW, Riker nixes Shelby's idea of separating the saucer because they might need the energy from the saucer's impulse engines. Had the saucer had warp drive, I'm sure it would have come up during the show. I guess Andy Probert would know best.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I always thought shuttles would be used as a substitute for transporting to and from planets or adjacent starbases. And that's how they were typically used in TOS. The fragile and low-range nature of shuttles is a good story vehicle, which was played up on The Galileo 7. So I don't see it as "silly" at all. It also helps warp drive feel a little more special to not have it so ubiquitous and miniaturized as in TNG onward. A warp engine in the TOS era is something that requires space and a fair amount of tending by trained engineers. It's not this tiny little thing that sits under the floorboards that you never think about.

Kirk's shuttle in "The Menagerie" must have been chasing the Enterprise at warp speed.

 

[Timo]

And the saucer must have been flying at warp speed in one episode, and supposed to accelerate to warp speed in another. Which is why we know the warp drive is there - we were smacked in the face with it, twice.

Fandom needs to learn to read between the lines. You don't have to be smacked in the face with something to know it is or isn't there. Rectonning the retconning of the slopping script or understanding of science and distance is one of the things that killed the franchise.

Yet it's the writers that are retconning here - the saucer did have warp until that point, as evidenced from all the plots involving saucer separation. (Although retconning is a bit of a misnomer, as it would call for continuity in the first place, and continuity in treknology tends to be accidental only. Thankfully, so is discontinuity...)

However, what the fans did or did not do had no impact on the franchise at any point. Or on the writers or the quality of their work. What we do here at the forum stays at the forum for the most part; whatever tiny leakage there is to the novels doesn't much affect their artistic quality, writing style or other relevant things.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

supposed to accelerate to warp speed in another

What episode was this?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Back when TNG was about to be released, a great deal was said about the ship's ability to separate the battle section etc. To me it sounded like another boast that TNG would have better special effects (among other production values) than TOS.

Never made much sense to me. One or both sections have to lack some important system (how about a warp engine for the saucer?), or in "normal" mode, have to haul an awful lot of redundant equipment. It could be argued it's easier to have two complete spaceships.

Then there's the battle section looks very weird IMHO.

Turned out that, after the show-off in the pilot episode, that capability was used only in a few episodes and, I dare to say, never in a decisive manner.

I read somethere the designer of the Enterprise D wasn't told the ship was supposed to separate until after the design was complete (and with not much time left to devote to the problem).

I wonder if some more aesthetic solution could be invented given more time, or if the shape of the ship would have to be greatly modified.

Apparently, they separated in the borg-Picard-turned-into-a-drone episode (number two), although for the life of me I couldn't say why. Seems they wanted to fool Picard aka Locutus into thinking that they were implementing an old plan while they were in fact... not. On the other hand, there are a few things that are seen in the first episode that are never spoken of in the subsequent episodes ever again, e.g. men in skirts...

 

[Alrik]

supposed to accelerate to warp speed in another

What episode was this?

Good question. In EaF they were at Warp when they separated. In Arsenal of Freedom, Geordi ordered the intact Enterprise to Warp from the system, separate, then returned with only the Star Drive section. In BoBW, both section were at impulse. I don't recall any discussion about going to Warp. Finally, in Generations, the saucer was just being used as a lifeboat. That was it for separations.

 

[Timo]

It's a case of a one-two punch.

1) "Farpoint" establishes that the saucer can travel at warp for a long time and across a long distance when separated at warp. If the saucer dropped to impulse soon after separation, it could not reach Farpoint in the time allocated, but would limp there when "All Good Things..." end credits were rolling, if then - remember, it was backtracking several minutes of extreme-warp flight by the combined ship, plus whatever distance remained between the location of the first Q encounter and Farpoint.

2) In "Arsenal", the saucer is not separated at warp when it's facing an interstellar journey crucial to the safety of the crew, not to mention the urgent need to put distance between the saucer and a deadly enemy. This would be an offense calling for a firing squad or worse unless the saucer could attain warp on its own.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think it's safe to assume the saucer has some kind of warp engine, I just don't see how it couldn't. As many people have pointed out, the very people who would benefit from such things (families, civilians) would be put in terrible risk if it didn't have warp.

Or, to put it another way...*sings*

There will be no more isolation
In our saucer separation
You engaged warp so briefly, you rescued me....now free me

 

[Squiggy]

And the saucer must have been flying at warp speed in one episode, and supposed to accelerate to warp speed in another. Which is why we know the warp drive is there - we were smacked in the face with it, twice.

Bzzt. Wrong.

TMP showed us full impulse could reach speeds of 1/3c.

You could be outside a star system and get to it in hardly any time at this speed of impulse. We also don't really know how much time passed to get back to the saucer section. Could've been days for all we know.

I'm guessing the next 100 years of engine designs upped that maximum impulse speed, but in TNG you could go only 1,000,000 km in 3 minutes at 3/4 impulse (33,333,333 km per minute/.75= 44,444,444km/hr or .04c at full impulse).

Let's just assume that TNG reference is wrong because it doesn't fit what I'm trying to say...which seems to be perfectly ok. Why would 100 years of engine design make an engine go 1/10 as fast? Why would a ship of any size have three speeds? Barely moving, sorta barely moving, and then faster than light)

Even warp factors are all over the place. Sometimes you can warp in a system, unless you can't. Sometimes you can turn at warp, unless you can't. What does this mean?

The only speed that matters is the speed of the plot.

The speed of this plot.

supposed to accelerate to warp speed in another

What episode was this?

There was no episode of TNG where a sub-light traveling saucer section accelerated to warp. Nor was there any indication of distance traveled by said saucer section.

Nor has there been any reference to a warp system in the Galaxy Class saucer section - either on screen in dialogue, on the MSD, or in any of the official and countless off screen technical schematics.

There seems to be an assumption that there were vast distances needed to travel, but it could just as easily be assumed that the saucer section dropped out of warp and then by some sort of wizardry became invisible to sensors thanks to the hyperbolaric plasmotic enducer reduction assembly located on deck 8 (just aft of where the whale lounge was).

 

[Timo]

You could be outside a star system and get to it in hardly any time at this speed of impulse.

Which doesn't affect the fact that with warp, you could get there much faster. So if LaForge didn't give the saucer a warp boost, he was still making their trip a hundred times longer, or perhaps ten thousand times longer, for no defensible reason whatsoever.

Unless the saucer can accelerate to warp on its own, that is.

We also don't really know how much time passed to get back to the saucer section. Could've been days for all we know.

In "Farpoint"? Nobody went back to the saucer; it crossed significant interstellar distances all on its own.

In "Arsenal"? Nobody was supposed to - the saucer was to reach a starbase. While this probably did not happen, it's the original plan that matters.

Why would 100 years of engine design make an engine go 1/10 as fast?

Because you are pushing a ship ten times more massive? Actually, 1/10 performance would be perfectly consistent because "Relics" mentions that there hasn't been much development there (apparently, you can't improve on perfection until the next supergenius is born or the next alien species with radical new ideas is encountered) and because Picard's ship indeed is ten (or more like thirty) times more voluminous and thus probably more massive than Kirk's.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Squiggy]

Why would 100 years of engine design make an engine go 1/10 as fast?

Because you are pushing a ship ten times more massive?

So you'd justify that by saying the Federation...a collection of untold billions of scientists, scholars, and explorers...stuck the engine of the Wright Flyer on a 777?

 

[Alrik]

You could be outside a star system and get to it in hardly any time at this speed of impulse.

Which doesn't affect the fact that with warp, you could get there much faster. So if LaForge didn't give the saucer a warp boost, he was still making their trip a hundred times longer, or perhaps ten thousand times longer, for no defensible reason whatsoever.

Unless the saucer can accelerate to warp on its own, that is.

As Squiggy stated, there is absolutely nothing that would point to the saucer having warp drive. And why would it need to? By all accounts, it was designed to be a safe haven, and even a life boat for the 100's of civilian and non-relevant personnel on board. It had impulse drive to get them on their way, but it also had subspace communications capabilities for reaching out to the closest Federation ship or Starbase to ask for a tow. There was never anything that suggested otherwise.