Outstanding thread and comments . . . I'm struggling here because I want to say something nice about TEI, one of my very least favorites, but it's not "traditionally poorly held" . . . just the opposite in fact.
Same something nice about traditionally poorly held TOS eps
- Thread starter Dale Sams
- Start date
Totally agree on Enterprise incident. Fantastic fun episode that bear zero scrutiny because it just doesn't make any kind of sense logically. Especially after Spock "kills" Kirk and they ship his body back to the Enterprise while he's just apparently in a coma. And then he beams back aboard pretending to be a Romulan is just nonsensical. I mean at that point they had just given up on the whole idea of language barriers but seriously on an Espionage mission he's speaking what language to those romulans soldiers? English? Did he take a crash course in Romulan? Or are we supposed to believe that there's some kind of translating device that would also hide the fact that he's not speaking Romulan but the Romulan is hearing Romulan?
And in By Any Other Name, Rojan should have shrunk 3 crew members down to those Decahydrons and then played a shell game with them like they do at a carnival!
" now Captain Kirk try to keep your eye on the Yeoman and see if you guess the right Cube"
He could have covered each cube with a coconut shell and swished them around on the grass.
And in By Any Other Name, Rojan should have shrunk 3 crew members down to those Decahydrons and then played a shell game with them like they do at a carnival!
" now Captain Kirk try to keep your eye on the Yeoman and see if you guess the right Cube"
He could have covered each cube with a coconut shell and swished them around on the grass.
First, thank you, truly for using "bear scrutiny" correctly, like Kirk does at the end of DID with Spock.
Second, after Kirk beams back to the Romulan ship is when the plot - apart from the nonsensical fanfic between Spock and the least militarily wary commander in Romulan or indeed Star Trek franchise history - actually PICKS UP. And yet you pointed out a great flaw in that part of the ep I never thought much about.
Er, I'm supposed to say something nice about TEI, then. Scott is awesome. Chapel is fun. Joanne Linville does a great acting job even with a preposterously written part. There we go.
Yes Joanna Linville did a fantastic job despite how the part was written. I almost in some way wish the mission had failed although that was never going to happen in 1968 TV. Because if the romulans had done a complete investigation of the events of the episode they most certainly would have put her to death.
I my head-canon, I would assume the Romulans are speaking either English/Federation Standard or using some sort of translator device when they bring Kirk and Spock on board. Kirk and Spock act like they don't understand Romulan, but one of the reasons they were selected for this mission is that they can speak Romulan. When Kirk returns in disguise, he is speaking Romulan to the Romulans. Or...
Another idea is that there are many different languages spoken inside the Romulan Empire, and instead of mandating a common language, they got lazy and simply let everyone use translator devices. Possibly, this is the same case in the Federation with 7,117 languages on spoken Earth alone plus all the alien languages. So, translator device communications are probably the norm for most advanced civilizations, and use even on board a ship is expected. This also explains why every new planet they encounter all speak English. You got to love that universal translator.
I can't see an Empire run by romulans not having a standard language. Maybe in a democracy like the Federation they would allow people to enlist if you didn't speak standard Federation language but it seems like a centurion of the Romulan Empire would be speaking official Romulan. He was masquerading as an officer. I could see where they might let grunt foot soldiers join who didn't speak perfect Romulan but officers on Starships?
At any rate I did an examination of the first season of Star Trek and there were only two episodes where there was no logical way that they could be conversing with another race.
In like 27 of the 29 first season episodes they either explicitly mentioned a translating device or were speaking with other members of the Federation who would presumably know standard Federation "English" or they were dealing with people like the organians and the metrons who are highly Advanced apparent telepaths. They covered themselves pretty well in season 1 as how they can be conversing with people. The first stand out mistake in season 1 was Return of the archons. They were trying to blend in as people "from the valley" and there's no way they knew the language of Landru's people or that anybody wouldn't be surprised that they were using a translating device when they were already suspicious of their actions. But to have made it that far into season 1 without people saying what the heck is going on with alien languages is not actually too bad.
At any rate I did an examination of the first season of Star Trek and there were only two episodes where there was no logical way that they could be conversing with another race.
In like 27 of the 29 first season episodes they either explicitly mentioned a translating device or were speaking with other members of the Federation who would presumably know standard Federation "English" or they were dealing with people like the organians and the metrons who are highly Advanced apparent telepaths. They covered themselves pretty well in season 1 as how they can be conversing with people. The first stand out mistake in season 1 was Return of the archons. They were trying to blend in as people "from the valley" and there's no way they knew the language of Landru's people or that anybody wouldn't be surprised that they were using a translating device when they were already suspicious of their actions. But to have made it that far into season 1 without people saying what the heck is going on with alien languages is not actually too bad.
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Could a non-advanced civilization recognize a universal translator in operation, though? Perhaps it disguises itself somehow. Incidentally, what's the other S1 ep where you feel there was a universal translator fail? TOA?
No not taste of Armageddon because the Eminians knew that they were Outsiders and therefore would not be put off by some sort of translating device that had a delay or where the lips of the speaker would not be matching the sound they were hearing. Whereas A Primitive culture like the people in Return of the archons would totally freak out if they look ed somebody in the face and their mouth was making one type of movement and the sound they were hearing didn't match the lip movements like when we see a poorly dubbed foreign film it stands out very clearly.
I'm trying to figure out what the other episode was I had gone through all 29 episodes and noted the ones that it did make since but now I forgot the other. Lol
I'm trying to figure out what the other episode was I had gone through all 29 episodes and noted the ones that it did make since but now I forgot the other. Lol
Wait a second you are right about the other episode being a taste of Armageddon because later in the episode they are trying to pretend they are inhabitants by stealing uniforms and so forth. And since I mean Eminiar 7 is a xenophobic closed planet then yes anybody they spoke to should have been alarmed by them using a translating device. Unless of course there were citizens in the capital city that didn't speak their standard language and they themselves had translator technology.
In errand of Mercy Kirk and Spock should have been surprised that the organians apparently A Primitive people were not shocked buy them speaking through a translator but they already noted that they were acting peculiar anyway in the fact that they didn't seem surprised when they beamed down. And we later find out of course that there highly advanced non-corporeal race so that was the explanation.
The advanced omnipotent alien races excuse can be used multiple times during the first season. Starting with the talosians the organians, the Metrons the race of trelane, the Thasians.
Ship-to-ship translators would account for them speaking with the romulans and Balok. Other equally Advanced races like the Klingons would be aware of instantaneous translators and probably have their own as well.
And a shocking number of season 1 episodes have them conversing with only people on the Enterprise itself or people who come from Federation planets.
Doctor korby and his robot duplicate had time to teach Ruk English Professor crater had time to teach the salt vampire English if it wasn't telepathic anyway. The creators of the shore leave Planet apparently already had technology that could read minds in order to create instantly the things and people that it did.
They use the Mind meld to communicate with the horta. Khan was from Earth. Lazarus claimed to be from Earth and he called his planet Earth and himself human oddly enough. And that may have been one of the reasons why they had miri's planet be an exact duplicate of Earth so that they wouldn't have to be dealing with the issue of communicating simply the fact that it was an identical planet.
That's what stands out in my mind when I see Enterprise incident and return of the archons. They are trying to pretend to be who they aren't and they're either speaking a different language or using a translating device which would blow their cover.
And since I've come this far I will finish off the thought.
The other episodes where they are at various points trying to pretend to be native inhabitants are....
Bread and circuses where they use the ridiculous logic that the natives spoke English even though they were in a Roman Empire that had never fallen where clearly Latin would have continued to be the dominant language an English would have never risen if Rome had never fallen.
In piece of the action there a couple of times where they're pretending to be natives where a translating device would have been spotted but since the episode was played for Laughs anyway it doesn't matter I guess. In patterns of force clearly a xenophobic race would be wondering why people wearing their uniforms are speaking another language or using a translator. In Paradise syndrome they assume that Kirk is a God so a translating device would be just another proof of his divinity and eventually he would learn their Native American language after weeks and months. And the last one where it sticks out is all our yesterdays where he's already being accused of being a witch and if he wasn't speaking the native language and using a translating device to converse with them that would have been even more proof that he was a witch than the fact that he was speaking to a wall.
In errand of Mercy Kirk and Spock should have been surprised that the organians apparently A Primitive people were not shocked buy them speaking through a translator but they already noted that they were acting peculiar anyway in the fact that they didn't seem surprised when they beamed down. And we later find out of course that there highly advanced non-corporeal race so that was the explanation.
The advanced omnipotent alien races excuse can be used multiple times during the first season. Starting with the talosians the organians, the Metrons the race of trelane, the Thasians.
Ship-to-ship translators would account for them speaking with the romulans and Balok. Other equally Advanced races like the Klingons would be aware of instantaneous translators and probably have their own as well.
And a shocking number of season 1 episodes have them conversing with only people on the Enterprise itself or people who come from Federation planets.
Doctor korby and his robot duplicate had time to teach Ruk English Professor crater had time to teach the salt vampire English if it wasn't telepathic anyway. The creators of the shore leave Planet apparently already had technology that could read minds in order to create instantly the things and people that it did.
They use the Mind meld to communicate with the horta. Khan was from Earth. Lazarus claimed to be from Earth and he called his planet Earth and himself human oddly enough. And that may have been one of the reasons why they had miri's planet be an exact duplicate of Earth so that they wouldn't have to be dealing with the issue of communicating simply the fact that it was an identical planet.
That's what stands out in my mind when I see Enterprise incident and return of the archons. They are trying to pretend to be who they aren't and they're either speaking a different language or using a translating device which would blow their cover.
And since I've come this far I will finish off the thought.
The other episodes where they are at various points trying to pretend to be native inhabitants are....
Bread and circuses where they use the ridiculous logic that the natives spoke English even though they were in a Roman Empire that had never fallen where clearly Latin would have continued to be the dominant language an English would have never risen if Rome had never fallen.
In piece of the action there a couple of times where they're pretending to be natives where a translating device would have been spotted but since the episode was played for Laughs anyway it doesn't matter I guess. In patterns of force clearly a xenophobic race would be wondering why people wearing their uniforms are speaking another language or using a translator. In Paradise syndrome they assume that Kirk is a God so a translating device would be just another proof of his divinity and eventually he would learn their Native American language after weeks and months. And the last one where it sticks out is all our yesterdays where he's already being accused of being a witch and if he wasn't speaking the native language and using a translating device to converse with them that would have been even more proof that he was a witch than the fact that he was speaking to a wall.
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This also explains why every new planet they encounter all speak English. You got to love that universal translator.
On Earth there have been many societies that were multi lingual. And throughout history there have been many societies where a lot of people spoke several different languages more or less well.
I note that in the medieval eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Empire the words used by the military came from the Latin, Greek, and Germanic languages.
In the Austrian Empire and in Austria-Hungary the main language of the army was German, but officers were required to know four different languages to communicate with soldiers, who came from lands where over a dozen different languages were spoken.
So I can easily believe that there could be a number of different languages in the Romulan Space Navy even if only Romulans themselves served. And if there was a single official language in the space navy it might have many dialects, so that Romulan crew members might be used to fellow crew members speaking in odd dialects they could barely understand.
I think things like The Enterprise Incident tend to be well looked-upon despite their flaws, largely because Season 3 is slim pickings for good episodes. So, we have a habit on compensating, and seeing the good ones as really really good, because they stand in contrast to the rest.
That being said, I genuinely enjoy much of Season 3, even though whenever I rewatch it, I really feel it's got this... undefinable otherness to the rest of TOS. Like, it's still TOS, it's Star Trek, but it's also... I dunno, hyper-textualized somehow.
That being said, I genuinely enjoy much of Season 3, even though whenever I rewatch it, I really feel it's got this... undefinable otherness to the rest of TOS. Like, it's still TOS, it's Star Trek, but it's also... I dunno, hyper-textualized somehow.
"The Empath" gets a lot of criticism from some fans due to its very limited budget, minimalist set design and Gem being a character who doesn't speak during the entirety of the episode but I grew to love it as I matured from childhood to adulthood. The soundtrack for the episode is nothing short of beautiful and sublime and Kathryn Hays did a splendid job as Gem, emoting the proper expressions in ways that made you believe she genuinely cared for the Enterprise senior officers trapped in the Vians' experiment. It's not one of the best episodes but it certainly isn't as bad as some make it out to be.
I think the main problem with the episode is that the Vians come off as completely sadistic creeps.
You have to admire Kirk Spock and McCoy and Gem and what day go through together and the sacrifices they make for each other but the motivations and the methods of the Vians are so Byzantine and nonsensical that the episode suffers. They really come off as way more sadistic than as Kirk describes them at the end as "cold and dead inside."
It's one thing to be unemotional and cold and logical but they're sadism is just unexplainable and uncalled for considering that they are as advanced as they are. And then Kirk makes his little speech at the end and somehow they snap out of it and grow a little bit of compassion. Like most third season episodes the premise is fine but the execution further you go into the episode becomes weaker and weaker
And that's what has been mentioned with Spock's brain and the children shall lead and Enterprise incident. It's like they had these good ideas it got lost in the shuffle in the rush of production
You have to admire Kirk Spock and McCoy and Gem and what day go through together and the sacrifices they make for each other but the motivations and the methods of the Vians are so Byzantine and nonsensical that the episode suffers. They really come off as way more sadistic than as Kirk describes them at the end as "cold and dead inside."
It's one thing to be unemotional and cold and logical but they're sadism is just unexplainable and uncalled for considering that they are as advanced as they are. And then Kirk makes his little speech at the end and somehow they snap out of it and grow a little bit of compassion. Like most third season episodes the premise is fine but the execution further you go into the episode becomes weaker and weaker
And that's what has been mentioned with Spock's brain and the children shall lead and Enterprise incident. It's like they had these good ideas it got lost in the shuffle in the rush of production
When seen/heard in person, I always thought Balok's words didn't quite match his lips, for some reason.
The answer is now obvious; universal translator. 
Cuboctahedrons, dammit. Not "Decahydrons." Not "decahedrals." CUBOCTAHEDRONS!
no, those were among the high lights of the episode, having spock join in was fantastic.
I also enjoyed scenes (in other episodes) where uhura sang, and spock played his vulcan harp.
ymmv.
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The singing parts were the best!
I'll take Adam and his jam session over almost anything in "The Mark of Gideon" or "And the Children Shall Lead."