Sarek; Bad dad?

[maryh]

TUC shows a further acceptance and mutual respect growing between the father and son.

Unfortunately, "Reunification" (TNG) seems to have undone all that. Spock said that "In the end the arguments were all we had."

This was posted under the TOS board so for some of us what TNG did to these characters happened in the alternative universe.

The arguments those logical, peaceful loving, cool, dispassionate Vulcans have are legendary throughout the galaxy. Those 2 didn't speak for 18 years, healed their relationship for another 25 only to constantly argue. Imagine that! Another example of trying to strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. TNG hoped to win the audiences love for the TOS original characters by making Picard the great uniter and the source of strength for Sarek. All they created was an inconsistent, irregular. insensible story line where the characters we saw were very different from those we knew from TOS.

Reboot time.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Sarek wasn't a "dad." He was a father. Those of you who don't get the distinction had parents born after 1940. Indeed, in some ways he reminds me of a kinder version of my own father.

 

[Saxman1]

TUC shows a further acceptance and mutual respect growing between the father and son.

Unfortunately, "Reunification" (TNG) seems to have undone all that. Spock said that "In the end the arguments were all we had."

This was posted under the TOS board so for some of us what TNG did to these characters happened in the alternative universe.

The arguments those logical, peaceful loving, cool, dispassionate Vulcans have are legendary throughout the galaxy. Those 2 didn't speak for 18 years, healed their relationship for another 25 only to constantly argue. Imagine that! Another example of trying to strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. TNG hoped to win the audiences love for the TOS original characters by making Picard the great uniter and the source of strength for Sarek. All they created was an inconsistent, irregular. insensible story line where the characters we saw were very different from those we knew from TOS.

Reboot time.

Well, McCoy came off nicely in Farpoint. However, Scotty and Spock, not so much. Kirk's death in the Nexis (Generations)? That's definitely alternate universe.

Yeah, modern Trek was not so good to TOS cast, seemily tripping over themselves to show them as irrelevant. How about Sulu and Rand in the Voyager ep? Coma inducing....once you get past the Sulu scenery chewing...

 

[Red Ranger]

Father, dad, what's the difference! Semantics -- sheesh! One word is a more famiiliar way of addressing your father. Big freaking deal! -- RR

 

[A beaker full of death]

Father, dad, what's the difference! Semantics -- sheesh! One word is a more famiiliar way of addressing your father. Big freaking deal! -- RR

No, it's not semantics. That was my point. I take it you had a "dad."
Some of us - especially those whose parents are of a certain generation and / or culture - have formal fathers who do not believe the familiarity you describe is proper. They do not express emotional attachments toward or, in general, approval of their sons. Sarek, as depicted so ably by Lenard, is clearly in this category.
My father was born in Austria in 1919. He, too, falls into this category.
Until this thread it had not occurred to me that this sort of parent might be outside the experience of some posters (not meaning you, necessarily).

 

[Red Ranger]

Father, dad, what's the difference! Semantics -- sheesh! One word is a more famiiliar way of addressing your father. Big freaking deal! -- RR

No, it's not semantics. That was my point. I take it you had a "dad."
Some of us - especially those whose parents are of a certain generation and / or culture - have formal fathers who do not believe the familiarity you describe is proper. They do not express emotional attachments toward or, in general, approval of their sons. Sarek, as depicted so ably by Lenard, is clearly in this category.
My father was born in Austria in 1919. He, too, falls into this category.
Until this thread it had not occurred to me that this sort of parent might be outside the experience of some posters (not meaning you, necessarily).

Ah. I would say your interaction with your father is the reason you're the (barely) lovable curmudgeon you are today! Just joking. I do see your point, as my dad was authoritarian, too. But despite that, he was still my dad, stern, disapproving outlook and all. -- RR

 

[Tralah]

TUC shows a further acceptance and mutual respect growing between the father and son.

Unfortunately, "Reunification" (TNG) seems to have undone all that. Spock said that "In the end the arguments were all we had."

Well, in all fairness the time between TUC and Unification gave them ample time to find other things to argue about. I always got the impression that both men were extremely stubborn and certain of themselves. It would not surprise me that other disagreements managed to keep their relationship rather strained at times, but I bet their relationship had some ups as well downs over those years.

 

[maryh]

Father, dad, what's the difference! Semantics -- sheesh! One word is a more famiiliar way of addressing your father. Big freaking deal! -- RR

No, it's not semantics. That was my point. I take it you had a "dad."
Some of us - especially those whose parents are of a certain generation and / or culture - have formal fathers who do not believe the familiarity you describe is proper. They do not express emotional attachments toward or, in general, approval of their sons. Sarek, as depicted so ably by Lenard, is clearly in this category.
My father was born in Austria in 1919. He, too, falls into this category.
Until this thread it had not occurred to me that this sort of parent might be outside the experience of some posters (not meaning you, necessarily).

Ah. I would say your interaction with your father is the reason you're the (barely) lovable curmudgeon you are today! Just joking. I do see your point, as my dad was authoritarian, too. But despite that, he was still my dad, stern, disapproving outlook and all. -- RR

I think with these stern authoritative type fathers you have to ask yourself what the father's motivations were. Was your father just wanting to be right about everything and in control all the time, or did he really want what was best for you while deeming his judgment to be superior to yours? I believe Sarek to be the later type.

I also believe that true Vulcans do not have the capacity that Humans have for emotions and feelings. At the time of their Surak Reformation, they started using the logic portions of their brains more while using the emotion portions less. Over time their brains evolved naturally according to that portion of the brain which was used more. They evolved into beings that are are by nature more logical and less emotional than humans - not just a cultural thing. They have some remnants of emotion still, but they are significantly less than in humans - more like impluses from their rudimentary emotion center that they don't understand. STTNG redefined all this instead as a Vulcan brain that kept its powerful emotion portion during the evolutionary process and instead developed a new area of the brain for the repression of emotions. In my scenario Sarek truly cannot understand emotions so he is off the hook for not being unable to provide emotional support. In the TNG's version he has emotions so therefore he can understand them but he simply chooses to suppress them due to his culture and chooses to provide no emotional support to his son.

IMO Sarek simply does not understand emotions and feelings because he has lessened capacity for them. So he cannot really understand his wife and child either. He means well though and over time learns that accepting does not necessarily mean you can relate or understand something but you see its goodness anyhow.

 

[maryh]

TUC shows a further acceptance and mutual respect growing between the father and son.

Unfortunately, "Reunification" (TNG) seems to have undone all that. Spock said that "In the end the arguments were all we had."

Well, in all fairness the time between TUC and Unification gave them ample time to find other things to argue about. I always got the impression that both men were extremely stubborn and certain of themselves. It would not surprise me that other disagreements managed to keep their relationship rather strained at times, but I bet their relationship had some ups as well downs over those years.

I always pictured our imaginary Vulcan as one of the most boring planets in the galaxy. They are all logical, peaceful, no crime, no domestic violence etc. This also equals no passion, fun, joy or wild parties either. IMO arguments involve passion. Vulcans might debate, but not argue. The same man who said "Tellarites do not argue for reasons, they simply argue" would hardly find himself becoming Tellarite-like. Spock is a little testier than his father but an argument cannot be one-sided, and even he with all of McCoy's badgering he rarely argued or said very much. Seems to me that after all they had been through together, they would have learned mutual respect, disagreement without arguing, duty to family (being there for your father's death) and an understanding of each other. If Spock managed to do this with his total opposite McCoy. it seem logical that he would do so with his more similar father.

I always believed that Sarek chose a human wife because Vulcans are so boring. He found her (and humans) as fascinating as humans find Vulcans. After years of logic, peace, agreement on his own planet, his position as an Ambassador exposed him to more fascinating people and cultures. He may think his way is better, but this doesn't exclude being fascinated and intrigued by another seemingly inferior culture.

 

[Tralah]

Unfortunately, "Reunification" (TNG) seems to have undone all that. Spock said that "In the end the arguments were all we had."

Well, in all fairness the time between TUC and Unification gave them ample time to find other things to argue about. I always got the impression that both men were extremely stubborn and certain of themselves. It would not surprise me that other disagreements managed to keep their relationship rather strained at times, but I bet their relationship had some ups as well downs over those years.

I always pictured our imaginary Vulcan as one of the most boring planets in the galaxy. They are all logical, peaceful, no crime, no domestic violence etc. This also equals no passion, fun, joy or wild parties either. IMO arguments involve passion. Vulcans might debate, but not argue.

Wow, I've never pictured Vulcans that way. I'm sure a good portion of their population is peaceful, but I doubt ALL Vulcans are perfect boring clones of each other. Vulcans strive to control their emotions, but that does not mean they are ALWAYS in control, and we've seen scores of examples of this throughout the shows. And to say Vulcans "debate", but not "argue" sounds just like petty semantics to me. Both words essentially amount to the same thing.