Salvaging "Sub Rosa"

[Zameaze]

I rather hate to admit it, but I almost liked "Sub Rosa".

With that embarrassing confession made, how would you have written it? From your perspective, what would you need to change in order to salvage the story and turn it into a great (or at least better) episode?

 

[Christopher]

Two things spring to mind:

1) Don't have Crusher kill Ronan. Doctors shouldn't kill. I have the same objection to the ending of "Suspicions."

2) Leave out that inexplicable thing about generations of Beverly's female ancestors somehow retaining the Howard surname rather than taking their husbands' surnames. I could buy that for a few recent generations, but certainly not stretching back to a time when it would not have been acceptable for a married woman to keep her own name (or for an unmarried woman to have children).

Other than that, I have no particular opinions about the episode.

 

[Zameaze]

Two things spring to mind:

....

2) Leave out that inexplicable thing about generations of Beverly's female ancestors somehow retaining the Howard surname rather than taking their husbands' surnames. I could buy that for a few recent generations, but certainly not stretching back to a time when it would not have been acceptable for a married woman to keep her own name (or for an unmarried woman to have children).

Good point. Feminists should have figured out, by then, that keeping their maiden name is still taking a man's name--their father's. The silliness certainly wouldn't continue that long.

 

[kythe]

It's also a little creepy that Crusher is so fascinated with her grandmother's love life, especially considering that this same "man" has been a lover to most of the women in her family. I would be disturbed - not happy - to find out something like that was going on in my family.

Though I admit, Roland is pretty good looking...

 

[Trekker4747]

How to salvage this episode:

Don't make episodes for Science-Fiction TV series set around 24th century interplanetary space-faring vessels by reading $4 grocery-store rommance novels.

 

[kythe]

Yes. Crusher really behaves in a way that is below her. She is a respected Chief Medical Officer on the Federation flagship. Clearly she is intelligent and capable in her career.

Yet she makes the same mistake many of the women on TOS do - she gives it all up for "love". She's willing to suddenly rearrange her life and leave everything she has worked for just to be with an energy being who has shown no remorse at harming her colleagues. Especially considering that she's not prone to flings, this really seems out of character for her.

 

[Christopher]

2) Leave out that inexplicable thing about generations of Beverly's female ancestors somehow retaining the Howard surname rather than taking their husbands' surnames. I could buy that for a few recent generations, but certainly not stretching back to a time when it would not have been acceptable for a married woman to keep her own name (or for an unmarried woman to have children).

Good point. Feminists should have figured out, by then, that keeping their maiden name is still taking a man's name--their father's. The silliness certainly wouldn't continue that long.

Okay, you've completely and utterly missed my point. I approve of feminism. I don't think it's silly to say that women should have the freedom to choose their own surname, regardless of its origins, and I think that women between now and the 24th century will surely be liberated enough to exercise that freedom if they so choose. The point is that the episode claimed that Beverly's female ancestors had somehow been clinging to the Howard name since the 1600s, which is historically implausible.

 

[Zameaze]

2) Leave out that inexplicable thing about generations of Beverly's female ancestors somehow retaining the Howard surname rather than taking their husbands' surnames. I could buy that for a few recent generations, but certainly not stretching back to a time when it would not have been acceptable for a married woman to keep her own name (or for an unmarried woman to have children).

Good point. Feminists should have figured out, by then, that keeping their maiden name is still taking a man's name--their father's. The silliness certainly wouldn't continue that long.

Okay, you've completely and utterly missed my point.

Sorry, Chris, I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth--I just have a different take on it than you do.

I approve of feminism.

Well, I don't really disapprove of it, I just think it's trifling.

I don't think it's silly to say that women should have the freedom to choose their own surname,

Women should certainly have the right to choose their own surname, and they do, in fact, have that right. Nonetheless, it’s rather disingenuous of them to follow tradition to the point of marrying a man, but then to say: No, this is where tradition stops--I don’t want your name.

regardless of its origins,

In the early days of the present feminist movement, the reason given for refusing to take the husband’s name was that women shouldn’t have to take a man’s name. Little did they realize that by keeping their name they still had a man’s name--their father’s.

and I think that women between now and the 24th century will surely be liberated enough to exercise that freedom if they so choose.

They don’t have to wait, nor do they have to be any more ’liberated’--they can choose here and now.

The point is that the episode claimed that Beverly's female ancestors had somehow been clinging to the Howard name since the 1600s, which is historically implausible.

I agree. See, we can agree on something, Chris.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I think its a good episode to bust out around Halloween. I put in on my B-list. I don't think it deserves the flak as this supposedly awful, worst-ever, episode.

As to the "Howard" points, I'm not so sure. If Celtic women had land and property rights, the right to divorce, etc., in even pre-Roman times, its not that huge a stretch of the imagination that these women would, for whatever reason, retain that name.
Now, to go almost a thousand years with the same family name - implausible, or not? If I can trace my current name back to the 1720's, then back to England - if the records survived there, it may easily go back another 700 years or so.

 

[Zameaze]

I think its a good episode to bust out around Halloween. I put in on my B-list. I don't think it deserves the flak as this supposedly awful, worst-ever, episode.

As to the "Howard" points, I'm not so sure. If Celtic women had land and property rights, the right to divorce, etc., in even pre-Roman times, its not that huge a stretch of the imagination that these women would, for whatever reason, retain that name.

Excellent point, Captain. In fact, if we make their society matrilineal, we can saved that part of the story which deals with the Howard name.

 

[LutherSloan]

Yes. Crusher really behaves in a way that is below her. She is a respected Chief Medical Officer on the Federation flagship. Clearly she is intelligent and capable in her career.

Yet she makes the same mistake many of the women on TOS do - she gives it all up for "love". She's willing to suddenly rearrange her life and leave everything she has worked for just to be with an energy being who has shown no remorse at harming her colleagues. Especially considering that she's not prone to flings, this really seems out of character for her.

How many times was Troi in this situation? She was much worse when it came to this.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Yes. Crusher really behaves in a way that is below her. She is a respected Chief Medical Officer on the Federation flagship. Clearly she is intelligent and capable in her career.

Yet she makes the same mistake many of the women on TOS do - she gives it all up for "love". She's willing to suddenly rearrange her life and leave everything she has worked for just to be with an energy being who has shown no remorse at harming her colleagues. Especially considering that she's not prone to flings, this really seems out of character for her.

How many times was Troi in this situation? She was much worse when it came to this.

That's a good critcism. But I didn't see it as Crusher giving in for "love", I saw it as, in geek terms, the equivalent of a high-level charm spell. The kind of beguilement that entities out of ancient myth were capable of.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

It's also a little creepy that Crusher is so fascinated with her grandmother's love life, especially considering that this same "man" has been a lover to most of the women in her family. I would be disturbed - not happy - to find out something like that was going on in my family.

Though I admit, Roland is pretty good looking...

His name was Roland? Okay that's all the reason you need to like him.

The Dark Tower awaits thee.

 

[Michael]

His name was Roland? Okay that's all the reason you need to like him.

Except that his name isn't Roland, though. It's Ronin.

I'm also one of the few people who not only don't hate this episode, but somewhat like it. And considering that Doctor Crusher is probably my least favorite 'character' from The Next Generation, that's really saying much.

 

[RoJoHen]

Yes. Crusher really behaves in a way that is below her. She is a respected Chief Medical Officer on the Federation flagship. Clearly she is intelligent and capable in her career.

Yet she makes the same mistake many of the women on TOS do - she gives it all up for "love". She's willing to suddenly rearrange her life and leave everything she has worked for just to be with an energy being who has shown no remorse at harming her colleagues. Especially considering that she's not prone to flings, this really seems out of character for her.

How many times was Troi in this situation? She was much worse when it came to this.

That's a good critcism. But I didn't see it as Crusher giving in for "love", I saw it as, in geek terms, the equivalent of a high-level charm spell. The kind of beguilement that entities out of ancient myth were capable of.

I agree. Granted, it's been a very long time since I've seen this episode, but I always thought Crusher was under some kind of enchantment. It certainly wasn't actual love.

 

[LutherSloan]

Frankly I wouldn't have made this episode at all. I don't see what it really brings to something like a Star Trek series. The plot seems like something better suited for a show like 'Supernatural'.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I don't think it is a bad episode in hindsight. At the time it aired in 94 it most certainly was very disappointing, however, with three subsequent Trek series that produced a lot worse I've come to soften my opinion.

It still isn't very good and isn't a solid episode but it does have a few elements that I like such as the gothic Irish atmosphere, the colony, Ronin, the mood of the episode, Troi/Beverly interactions.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Quint was the worst thing in the episode. Having a human in the 24th century run around being afraid of ghosts is just a hideously ridiculous stereotype.

 

[Trekker4747]

Didn't this episode have a scene of some goofilyh stereotypicaly acting Irishman horsing around in a sensor-room or something and getting shot by Worf? What did Trek writers have against Celtics? Between this episode, Up the Long Ladder and the :shudder: Fair Haven episodes I can't help but think they got all their knowledge of the Irish from Lucky Charms commercials.

How did O'Brien come out unscathed?

So, I mean' seriously, at some point a bunch of Irishmen set out on spaceships to settle colonies so they can all act like stereotypes of their race crica 18th century? The "Up The Long Ladder" folk settled on that planet hundreds of years ago and actualy seemed to have REGRESSED several centuries!

God. I've not a chromosonal scrap of Ireland in me and I find it offensive the way the Irish were treated in TNG (and in part Voyager.)

 

[CommanderRaytas]

His name was Roland? Okay that's all the reason you need to like him.

Except that his name isn't Roland, though. It's Ronin.

I'm also one of the few people who not only don't hate this episode, but somewhat like it. And considering that Doctor Crusher is probably my least favorite 'character' from The Next Generation, that's really saying much.

Awww, how disappointing. Alas! Roland, you'll have to stay in Stephen King's world, then, after all.

I'm with you regarding the evaluation of this ep though.... and Dr. Crusher, too.