Sandman (Comic Book) and a question that may have no answer

[God Magnus]

Hi everybody,

I recently began reading the Vertigo "Sandman" title for the first time. I'm on the third trade now, but kept thinking about the first, which offered many direct (and some indirect) crossovers with the larger DCU. I understand this series ended ages ago before all the big to-do with the various Crisis titles and "52". I've only read "52" in trade and read "Identity Crisis", so I know I'm missing bits and pieces of recent DC "history".

What I'm wondering is: have any of the current universe spanning titles ever touched on how the Endless are affected by all these wacky Crisis events? I'm curious if they exist in a realm "outside" the normal flow of universal events or have they even been referenced? Just curious.

 

[ElScoob]

I don't believe they've been referenced anytime recently, no. And this is indeed due to their existing in a realm outside the normal flow of events, known as "Neil Gaiman's exclusive rights over the characters".

Of other writers, apparently only Grant Morrison is powerful enough to access this realm, as we saw in a JLA two-parter guest-starring Daniel/Dream some years back...



--g

 

[ClayinCA]

And Death just appeared in Madame Xanadu a month or so back.

 

[Gojirob]

Hi everybody,

I recently began reading the Vertigo "Sandman" title for the first time. I'm on the third trade now, but kept thinking about the first, which offered many direct (and some indirect) crossovers with the larger DCU. I understand this series ended ages ago before all the big to-do with the various Crisis titles and "52". I've only read "52" in trade and read "Identity Crisis", so I know I'm missing bits and pieces of recent DC "history".

What I'm wondering is: have any of the current universe spanning titles ever touched on how the Endless are affected by all these wacky Crisis events? I'm curious if they exist in a realm "outside" the normal flow of universal events or have they even been referenced? Just curious.

The story as I've heard it is that Neil Gaiman was not entirely comfortable with superheroes in his world. J'onn J'onnz and Scott Free appeared early on, as the JL had defeated John Dee in the past, and weakened Dream needed info on his whereabouts. Then, Death made an appearance in Captain Atom, represented as 'Death As Sweet Release', along with other DC incarnations of Death. Gaiman said that she was not a part of a 'Legion Of Deaths', she was simply Death itself. I believe this helped cause Vertigo to be cut off almost entirely from the DCU. Myself, I always thought that Endless-Death could have simply claimed the Black Racer and Nekron et al were her servants, tasked with dealing with those races she found a headache.

"Well, Bro, the New Gods? They WHINE. Darkseid's Dad cried all over my shoes, shrieking how it wasn't fair, like he was that big mobster from that old Bugs Bunny...I'll explain it later. Sigh. The Oans? They're even worse. They like to 'philosophize'. Like-I-have-time. So I created Black Racer for the one, and Nekron for the other. Bad idea there. Racer's cool, and basically just does his job. Nekron got so full of himself. Decides he's going to 'overthrow' me. So when Captain Atom takes a little nap in the hereafter, I grab him and use him to take down Nekron, basically telling him, I Think So Little Of You, Here's A Mortal To Handle Your Rebellion. Nice guy. I told him a story his military mind could handle, concerning who I was."

Sorry for the length. Anyway, other oblique references were made during the run, particularly as regarded Lyta Hall. One story mentioned her 'vanished mother', never really making clear whether it meant the Post-Crisis Golden Age Fury or the GA E2 Wonder Woman. Another one off the top of my head was where a guy tells a tale of alternate Americas, and comments that 'there used to be a lot more' of them. W/o spoiling, some very DCU characters make appearances before its all over, but not as saving or attacking forces. Back when Doomsday was trapped at the end of time, I asked what would happen if Death encountered him. Someone said she would slap him and tell him to stop growling while she shut everything down--and he would.

IIRC, Dream did appear in an Xover with Superman wherein the Kryptonian god Rao wanted to die and be at peace, but the presence of even one Kryptonian meant he couldn't.

 

[Mike Farley]

Vertigo likes to pretend that they're not a part of the DC Universe, even though most of their books have their origins there (talking about the company owned stuff obviously, not the creator owned).

As best as I can remember only the original Crisis on Infinite Earths has any "Vertigo" participation (although this was pre-Vertigo). Issue #46 of Swamp Thing was labeled as a Crisis-crossover.

Dream or Death make rare appearances in DC proper, usually cameos. For instance Death appeared in a single panel of Legion of Super-Heroes (volume 4(?)-the 5 years later book).

 

[God Magnus]

Vertigo likes to pretend that they're not a part of the DC Universe, even though most of their books have their origins there (talking about the company owned stuff obviously, not the creator owned).

I've gotten that impression, which I find strange considering how much crossover there's been over the years. I know Batman and Superman have both crossed over in scenes with John Constantine for instance. And Sandman Mystery Theater features a character who has been acknowledged in mainline DC books in more than just obscure cameos.

I think I almost prefer it this way. I haven't been happy with the various Crisis storylines and while 52 was a fun read part of the time, it didn't interest me enough to get into "Final Crisis". It's nice to think that the world of the Endless is perhaps one sidestep outside the realm of Earth <insert number here> and Prime this and that.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Dream or Death make rare appearances in DC proper, usually cameos. For instance Death appeared in a single panel of Legion of Super-Heroes (volume 4(?)-the 5 years later book).

Correct. Death appeared in the issue where the Earth was destroyed. That was rather controversial, as it was during the period where Legion slipped between editors (and the Superman titles went and destroyed the Moon in the Legion's era). Permissions were given, then rescinded at the last minute, then reconsidered, and ultimately the book went out with Death making an appearance.

 

[JoeZhang]

JC and Swamp thing turn up at Hal Jordan's funeral.

 

[blockaderunner]

^^^ And in the Death Of Superman funeral poster, Dream is seen among the mourners.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sandman ran for 75 issues between 1989 and 1996.

You might as well ask how WWII impacted on Charles Dickens.

Destiny and his book featured prominently in a dozen or so issues of the Brave and the Bold last year, written by mark waid and drawn by various.

There was an ongoing anothologie series about minor characters called "sandman presents" by various authors and artists, and then a series called "the Dreaming" ran for quite some time, and Lucifer got his own series which spun right out of Sandman, and Joanna Constantine has had some specials and annuals released attached to her decendant John's title.

And you have to remember that before they magically altered history, that that little baby Daniel is the grandson of the golden age Wonder Woman and Hawkman... Which I didn't really notice till my second read through since I'm not a fan of Infinity Inc... Lyta Trevor, as in "the daughter of Steve Trevor".

 

[God Magnus]

You might as well ask how WWII impacted on Charles Dickens.

I see what you mean, but I was thinking more on a universal / editorial level. Dickens and WWII didn't exist in a universe where an editor was trying to retcon entire continuities out of existence.

 

[shanejayell]

There's a pair of Justice League issues with DReam, too from Grant Morrison's run.

My understanding is that Vertigo is kept seperate from the DCU because of mature content rules... they don't want to cross over to titles that might offend kids.