Are there any good Saavik novels anyone might recommend?
I like Spock-centric novels too.
- Ib
I like Spock-centric novels too.
- Ib
Saavik novels?
- Thread starter ireactions
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There is always the Vulcan's Forge/Heart/Soul series. Primarily Spock-centric, with a lot of development of Saavik and the relationship between them.
There is a Saavik-centric novel coming out sometime next year by Margaret Wander-Bonnano aka Garamet here on the board.
There is a Saavik-centric novel coming out sometime next year by Margaret Wander-Bonnano aka Garamet here on the board.
One of the Myriad Universe books...Echoes and Refractions has a story that takes a twist on how things happened with Saavik after Star Trek 2....It was not the way i had expected things to go
I'd also recommend the novelizations of ST II and III if you've never read them! Lots of Saavik goodness there!
Especially for everyone primarily interested in the Saavik back story it was one. The overall plot of the novel was average in my opinion, but for the Saavik parts alone it is worth a read.
Thanks for the recommendations!
I don't suppose any stories even attempt to explain Saavik's stronger emotional control in "Star Trek III" or why her eyebrows changed or why she remained on Vulcan in "Star Trek IV"?
It seems most writers handling Saavik choose to ignore the fully Vulcan version of Saavik in the third film, and commit wholly to her original backstory as a Vulcan/Romulan. The novelization of "Star Trek III" contains the same character we we met in "Star Trek II" instead of the strange imposter in the third film.
- Ibrahim Ng
I don't suppose any stories even attempt to explain Saavik's stronger emotional control in "Star Trek III" or why her eyebrows changed or why she remained on Vulcan in "Star Trek IV"?
It seems most writers handling Saavik choose to ignore the fully Vulcan version of Saavik in the third film, and commit wholly to her original backstory as a Vulcan/Romulan. The novelization of "Star Trek III" contains the same character we we met in "Star Trek II" instead of the strange imposter in the third film.
- Ibrahim Ng
Funny you should ask that! In the first run of DC Comics post-ST II stories, they had to set up the action for ST III. The Kirstie Alley Saavik goes through pon farr (our first inkling that female Vulcans did so) in "The Origin of Saavik" two-parter, and they actually change the angle of her eyebrows very slowly over the two issues. The next comic in the sequence was ST III, where she resembles Robin Curtis. Even though they go back to an Alley-version Saavik hairstyle in subsequent issues, the eyebrows remain slanted in the Vulcan fashion for the rest of the run.
The ST IV script has Kirk saying he understands her decision to remain behind "in your condition". ie. inferring that Saavik was pregnant. (Of course she may have been intimate with David Marcus - see the novelizations of ST II and III - or when she helped young Spock go through pon farr in movie III.
The ST novelization doesn't infer pregnancy, though.
Is it in "Crucible: Spock" where it mentions Saavik electing to stay behind with Amanda for other reasons?
I list the Saavik novels mentioned here plus others on this web page. I haven't listed the Mirror Universe Part II book yet, but I just got it for Christmas and will be listing it soon. I thought you might like to check that out in your search.
The eyebrows in II were a mistake; they never should have been there, genetically they are impossible, so it's actually a correction. They changed the angle of them for IV since Saavik was the first Vulcanoid female that they wanted to show some softness, and the previously used angles, like in III, are too harsh. This makeup change would be used throughout the rest of Trek (T'Pol barely has any angle at all). So while it's a change, it's attempting to fix something that was wrong, so that makes it hard to explain in a story how someone screwed up before. Put it down to a "James R. Kirk" thing.
Some novels, like the Vulcan's Heart and Soul series, explain her increase emotional control as a combination of a reaction to Spock's death, an evolution of increased maturity, and an increased responsibility: no longer the cadet, but an officer in charge of a science station on an important mission for Starfleet and the Federation. She was, after all, the only trainee officer at a senior station NOT replaced by a veteran during Khan's attacks.
Like Therin said, originally Kirk said it was for "your condition". In fact, during filming, the shot of Saavik and Amanda together was referred to as the "in-law shot". It's also when Saavik gives him her deposition to take to Earth; she is the only Genesis survivor who can accurately say what happened on the planet (which shows she really should have been at the trial). Also, she's in Kirk's dream sequence, when the "silver heads" appear, she's the last one he remembers before he wakes up.
When that scene with the "your condition", as well as her deposition and her "silver head" was removed (although filmed; you can hear Nimoy and Shatner discuss it in their commentary on the DVD), the movie novelization made it that Amanda requested her transfer to Vulcan, although not why Amanda wanted it. Margaret Wander-Bonnano's new book, currently titled "Unspoken Truth", deals with Saavik during that time of ST IV and after, so we'll see what she does with that time!
There is no "fully Vulcan version of Saavik" in ST III. Roddenberry, (and Paramount) approved of the half-Romulan background, including a general backstory that she was on an abandoned colony and Spock was one of those who rescued her, then later sponsered her for the Academy. Because it's now the approved background, novels have to include it for Saavik books. It was going to be filmed for III, but they didn't find a way to fit it smoothly in the story. But Nimoy, once he had a little time in the schedule, went back to re-do some scenes, such as Saavik freezing -- even her breathing hitches -- when Spock touches her (going back to the same freezing and hitched breath when she watches Spock fall down 'dead' in the Kobayashi Maru). But he wanted a stronger control in the character, even with a half-Romulan character; it's a director's choice. The pon farr scene is also his baby; you can hear his and Robin's commentary on all this on the ST III DVD.
Ironically, it was Nicholas Meyers, not Nimoy, who said in an interview shortly before the movie was put on TV that Saavik was fully Vulcan, and someone "stupid" came up with those lines saying she was half-Romulan. He said he considered an insult to say his direction of Saavik or Kirstie Alley's portrayal was anything but fully Vulcan, that there was nothing not Vulcan about her. So he removed the scene where they say she's half-Romulan. He was vehemently against any deleted scenes being put back or any future reference to her being half-Romulan ever made. This conflicts with his latest interviews where he now takes credit for the whole script (ignoring the timetable that "The Making of ST II" documents), so that means the "stupid" person who wrote those half-Romulan lines would be him. LOL!
The eyebrows in II were a mistake; they never should have been there, genetically they are impossible, so it's actually a correction. They changed the angle of them for IV since Saavik was the first Vulcanoid female that they wanted to show some softness, and the previously used angles, like in III, are too harsh. This makeup change would be used throughout the rest of Trek (T'Pol barely has any angle at all). So while it's a change, it's attempting to fix something that was wrong, so that makes it hard to explain in a story how someone screwed up before. Put it down to a "James R. Kirk" thing.
Some novels, like the Vulcan's Heart and Soul series, explain her increase emotional control as a combination of a reaction to Spock's death, an evolution of increased maturity, and an increased responsibility: no longer the cadet, but an officer in charge of a science station on an important mission for Starfleet and the Federation. She was, after all, the only trainee officer at a senior station NOT replaced by a veteran during Khan's attacks.
Like Therin said, originally Kirk said it was for "your condition". In fact, during filming, the shot of Saavik and Amanda together was referred to as the "in-law shot". It's also when Saavik gives him her deposition to take to Earth; she is the only Genesis survivor who can accurately say what happened on the planet (which shows she really should have been at the trial). Also, she's in Kirk's dream sequence, when the "silver heads" appear, she's the last one he remembers before he wakes up.
When that scene with the "your condition", as well as her deposition and her "silver head" was removed (although filmed; you can hear Nimoy and Shatner discuss it in their commentary on the DVD), the movie novelization made it that Amanda requested her transfer to Vulcan, although not why Amanda wanted it. Margaret Wander-Bonnano's new book, currently titled "Unspoken Truth", deals with Saavik during that time of ST IV and after, so we'll see what she does with that time!
There is no "fully Vulcan version of Saavik" in ST III. Roddenberry, (and Paramount) approved of the half-Romulan background, including a general backstory that she was on an abandoned colony and Spock was one of those who rescued her, then later sponsered her for the Academy. Because it's now the approved background, novels have to include it for Saavik books. It was going to be filmed for III, but they didn't find a way to fit it smoothly in the story. But Nimoy, once he had a little time in the schedule, went back to re-do some scenes, such as Saavik freezing -- even her breathing hitches -- when Spock touches her (going back to the same freezing and hitched breath when she watches Spock fall down 'dead' in the Kobayashi Maru). But he wanted a stronger control in the character, even with a half-Romulan character; it's a director's choice. The pon farr scene is also his baby; you can hear his and Robin's commentary on all this on the ST III DVD.
Ironically, it was Nicholas Meyers, not Nimoy, who said in an interview shortly before the movie was put on TV that Saavik was fully Vulcan, and someone "stupid" came up with those lines saying she was half-Romulan. He said he considered an insult to say his direction of Saavik or Kirstie Alley's portrayal was anything but fully Vulcan, that there was nothing not Vulcan about her. So he removed the scene where they say she's half-Romulan. He was vehemently against any deleted scenes being put back or any future reference to her being half-Romulan ever made. This conflicts with his latest interviews where he now takes credit for the whole script (ignoring the timetable that "The Making of ST II" documents), so that means the "stupid" person who wrote those half-Romulan lines would be him. LOL!
Anomalous, perhaps, but it's an exaggeration to call them genetically impossible. Genes can do all sorts of weird things, and epigenetic factors can muddle things even further.
Back in high school, there was this girl I sometimes saw on the bus who had remarkably straight eyebrows and ears that tapered ever so slightly at the top. She looked a bit like a young Robin Curtis, so I liked to imagine she was 1/8 Romulan or something. She just had kind of a Romulan look to her, or so it seemed to me (though not a TNG Romulan look, thankfully). So if a human can have straight eyebrows and almost-pointed ears, surely it's within the realm of possibility for a Vulcan to have rounded eyebrows and green eyes.
No way is that the real cover, since it's too Photoshopped and the shape is wrong... some kind of fan mockup?
Uhh, no. The novels don't "have to" include anything that isn't actually onscreen. Whether Roddenberry approved it or not is irrelevant, because he died 17 years ago and his policies are no longer binding (as evidenced by the fact that the novels routinely do things that were forbidden under his guidelines, such as having internovel continuity, focusing on non-screen characters, creating new backstory for screen characters, including elements from the animated series, etc.) Besides, everything in the novels has to be approved by Paramount (and had to be approved by Roddenberry's office when he was alive), yet the novels certainly weren't required to acknowledge each other's claims; in fact, Roddenberry himself explicitly forbade such acknowledgments while he was alive.
Most authors writing about Saavik have chosen to elaborate on the backstory Vonda McIntyre created for her in the TWOK & TSFS novelizations, out of respect and appreciation for her work, and, I suppose, because nobody ever said they couldn't or offered an alternative. But there have been several different versions of Saavik's backstory, keeping the basics McIntyre established but filling in the details differently (for instance, whether Spock took a leave of absence to raise her as in The Pandora Principle or left her with Sarek and Amanda as in the DC Comics and Vulcan's Heart versions). So it's not a case of everyone being required to conform to something.
Ironically, it was Nicholas Meyers, not Nimoy, who said in an interview shortly before the movie was put on TV that Saavik was fully Vulcan, and someone "stupid" came up with those lines saying she was half-Romulan. He said he considered an insult to say his direction of Saavik or Kirstie Alley's portrayal was anything but fully Vulcan, that there was nothing not Vulcan about her. So he removed the scene where they say she's half-Romulan. He was vehemently against any deleted scenes being put back or any future reference to her being half-Romulan ever made. This conflicts with his latest interviews where he now takes credit for the whole script (ignoring the timetable that "The Making of ST II" documents), so that means the "stupid" person who wrote those half-Romulan lines would be him. LOL!
Well, to be fair, it is rather illogical to say "She's half-Romulan, therefore she has less emotional control," which I believe was the gist of the deleted scenes. That's as illogical as blaming Spock's emotionality on his human half. What's being overlooked in both cases is that the reason Vulcans embrace logic is because their innate emotions are exceedingly intense, so much so that they have to learn rigorous control in order to survive as a civilization. Also, Romulans and Vulcans are just different "breeds" within the same species, so there shouldn't be any fundamental genetic difference in their psychology. Vulcan emotional control is cultural, not biological. If Saavik is more emotional than a typical Vulcan, it's because of her upbringing, not her genes. It really shouldn't have anything to do with whether she's half-Romulan or not.
It was a choice, though. Kirstie Alley's natural eyebrows have a very unusual shape to them.
You're correct that the scriptwriters probably didn't know what a Romulan was, ie. that they looked so much like Vulcans. There is a stage description in the script that mentions that Saavik's "face is fair and she has none of the expressionless facial immobility of a Vulcan".
Inspired by Alley's Saavik perhaps? Certainly, they had little angle in Season One.
Maybe Vulcans have very hairy brows, and subtle slants are a pluckfest fashion statement?
I have no recall of that. The early pages of the final shooting script have numerous mentions of Saavik's mixed heritage in the stage directions, even versions without the "half-Romulan" reference in the dialogue.
It's my recollection that Nimoy revised Saavik to act fully Vulcan in ST III.
I never knew that, I've never seen a MWB book I didn't like.
Exactly! This has always been one of those things in fandom that bugs the crap out of me.
My take, the "half-romulan" dialogue not being on-screen, has been that Saavik was just being a young vulcan. She's still learning the whole "controlling your emotions thing". Look at Spock in The Cage. Certainly not the cool, collected vulcan we saw in later years, is he?
In Star Trek's science for Vulcans, yes it is. Vulcanoids do not have rounded eyebrows; while, like you said, they can certainly have more straight eyebrows -- T'Pol is a perfect example of that -- they do not get a rounded shape, anymore than the person you named had winged eyebrows and fully pointed ears. A person would have to have a mutation factor to change the basic structure of the gene that far. While animal species on this planet have been changed through mutation factors, humans having fully pointed ears and winged/slanted eyebrows is not part of them. Star Trek takes that genetics rule and applies it for Vulcanoids as well as humanoids, adding the fact that mixed species of different planets are able to have children. For a Vulcan or Romulan to have a fully rounded eyebrow, they'd have to have genes from a species that does. But such a gene would be recessive with the Vulcanoid gene being dominant, hence Spock's genetics -- inheriting one gene from each species, the dominant gene sets his biology including features, telling us that in his gene that's D-r, Vulcan gene becomes dominant and the human gene recessive. (By the way, D-r is how we were taught in college to show a Dominant and recessive gene combination; I believe they now teach it as D-x or X-x.) So both parents would have to carry the recessive gene in a D-r combination, passing down the double rr (or xx) gene to the child. Like you said, the girl on the bus would be 1/8 Romulan, not half Romulan and half Vulcan. So Saavik, if she's Vulcan-Romulan, had rounded eyebrows, she'd have to have one parent who is Vulcan-humanoid and the other parent be Romulan-humanoid, but she's not; or she'd have to have had a mutation factor -- deliberate or accidental, which is also never stated.
And I never said she couldn't have green eyes; Nimoy and others in Trek broke away from the one type Vulcan, including in ST III.
Sorry, I copied and pasted the name and meant to take out the link. No cover art has been released from that book, and the link does say it's a fan piece.
Uhh, yes.
They have to include it if Paramount has established that's the way it is, whether based on it originally being part of something Roddenberry wanted or because they decided it themselves. That's why I added that part about Paramount agreeing with Roddenberry. Saavik's background is one example; I've spoken to authors and yeah, that's what they're told to use. They're told at least one other mandate for the Saavik character (the one given in articles for Vulcan's Heart). Another example is Roddenberry saying that Picard's line about attending Sarek's son's wedding meant Spock's wedding; Paramount agreed to that, putting in a line in Unification to back it up. Of course, they can change and have changed their minds, or thrown out things Roddenbery wanted. Or allowed conflicting canon, at which point, they tell an author what they're supposed to use.quote]Well, to be fair, it is rather illogical to say "She's half-Romulan, therefore she has less emotional control,"[/quote]
I think so too. (It's also illogical of Meyers to say that Saavik didn't do anything that wasn't Vulcan in ST II.) Vulcans have powerful emotions that they must control, but ST:TNG also said Romulans were even more volatile than humans or Vulcans, so I guess this was the beginning of their development. I still think it'd be her formative years spent so violently, and her not having the benefit of the schooling she'd have had otherwise to learn control that would cause a difference.
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