Spoilers Saints of Imperfection and Gene's Vision

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...TNG (as much as I loved it) sort of suffered from this air of smug superiority where Picard was constantly lecturing aliens and insisting that the Federation (and humanity in particular) had evolved more than the rest of the Galaxy.

Well, the aliens-with-issues were supposed to represent our current society with its current social ills, and Picard and the Federation were supposed to represent an ideal that we humans might one day achieve...

...but yeah, Picard and the others just came off sounding like smug elitist jerks much of the time.

It would be like me proclaiming that my grandparents' generation often promoted racist attitudes while I, on the other hand, am enlightened and of superior morals.

 

[Pauln6]

Well, the aliens-with-issues were supposed to represent our current society with its current social ills, and Picard and the Federation were supposed to represent an ideal that we humans might one day achieve...

...but yeah, Picard and the others just came off sounding like smug elitist jerks much of the time.

It would be like me proclaiming that my grandparents' generation often promoted racist attitudes while I, on the other hand, am enlightened and of superior morals.

I think that too much emphasis on allegorical storytelling did make the Federation look preachy and hypocritical (the Orville stumbles into this trap a lot) but by the same token a complete aversion to allegories does leave behind a storytelling tool that, if used sparingly can be a really powerful tool.

 

[Cyrus]

When I saw the TNG episode “Conspiracy” I thought for sure they made it when Gene was out of town and he would call a press conference at any moment and disown it. But then I read an interview with the writer of that episode that said his script was rejected by the showrunner but then saved by Gene.

I don’t think anybody should talk about Gene’s vision except Gene, and he can’t do that anymore.

 

[Lord Garth]

When I saw the TNG episode “Conspiracy” I thought for sure they made it when Gene was out of town and he would call a press conference at any moment and disown it. But then I read an interview with the writer of that episode that said his script was rejected by the showrunner but then saved by Gene.

I don’t think anybody should talk about Gene’s vision except Gene, and he can’t fo that anymore.

At this point, I think Gene was really just pissed off that control of the movies was taken away from him. So trying to force his will on the writing staff of TNG was overcompensating to make sure no one would challenge him there. And, of course, he came armed with his lawyer who took things way too far. And then, later on, Rick Berman went too far in being a gatekeeper. It's easy to cling to what a dead man thinks because he'll never correct you and his stances will never change.

 

[Pauln6]

When I saw the TNG episode “Conspiracy” I thought for sure they made it when Gene was out of town and he would call a press conference at any moment and disown it. But then I read an interview with the writer of that episode that said his script was rejected by the showrunner but then saved by Gene.

I don’t think anybody should talk about Gene’s vision except Gene, and he can’t do that anymore.

I loved Conspiracy. An infiltrating enemy corrupting Federation ideals could have been a season long arc. I'm glad they kept the story even if it was too scary for the eighties and could never be revisited. Certain elements ended up being in DS9 of course.

 

[Noname Given]

I thought his vision was to make a lot of money and retire to an island filled with naked women.

True as to the first part, but as to the second, it was just a couch in his production office that many a young aspiring actress visited for awhile (naked and willing of course - or at least I hope so for GR's sake .)

 

[Noname Given]

When I saw the TNG episode “Conspiracy” I thought for sure they made it when Gene was out of town and he would call a press conference at any moment and disown it. But then I read an interview with the writer of that episode that said his script was rejected by the showrunner but then saved by Gene.

I don’t think anybody should talk about Gene’s vision except Gene, and he can’t do that anymore.

What I heard at a Convention from Maurice Hurley on a Panel about TNG S1 was that the ORIGINAL script had a cabal of Admirals who felt that the Federation was expanding too fast and allowing new alien members to easily, so they planned a coup of sorts.

When GR saw that he had a fit stating unequivocally that Starfleet would weed out these types of people and thus no one with those views would ever be promoted to the level of Admiral. the script was 'saved' by someone suggesting: "Hey what if it's aliens controlling the Admirals in an attempt to control the Federation?"
^^^
Thus the script was saved; the first 30 minutes or so (up to the destruction of the Horatio) was pretty much left as originally written. The last half was totally reworked to add the Bug Aliens and their "Mother".

 

[Agony_Boothb]

To be honest the ferengi were more gene's real vision than the federation ever was. Deep space nine and discovery are really the only two series where I found the characters relatable and 'human'. I can understand the need for section 31 and can see why they are deemed necessary. In fact I do think the federation needs an organisation like it. At least the realist in me does.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I'd like to reiterate @cultcross point. Yes, it's fun to make snarky comments about "Gene's Vision." I do it all the time. But that doesn't change the OP's original argument. Whether it was Roddenberry or Coon or DCF or Nimoy or Berman or Piller or the 1000s of people who've worked in the franchise over the years not named Ira Steven Behr, Star Trek has a clear conceit to its premise. And Section 31 has no business in it.

And no, there is no 'need' for it either. For the exact same reason there is no 'need' to show Batman killing the Joker.

 

[fireproof78]

To be honest the ferengi were more gene's real vision than the federation ever was. Deep space nine and discovery are really the only two series where I found the characters relatable and 'human'. I can understand the need for section 31 and can see why they are deemed necessary. In fact I do think the federation needs an organisation like it. At least the realist in me does.

I don't think they are necessary but I can see why, in universe, they would feel that they are necessary.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I thought his vision was to make a lot of money and retire to an island filled with naked women.

I thought it was to make it with a lot of women and retire to an island with filled with money.

 

[BillJ]

I don't think Section 31 nor its queen Empress Georgiou really have any place in Star Trek. But, what do I know?

 

[CorporalClegg]

You know nothing, Bill J.

 

[Pauln6]

I don't think Section 31 nor its queen Empress Georgiou really have any place in Star Trek. But, what do I know?

Section 31 certainly has a place as a plot device, as long as they remain fringe rather than the new normal. If they are fun, sassy, and smart like Black Widow's interrogation of Loki in Avengers then maybe I will learn to appreciate them. If, on the hand, they start torturing people as their first line of questioning, I think I will disapprove .

 

[fireproof78]

I never understand the feeling that we are supposed to approve of them. I always question Section 31, find their motivations highly questionable, and usually at odds with the Federation and Starfleet. That does not make them inappropriate for the world, in my opinion.

 

[Kor]

The organization literally names itself after a part of the Starfleet Charter authorizing the complete and total abandonment of any and all Starfleet regulations under emergencies. I don't think a moral compass is high on their priorities. At all.

I could be wrong, but I don't think we, the viewing audience, have ever actually been told the exact language in that section of the charter. They could be willfully twisting and misinterpreting it to justify what they do.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

I could be wrong, but I don't think we, the viewing audience, have ever actually been told the exact language in that section of the charter. They could be willfully twisting and misinterpreting it to justify what they do.

Kor

I have no doubts, at least to my mind.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think Section 31 nor its queen Empress Georgiou really have any place in Star Trek. But, what do I know?

In Star Trek or in Starfleet?
Star Trek is full of "bad" characters. Rogue captains and admirals, the misguided doing the wrong thing for the right reasons and folks just following orders. Often they are the darkness that allows our heroes to "shine".

 

[KennyB]

I thought his vision was to make a lot of money and retire to an island filled with naked women.

Also my vision.

 

[Cyrus]

What I heard at a Convention from Maurice Hurley on a Panel about TNG S1 was that the ORIGINAL script had a cabal of Admirals who felt that the Federation was expanding too fast and allowing new alien members to easily, so they planned a coup of sorts.

When GR saw that he had a fit stating unequivocally that Starfleet would weed out these types of people and thus no one with those views would ever be promoted to the level of Admiral. the script was 'saved' by someone suggesting: "Hey what if it's aliens controlling the Admirals in an attempt to control the Federation?"
^^^
Thus the script was saved; the first 30 minutes or so (up to the destruction of the Horatio) was pretty much left as originally written. The last half was totally reworked to add the Bug Aliens and their "Mother".

That was Hurley's version. I heard writer Tracy Torme's version. He proposed the idea about starfleet admirals but Gene didn't like that so he changed it to aliens and submitted his script. Showrunner Hurley rejected his script, so Torme went over his head and showed the script to Gene. Gene liked it and approved it. Of course this created tension between Torme and Hurley. His next 2 scripts ("The Royale" and “manhunt") were massively rewritten so Torme removed his name and used a pseudonym in the credits and then left the writing staff at the end of 2nd season, and so did Hurley.