Same canon?
- Thread starter Captrek
- Start date
Re: Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?
You take out the "As a human might say" which is part of the call back to "The Undiscovered Country" and when you do that you miss the fact that this Spock, in this situation, is embracing a part of his humanity.
In "The Undiscovered Country" Spock says: "If I were human I believe my response would be 'go to hell.'... If I were human." And everyone knows he is saying 'go to hell'
bonus quote from TUC:
"Logic. Logic. Logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end."
Considering that you read the book a year ago, and didn't have it in front of you to quote, it is misleading for you to say you are quoting it especially if you have an axe to grind, and want to ignore the part that doesn't agree with the point you are trying to make.
You take out the "As a human might say" which is part of the call back to "The Undiscovered Country" and when you do that you miss the fact that this Spock, in this situation, is embracing a part of his humanity.
In "The Undiscovered Country" Spock says: "If I were human I believe my response would be 'go to hell.'... If I were human." And everyone knows he is saying 'go to hell'
bonus quote from TUC:
"Logic. Logic. Logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end."
Considering that you read the book a year ago, and didn't have it in front of you to quote, it is misleading for you to say you are quoting it especially if you have an axe to grind, and want to ignore the part that doesn't agree with the point you are trying to make.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
That's it in a nutshell. If they really wanted to be free of "The weight of canon" then they should have gone for a full reboot. They didn't. They chose to tie it to the existing universe and all that that entails. What happens to the people after the NuUniverse branches off is up to them but, by and large, the playing field is the same. There's Andorians and Tellarites and Delta Vega is an uninhabited planet with an automated station at the edge of the galaxy. If they can't play with the toys the way that they are then they should have opened a whole new toy box.
It's academic. They played in your toybox and moved some of the blocks around, and most people had no trouble with it at all. And I get the feeling that a lot of people who are crying for a complete reboot would be upset if there had been one. . .
They wanted to be free of Canon to the extent that it removes unpredictability and constrains creativity in the Star Trek universe.
The established Canon, prior to this movie, made virtually impossible the idea of an entry point for those unfamiliar with the canon, and thus limiting it's audience.
They also knew that they had to revise and revamp Star Trek's presentation.
Third, they had to remain true to Canon while making the necessary revisions, so as not to alienate the fanbase (us).
To do so, they created an Alternate Reality, and used Spock as a shepherd for us fans into the new incarnation, and designing the movie such that everything a new viewer needed to know was in the movie itself.
Without the Alternate Reality scenario, they would be cutting the existing fanbase out of the picture, and getting everyone's (in Trek fandom) ire.
If they had kept 100% within a linear story, current Canon would mean that Star Trek would effectively be "more of the same", and the movie simply could not have introduced the fresh start Star Trek really needed.
The established Canon, prior to this movie, made virtually impossible the idea of an entry point for those unfamiliar with the canon, and thus limiting it's audience.
They also knew that they had to revise and revamp Star Trek's presentation.
Third, they had to remain true to Canon while making the necessary revisions, so as not to alienate the fanbase (us).
To do so, they created an Alternate Reality, and used Spock as a shepherd for us fans into the new incarnation, and designing the movie such that everything a new viewer needed to know was in the movie itself.
Without the Alternate Reality scenario, they would be cutting the existing fanbase out of the picture, and getting everyone's (in Trek fandom) ire.
If they had kept 100% within a linear story, current Canon would mean that Star Trek would effectively be "more of the same", and the movie simply could not have introduced the fresh start Star Trek really needed.
I'd say there is a difference between Spock making a joke about ignoring Starfleet orders in TUC, and Spock being serious about killing someone for no other reason than revenge in Abramstrek.
Yes: the destruction of Vulcan, the death on one parent, and the admission from his father that he married his Mother because "he loved her", none of which occurred in TOS or the TOS movies.
Couple all this with the fact that Spock is much younger than in TOS, and less in control of his emotions, and thus is more volatile than in TOS.
number6
Vice Admiral
The larger picture was that Nero went back in time, altered history, destroyed the Kelvin, destroyed a klingon armada, threatened the very existance of the Federation, destroyed a planet and was now about to go through another black hole with the smallest possibility that he would survive again on the other side.
Ergo, for both personal AND logical viewpoints, his reasons for encouraging killing Nero were extremely strong.
And then there is the issue about what message is the movie or the scene transporting. That revenge is a good thing, so good that even the iconic character of Spock agrees with it? Clearly, the message of the old TOS episode was that it isn't a good thing.
Here's the thing, its not our, we the fans toybox, its Paramounts and sometimes I get the strong impression that the fans really don't like that arrangement.
And as I've said before, Nero forfeited his life the second Vulcan got sucked into that hole in space. Story wise it would have been anticlimactic and laughable if they "captured him to reform him" or whatever cotton candy coated punishment some Trekkies might have (badly) written.
It's not a "message" or "allegory" movie, and thus is saying nothing in this regard.
All I was saying is that if the producers wanted to move pieces around without feeling encumbered, that a reboot would be the easiest way to do it. As is, they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Not really, unless you purposely tie it to a long story arc. A good majority of Trek is episodic, and the basic premise of this movie could have been told in any Trek time period / setting.
Every story has a message. It doesn't have to be a "message movie" to have a message.
Incorrect. Every story can have some applicability.
Tell non-trek fans that before the movie. Ask them why they don't want to give Star Trek a try.
"I don't know. It's been goign for ever, and I'd feel lost without knowing the rest."
Star Trek, even at it's most episodic, has references, technologies and assumptions inherited from Canon.
We don't see them because we already know them. They are obvious to us. Transporters, Gorn, The Enterprise, Starfleet, The Maquis, Cardassians, Romulans.
Even if this is not literally true, it is often percieved as being the case.
By making this, in a way, an Origin Story, they can avoid the predictability of the future, provide something new and provide an entry point with no prior knowledge necessary.
That's for Non-fans, the uninitiated, the "General Audience".
The Alternate Reality was done such that they could keep us happy. So that it will be true to something that is important to us fans: continuity.
They actually figured out a way to have their cake and eat it.
Incorrect. Every story has a message and meaning.
