S5E22 'Children of Time' - This is why I can't stand time travel-bs

[JamesBondJR]

I re-watched this yesterday. Sorry to say, but I was very disappointed.

Here's why: I've mentioned many times before that I have a problem with time-travel episodes, because they are cheap plot devices to concoct whatever story you like without any regard to what has already been established. They never make any sense and work differently in every episode.

So, they all become convinced that if the stranded crew doesn't re-do the accident, the colony will cease to exist; why? They did exist simultaneously for 200 years without any problem, why can't they continue to do so? And with the same logic, if they didn't manage to escape wouldn't they just reboot the whole time sequence, still causing everybody to disappear, effectively creating a time loop? Or are they supposed to build a parallel, duplicate colony to the one that already exists?

The story is extremely poorly thought out if you scrutinize it even the slightest. Which is almost always the case with these type of scenarios. Of course there is something called suspend of disbelief, but that only works if the rest of the picture contains elements of very high quality. In Star Trek IV they get a free pass, in Voyagers finale as well, in DS9's „The Visitor“ etc,. But here ... The characters you love and respect only come off as stupid.

The main thing they manage to do is to deepen the relationship between Odo and Kira; however I fail to see how they couldn't have done it any other way. The only thing this episode really has going for it is Bashirs banter with O'Brien, which is stellar enough to put it in the 'maybe'-bin for a potential re-watch.

 

[Tosk]

They did exist simultaneously for 200 years without any problem, why can't they continue to do so?

Because if the crew don't go back in time, the descendants can't exist. As you said, time travel works differently depending on the episode and in this one they need to complete the loop or it all falls apart.

But I'm not trying to convince you to like the episode. We all have different tastes.

 

[JamesBondJR]

Because if the crew don't go back in time, the descendants can't exist. As you said, time travel works differently depending on the episode and in this one they need to complete the loop or it all falls apart.

But I'm not trying to convince you to like the episode. We all have different tastes.

But why couldn't they exist? Plus, as I mentioned: With the same logic, if they didn't manage to escape wouldn't they just reboot the whole time sequence, still causing everybody to disappear, effectively creating a time loop? Or are they supposed to build a parallel, duplicate colony to the one that already exists?

 

[ananta]

This is one of my favourite episodes and I found the storyline made sense, with a perfect, classic Trekkian moral dilemma. I don’t really understand your objection, to be honest. Maybe you’re overthinking it? If you overthink virtually anything in Star Trek it falls apart.

 

[Tosk]

But why couldn't they exist? Plus, as I mentioned: With the same logic, if they didn't manage to escape wouldn't they just reboot the whole time sequence, still causing everybody to disappear, effectively creating a time loop? Or are they supposed to build a parallel, duplicate colony to the one that already exists?

I don't understand your question. If they go back in time, it's to before the colony existed. That's the whole point. They originate the colony that they have just visited.

 

[JamesBondJR]

I don't understand your question. If they go back in time, it's to before the colony existed. That's the whole point. They originate the colony that they have just visited.

In which case, they would just loop the colony story 'til their future incarnations return and reboot it ad infinitum. The story of the colony would therefore just exist the same way 200 years, every time. It would never have a future.

Anyway, my point should be clear from the original post. If you like it I don't blame you, but to me it's insulting to intelligence as well as the characters.

 

[Tosk]

In which case, they would just loop the colony story 'til their future incarnations return and reboot it ad infinitum. The story of the colony would therefore just exist the same way 200 years, every time. It would never have a future.

The don't reboot it, they just begin it. If the crew went back in time like they were "supposed to" the colony doesn't disappear at the moment the crew leaves, they continue to live on for as long as they can support themselves. They only disappear because the crew did not go back.

 

[Jetboogieman]

I tend to believe it's not a good idea to get too worked up about time travel and mirror universe episodes.

They do completely break continuity and raise too many questions to answer.

You gotta take them as their own thing and just roll with it.

 

[Tuskin38]

But why couldn't they exist?

Because the ship never went back and time and crashed.

They did exist simultaneously for 200 years without any problem

Because the Defiant crashed in a timeline where there descendants didn't exist yet to tell them they crashed, thus no Odo on the planet to prevent the crash.

Timeline A - Defiant finds empty planet, crashes back in time creating timeline B
Timeline B - Defiant comes across descendants of Timeline A, they don't crash causing the decendats of Timeline A to cease to exist creating Timeline C where the events of A never happened.

 

[Oddish]

It's a potential grandfather paradox...
Defiant gets knocked back in time.
Defiant finds from descendants what's going to happen.
Odo prevents it.
Defiant doesn't get knocked back in time.
No one tells the Defiant what's coming.
Defiant DOES get knocked back in time.
And the resultant paradox either results in two alternate timelines, or causes the universe to implode.

 

[Michael]

Always used to love that episode, but on the last rewatch I had big problems with Odo being responsible for wiping them all from existence with barely any consequences for him. Younger me always was in awe of the love he felt for Kira, but grown-up me thinks his actions were rather questionable.

The time travel dilemma in this episode, though, is pretty straight-forward (as far as those kind of plots go) and I never had the kind of problems with it you seem to be having.

 

[valkyrie013]

For this example, Time is Time, there is now 1st time the defiant goes back in time without finding the colony, the colony always existed. So if the colony always existed, then there would be no colony because they don't go back in time.

Same if you get a warning from the future about Event A. There is no 1st time, there will always be a warning from the future, even if that future didn't happen, because it happened in the past.

 

[Paul Weaver]

in Voyagers finale as well

OK, I stopped reading there.

Thinking of all the great time travel episodes - Tomorrow is Yesterday, Yesterday's Enterprise, All Good Things, Past Tense, Futures End, and you pick out the travesty of Endgame?

It's a potential grandfather paradox...

There's a superposition where the colony both exists and doesn't exist.

 

[Oddish]

There's a superposition where the colony both exists and doesn't exist.

Right. So, the colony was not erased per se. When the Defiant left, the colonists watched it depart, then went on with their lives in one parallel universe. The Defiant, thanks to Odo, wound up in a second parallel universe, where the disaster had been averted. So the colony still existed, they just couldn't see it anymore.

It messes with your head.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That’s true, if not going back in time erased their existence then it also should have erased not going back in time.

But I don’t get why you single out that episode for that. Especially one that was focused more on the emotions and choices than the time travel. It’s not like any other sci-fi has done time travel any better. Even when you can go back in time but can’t change the past, it doesn’t explain how events that caused themselves started the cycle to begin with.

The only version that is truly internally consistent is the “Going back in time creates an alternate universe” version, but that has narrative weaknesses cause it eliminates consequences.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Right. So, the colony was not erased per se. When the Defiant left, the colonists watched it depart, then went on with their lives in one parallel universe. The Defiant, thanks to Odo, wound up in a second parallel universe, where the disaster had been averted. So the colony still existed, they just couldn't see it anymore.

It messes with your head.

That’s a retcon based on how other franchises has done time travel, it doesn’t derive from the text of the episode.

 

[Oddish]

There are three theories on how a time paradox resolves itself.
1. "Hand of God". You are physically stopped from doing anything that prevents your trip through time and causes a paradox.
2. "Parallel Universe". The timeline splits, with the old timeline on one side and the altered timeline on the other.
3. "Universal Annihilation": the space-time continuum cannot handle two realities somehow simultaneously existing, and the backlash causes everything in the universe to cease to exist.

 

[Paul Weaver]

it doesn’t explain how events that caused themselves started the cycle to begin with.

That's the bootstrap paradox, in Children of Time's case this was averted -- the Barrier piqued Dax's interest, not the colony. Kira said there could be lifeforms on the surface - but we know there were lifeforms that weren't the descendents anyway ("We've never plowed fields or milked chattel. We've lived as warriors, hunters. ")

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's the bootstrap paradox, in Children of Time's case this was averted -- the Barrier piqued Dax's interest, not the colony. Kira said there could be lifeforms on the surface - but we know there were lifeforms that weren't the descendents anyway ("We've never plowed fields or milked chattel. We've lived as warriors, hunters. ")

Exactly, and historically how Star Trek resolves paradoxes is that anyone actively moving through time is exempt from the consequences of their history being changed.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Always used to love that episode, but on the last rewatch I had big problems with Odo being responsible for wiping them all from existence with barely any consequences for him. Younger me always was in awe of the love he felt for Kira, but grown-up me thinks his actions were rather questionable.

I agree it's very questionable, but it was alternative Odo who did that, so I don't think 'our' Odo should suffer any consequences for it.