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Saber Size vs Crew

Nova and Oberth are more like science vessels or survey ships. The Interpid-class is more a heavily armed scout. The phasers are supposedly as good as those on the Galaxy-class, and torpedoes seem to be more or less the same, just with less capacity for mass fire. Perhaps it was more an explorer designed to take on missions that would normally not be long term. The Galaxy-class, with its designed civilian population, would seem to be ideal for deep space long term exploration missions far from Federation space, or at minimum just not returning to a home port for many years at a time. The Intrepids would not intentionally be designed for such a long mission (even if Voyager found and accomplished such a mission).
 
What is a "scout"? There is no good real world counterpart to the concept. Navies of the sailing era did not have dedicated small lookout ships, because "small" meant both "slow" and "short range", with no exceptions. Navies with access to steam power conducted their scouting with cruisers, because installing of machinery sufficient for the "go ahead and look" task meant building a big ship, at which point there was no reason to leave the six-inch guns ashore. And then came aircraft and radar, and ships stopped this "looking" business altogether.

I guess all Starfleet ships are scouts by mission, regardless of size or design. We have one canon example of a scout: Data's small craft from ST:INS. Then we have one canon example of what might be mistaken for a scout: Esteban's Grissom from ST3:TSfS. Beyond that, we rather have to rely on backstage and fan stuff. And there anything from a shuttlecraft up to the cruiser-sized (if one-nacelled) Hermes or (tiny-nacelled) Intrepid can be a scout.

In reverse, if backstage sources say the Saber is a "light cruiser", what does this mean? The historical definition is "unarmored fighting vessel with guns at most six inches in caliber", which doesn't help us at all in the Trek context. Comparing with other light cruisers isn't particularly fruitful, either: the DS9 Tech Manual reference would pair Saber with the Constitution kitbash that lacks a secondary hull, even when the similarly sized Miranda is a "medium cruiser". The equipment balance is closer to the latter ship, too, as the Saber has shuttlebays...

I guess the bottom line is simply that everything is up to speculation at this point. Or at any future point, unless there's a nerd revolution in the making of new Star Trek movies and series.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Around the 1910s to 1920s there were scouting forces (mostly lightly armored cruisers and heavily armed battlecruisers early on, with fast destroyers and pre-Washington Treaty light cruisers being used in 1920) before the advent of the aircraft carrier, which was originally suppose to be part of the scouting forces as their airplanes increased the range of the fleet's "eyes". When it became clear that the bombers from a carrier could sink any ship, the ideas changed, and scouting became a task rather than a design job for a particular ship class.

Before the Washington Treaty, a light cruiser was a cruiser that was lightly armored compared to the armored cruisers (heavy belt armor) and protected cruisers (reasonable deck armor over vitals). A cruiser was a ship that could operate or "cruise" independently. Around 1910, a destroyer or "torpedo boat destroyer" could not operate independently for long cruises and needed to be near a base of operations or other ships that could resupply it with fuel and food. The cruiser had to be large enough to be able to cruise on its own. However, there can be a large variation in the size of a cruiser. Especially if you don't really use battleships or the like anymore. Therefore you'd start to subdivide the cruisers based on something you can measure. Be it powerplant, weapons sizes, equipment, shield capacity....something tangible.
 
One theme I have come across is that the big Exploration cruisers are resource intensive. (even if money is no longer in use) So you have a handful of Galaxy class ships. Which can't be everywhere.

So you end up building smaller to middling sized ships. That is, a fair number of the middling sized cruisers. A lot of the smaller ships-call them cutters.
 
I myself don't think that the Saber Class are Scout ship. I think they are Troop Assault Ships. They're small, their bay doors are at the bow. Their engineering hull is boat shape. And it look like there are large doors on the bottom of the ship that look like there could be landing gears being house there.
 
So you end up building smaller to middling sized ships. That is, a fair number of the middling sized cruisers. A lot of the smaller ships-call them cutters.

...And then comes Star Trek where the heroes basically only meet other large starships. But that's no doubt just an artifact of the smaller and more numerous vessels being incapable of operating in the depths of space where the heroes dwell.

Their engineering hull is boat shape.

...Which might make surface operations hell. You'd basically have to paradrop from the ship to make it down to the ground! Although

a) gravidrop might be a triviality for Starfleet ground troops - quite possibly they always wear flying harnesses anyway. Except when we see them, but they seem to have left behind all sorts of other useful gear in those cases, too.

b) many vessels and vehicles designed for delivering infantry to the battlefield in the real world were built with superstrong but featherweight nine-foot-tall midgets in mind; a limb-snapping drop would be but a standard feature.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yeah, I figure that the smaller vessels would seldom venture beyond the fringes of Federation space.

I can imagine the Sabers being used for border patrol, but they would be operating out of star bases.
 
What is a "scout"? There is no good real world counterpart to the concept. Navies of the sailing era did not have dedicated small lookout ships, because "small" meant both "slow" and "short range", with no exceptions. Navies with access to steam power conducted their scouting with cruisers, because installing of machinery sufficient for the "go ahead and look" task meant building a big ship, at which point there was no reason to leave the six-inch guns ashore. And then came aircraft and radar, and ships stopped this "looking" business altogether.

Timo Saloniemi

I see your logic, but not sure this is total true. Small sailing (with sails) vessels (like sloops) were actually fast and maneuverable. They were much lighter and had far less displacement. They were also harder to detect and harder to hit with a canon. This is why pirates favored them (some pirates at least). They were shorter range but could still do cross ocean travels (many of the ones sitting at the bottom of the gulf and eastern American shore were built in Europe). Since the crew is smaller you don't need as many provisions. Gun wise they *could* carry the same poundage as a larger vessel, but as you went up in shot pound the actual canon weight went up faster and that meant a heaver ship. Also, they couldn't carry as many canon.

Even now, a US Destroyer is much faster than a battleship and far more nimble. I was told a Destroyer can go from 20 not to full stop in 2 lengths or less. Not gonna happen with a Carrier. And you wouldn't send a carrier on a scouting mission.

I agree that there is no "scout class" in sea going navy. But I can see having a scout class ship in ST like they ones in Star Fleet Battles. Basically a ship that sacrifices armament for agility and speed. There are Corvette class ships in Navies...which make great scouts - as long as they don't get hit.

Just my thoughts.

EDIT: I guess one would have to define "small" in this context.
 
This is a very interesting thread and I am wondering if anyone has considered looking at the number of required manned stations?

Lets say a ship has 15 stations that *must* be manned at all times during normal operation. An additional 5 that are daily operations but not 24/7 stations. And 5 more that must be manned in full alert. And then a number of intermittenten stations (like cleaning and such)

So for doing capacity
The "must stations" require 3 shifts. So 45 people
The Dailies require 1 shift - so 5 people
and the full alerts require 5 extra available people at all times - so 5 people.
Then overhead for sickness and casuality...say 15% - another 8 people

That's just under 65 crew with a skeleton crew of maybe 25.

Anyone looked at that?
 
As a stop gap the Mark II Sabers strike me as a good idea. A way to rapidly bolster defenses. The Defiant project would probably seem a good idea at the time, because the small size might allow rapid production. The Sovereign? Promising in terms of quality, but not in terms of rapid production (too little, too late?). In other threads the Prometheus has been described as impractical-but MVAM was a sexy idea, so they built it anyway.

I figure that it would be the Mark II Sabers that would keep a depleted Star Fleet afloat-providing the numbers needed for an adequate defense. I think that the Saber would, in effect, become a post war replacement of the Miranda/Soyuz ships.

As for larger vesses, I doubt we would see much production in the immediate aftermath. Because the ship yards would be full of ships with battle damage.
 
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EDIT: I guess one would have to define "small" in this context.
The thing is, one wouldn't have to.

Small is a relative measurement with absolute consequences. If you have a short waterline, your ship will move more slowly than a similar ship with a longer waterline for the same amount of sail or engine power. A small ship may be more nimble than a large one, but it won't be faster - not unless it has more power moving it. The Interceptor won't beat the Duchess or the Black Pearl in a chase unless she steers to shallows where the bigger ship can't follow. Similarly, a battleship or a carrier has it much easier doing 30 knots than a destroyer, relatively speaking - it's just that destroyers are worth building in a fashion that allows them to struggle up to those speeds and perform their mission, efficiency be damned. To get around this, one has to build things radically different from traditional ships (modern powerboats don't sail through water, but climb to the crest of their own bow wave and glide down that one - a feat impossible for sailing ships and, for the WWII context, anything bigger than a torpedo boat).

Whether anything of the sort applies to warp-capable starships and starcraft, we don't know. Shuttles are generally quoted to be slow, and the giant Enterprise-D is the fastest thing around in TNG, but we might be missing crucial evidence there, and we have no access to the underlying physics.

Timo Saloniemi
 
EDIT: I guess one would have to define "small" in this context.
The thing is, one wouldn't have to.

Small is a relative measurement with absolute consequences. If you have a short waterline, your ship will move more slowly than a similar ship with a longer waterline for the same amount of sail or engine power.

A small ship may be more nimble than a large one, but it won't be faster - not unless it has more power moving it. The Interceptor won't beat the Duchess or the Black Pearl in a chase unless she steers to shallows where the bigger ship can't follow. Similarly, a battleship or a carrier has it much easier doing 30 knots than a destroyer, relatively speaking - it's just that destroyers are worth building in a fashion that allows them to struggle up to those speeds and perform their mission, efficiency be damned. To get around this, one has to build things radically different from traditional ships (modern powerboats don't sail through water, but climb to the crest of their own bow wave and glide down that one - a feat impossible for sailing ships and, for the WWII context, anything bigger than a torpedo boat).
Well, no. Shorter water line and less displacement means less drag. And smaller means less mass. Given two ships with the same power, the smaller one will be faster. Now a modern carrier can reach 30 knots...and a destroyer can reach 35. Close enough to argue about tech - but an empirical measure that disagrees with you.

"Size" is not the issue. Mass, drag, and power are.
Whether anything of the sort applies to warp-capable starships and starcraft, we don't know. Shuttles are generally quoted to be slow, and the giant Enterprise-D is the fastest thing around in TNG, but we might be missing crucial evidence there, and we have no access to the underlying physics.
And here is where I said you have to define small. At some point a vessels is so small you can't fit the power in it and have it remain viable. A dingy is slower than a carrier. But a craft boat is faster than both (at ~20 feet).

If bigger was the only requirement for faster our ships would be a mile long by now.

You have many examples to choose from that contradict your posit.
 
Shorter water line and less displacement means less drag.
That's what one might think - but in fact hydrodynamics work differently, reducing relative "drag" (not through friction, but through wave formation) when waterline length increases. That an increase in what one might more properly call drag (skin friction) also takes place when there's more steel against water is not quite as significant - wave formation concerns already dictate a maximum "hull speed" beyond which either trickery or lots of brute force is needed.

For sailing ships, neither trickery like planing nor brute force ever was an option, giving long ships a decisive advantage over short ones. For machine propulsion, hull speed is something you can circumvent: speedboats do it by planing, but destroyers use brute force, having lots more of it per displacement (or per waterline meters) than big carriers, battleships or tanker or container behemoths do. And then you can have unconventional hull forms that directly affect wave formation - but no warships of note utilize those today, although some so far less than satisfactory USN experiments are ongoing.

Whether tinkering with waterline also affects your displacement is a separate issue altogether. And an increase in displacement may well increase the absolute effort your machinery has to make (but not through drag as such). The thing here is, the relative considerations together favor big hulls over small ones: to increase the speed of your WWII battleship, you'd much rather insert a few extra meters of length than increase your output power. That's why the Royal Navy, a bastion of silly tradition if there ever was one, finally opted for "transom" or truncated sterns for their battleships, essentially extending the sides of the ship maximally far for given displacement rather than hanging any of that displacement (read: displacement-creating mass) uselessly above the water. Steel underwater simply gave better performance than steel in the air.

Of course, many other factors also favor big over small when it comes to those warships or transports that end up being big in the real world: a small carrier or a small battleship fights poorly, and a small container ship, tanker or car carrier brings in less money. Things get muddier when a navy actually wants to keep some of its ships small, despite this costing them dearly in terms of speed (read: ease at which speed is achieved). But all modern destroyers are well past the threshold size for 30-knot dash performance (even when hull speed would keep them cruising at more like 15 knots - you need to go nuclear to dash all the time!), and few navies have any interest in anything substantially faster than that. (OTOH, few navies have any interest in fast frigates or corvettes, there surprisingly being minimal effort to circumvent the hull speed limitation in that category of ships.)

And here is where I said you have to define small. At some point a vessels is so small you can't fit the power in it and have it remain viable. A dingy is slower than a carrier. But a craft boat is faster than both (at ~20 feet).
We know the real-world rules by which these three types of seafarer are governed (different rules for all three, really). The interesting thing is, what sort of rules govern warp flight? Or impulse flight, assuming it's not a simple Newtonian business?

On the seas, big is not the only requirement for fast. But big is the most important requirement for fast when you aspire to be big to begin with - only small craft have other options to choose from. It's an intriguingly counterintuitive situation, and something similar might be at play in Trek, too.

Or then not, but so far big starships have always been faster than small ones, and no small craft have been able to match speeds with bigger ones from the same cultural context ("advanced small" against "primitive large" is a different issue) without resorting to things that amaze our heroes: suicidal power allocation, say.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Ok....I can see some of this. "Longer" not necessarily "larger". High aspect ratio hulls will be faster. A narrow vessel will be faster than a wide one.

I can also see that, if you take two identical vessels, shrink one to half the size, keep the power to mass ratios the same on both (lower the one on the smaller boat), you may end up with the larger vessel being faster and the small have more agility and faster acceleration, but lower final speed. So, yes, if you eliminate every other variable.

But there is the same question you pose. How does that translate to space and "warp" drive? Are there any examples of corvettes in ST?
 
There is the difference between small craft (warp 4 is the highest speed quoted for a shuttlecraft, the unseen Type 9 in VOY "Resolutions", and warp 5 appeared to be too much for the poor runabouts in early DS9) and full starships. But the Dominion War shows all types and sizes of starship operating in the same massive formation, even in operations where it would seem sensible for part of the forces to move at great speed and leave slower ships behind...

Saber, Defiant and Miranda are certainly significantly smaller than the Galaxy or related kitbashes, or even the Excelsior, Akira and comparable designs. And then there's the age difference to consider, especially the fact that there are so many visually distinct warp nacelles, some of them quite ancient. When Kirk's ship was refitted in TMP, the engines visually changed. Wouldn't a significantly propulsion-boosting refit always involve a visual change in the engines? (Sure, in DS9, certain engines exhibit "standard", "modern" blue glow they did not yet have in the TOS movie era, but the external shape is still the same.)

Not only is there a lack of evidence for different (sustainable) speeds, there seems to be no real agility difference there, either. Both the Defiant and the Enterprise can do barrel rolls and turn on a dime if needed. Might have to do with the apparent mastery of inertia...

Lots of room for speculation there. And lots of options if future evidence begins to look weird. The weirder, the better, in light of how complex the reality here on Earth and its oceans is!

Timo Saloniemi
 
There is the difference between small craft (warp 4 is the highest speed quoted for a shuttlecraft, the unseen Type 9 in VOY "Resolutions", and warp 5 appeared to be too much for the poor runabouts in early DS9) and full starships. But the Dominion War shows all types and sizes of starship operating in the same massive formation, even in operations where it would seem sensible for part of the forces to move at great speed and leave slower ships behind...

If you are talking about it battle, that typically takes place sub-warp does it not? That is a different ball game. My impression (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken) is that at sub-warp the warp system provides power, not propulsion. The Kelvin seems to do both - but outside of that... So, now you have inertia to really deal with. So small vessels might be quicker. Fighters are generally quicker than the carrier right?
Saber, Defiant and Miranda are certainly significantly smaller than the Galaxy or related kitbashes, or even the Excelsior, Akira and comparable designs. And then there's the age difference to consider, especially the fact that there are so many visually distinct warp nacelles, some of them quite ancient.

Yeah - there is also purpose of the class. Freighters are generally large, but not fast - this is true I think in ST. In old sailing ships, very large vessels were often wide because there were difficulties with makeing very long ships, shallow displacement (from being wider and flatter) was more stable and allowed sailing in shallower waters with heavy loads. But it made them slower.

When Kirk's ship was refitted in TMP, the engines visually changed. Wouldn't a significantly propulsion-boosting refit always involve a visual change in the engines?

Maybe, or maybe not. And different designs don't have to mean different overall performance. ST ships were put out for bid IIRC (or did my head make that up?). I could see different entities making different deisngs. Just like now.

Not only is there a lack of evidence for different (sustainable) speeds, there seems to be no real agility difference there, either. Both the Defiant and the Enterprise can do barrel rolls and turn on a dime if needed. Might have to do with the apparent mastery of inertia...

What is an example (outside of fan fiction) of the Enterprise doing a quick barrel roll? In space, any ship can do a roll - but only in fan fiction have I seen the Enterprise as "agile" - and it's very unbelievable.
 
If you are talking about it battle, that typically takes place sub-warp does it not? That is a different ball game. My impression (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken) is that at sub-warp the warp system provides power, not propulsion. The Kelvin seems to do both - but outside of that... So, now you have inertia to really deal with. So small vessels might be quicker. Fighters are generally quicker than the carrier right?
I was talking about the concept of "fleet speed", the speed at which a formation of ships is forced to crawl from A to B so that the slowest ships aren't left behind. When striking a surprise blow against Dominion shipyards, it should make sense not to take along any ships that have lower warp speed than the modern average.

As for impulse movement, negation of inertia appears to be a big thing there, too - otherwise no rocket could move the big starships. Are fighters really quicker than carriers? We don't see this in the DS9 battles, where a Saber moves through the enemy formations at least as nimbly and fast as a fightercraft.

Freighters are generally large, but not fast - this is true I think in ST.
The curious thing is, we never saw a large freighter in the 23rd or 24th centuries. Freighters bigger than combat ships were an exclusively ENT thing.

OTOH, Kasidy Yates' little Xhosa was touring multiple star systems in mere hours in "For the Cause", and the Xepolites in "The Siege" had freighters capable of outrunning not just Sisko's runabout but apparently Janeway's starship as well. The commercial demand seems to be for small and fast ships capable of delivering high-value goods, then. Or then there are parallel bulk transports (we do hear of ore being moved) that we simply never get to see because they are so uninteresting (and probably uncrewed as well).

What is an example (outside of fan fiction) of the Enterprise doing a quick barrel roll? In space, any ship can do a roll - but only in fan fiction have I seen the Enterprise as "agile" - and it's very unbelievable.
We see rolls in "Paradise Lost" and "All Good Things...". One is by a smallish ship, the other by the largest design known. The rate of roll is about the same. technically, neither is a "barrel" roll, but those shouldn't exist absent wings anyway.

Roll is a thing that should be about as independent of outside factors as any: it's all about fighting the ship's inherent inertia. It would be hellishly difficult to roll the expansive ISS as compared to the compact Dragon capsule, say, due to the physics involved - but Trek can sidestep the physics via inertia damping, which must be capable of countering rotational as well as translational accelerations.

In real-world terms, even without inertia control, a gigantic F-18 or Su-27 is more agile than a smallish MB-326: the extra engine power makes all the difference. It should matter even more in space where aerodynamics are no factor, and the power-to-mass ratio should rule everything.

In Trek terms, Kirk feels his starship is agile, capable of "pivoting" at warp 2 in "Elaan of Troyius", and indeed dependent on this agility in conventional fights.

Timo Saloniemi
 
This is a very interesting thread and I am wondering if anyone has considered looking at the number of required manned stations?

{snip}
Yes. See topic under Fan Fiction titled "Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comments?"
 
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