Spoilers S10E06 "Extremis" Review, Discussion and Grade Thread

[Mr. Adventure]

Although, I still think it falls apart. Why not scare off the death people using the same exact method that worked but a little bit earlier? That way the two of them could escaped and the Doctor wouldn't be tied to a vault for a 1000 years.

That's what I was getting at, why let them force your hand on the one when you're cheating the other? They didn't even care about it as punishment but reassurance that the job was done so it seems weird to put himself in that position.

Did you miss the part where Nardole stuck his hand outside the projection area? Anything simulated cannot get outside. Those are simulated signals. They are not real EMF (or whatever) transmissions. They exist only inside a computer as equations and their effects only exist inside the computer through computations.

It would be like a character in a video game who has a transmitter trying to send a signal to your actual receiver!

I guess you have to assume the Doctor has somehow (cuz he's the Doctor) hacked into the computer hosting the simulation and then through its networking or something back out into the real world?

 

[Snaploud]

You're missing the point. There was nothing real inside the simulation. The simulated signals cannot exist in the real world. It's really like a game character trying to send a radio signal to a real world receiver. It's just not going to happen!

The scene with the projector showed that the characters and objects existed in the physical world and decohere when passing beyond the field of the projectors. Now, it's not definite that these holographic objects have physical substance to an outsider (ala star trek), but it's certainly conceivable (and even implied if we believe all the invaders were real and not just simulations). If so, it's not a stretch to think holographic devices could act upon our physical universe in other ways (such as producing a true electromagnetic signal). In fact, the holograms themselves are likely produced by the complicated manipulation of energies. Regular electromagnetic signals should be simple by comparison.

 

[Xerxes82]

You're missing the point. There was nothing real inside the simulation. The simulated signals cannot exist in the real world. It's really like a game character trying to send a radio signal to a real world receiver. It's just not going to happen!

And I think his point is rather that we can see that the simulated characters have physical existence. The holographic projectors mapped them into physical space. They aren't just 1s and 0s whirring about in a computer somewhere. They were physically projected into "life." Thus, if the simulated glasses physically exist, even if only as a construct of the holographic environment, then they can conceivably send a real signal.

What we saw wasn't the Matrix. Somewhere it all played out in physical reality. It was holographic, and it was programmed, but it "happened." Somewhere out there holo-Doctor died. And has died many, many times apparently. If he's "just" a hologram does that make his life any less "real?" An interesting question to ask on a board where Star Trek Voyager is a topic of discussion.

 

[Mr Awe]

That's what I was getting at, why let them force your hand on the one when you're cheating the other? They didn't even care about it as punishment but reassurance that the job was done so it seems weird to put himself in that position.


I guess you have to assume the Doctor has somehow (cuz he's the Doctor) hacked into the computer hosting the simulation and then through its networking or something back out into the real world?

For the first part, I'm not sure but I'm thinking that the Doctor himself wants Missy locked up in order to protect others. She can't be harming others while inside the vault. He doesn't want her dead, just imprisoned. I don't know but that seems to be what fits best.

I think you're right about the 2nd part. You'd have to assume that somehow he arranged for the computer running the simulation to send a physical signal to the real sonic glasses. Doesn't seem likely but, as you say, he is the Doctor.

 

[Mr Awe]

And I think his point is rather that we can see that the simulated characters have physical existence. The holographic projectors mapped them into physical space. They aren't just 1s and 0s whirring about in a computer somewhere. They were physically projected into "life." Thus, if the simulated glasses physically exist, even if only as a construct of the holographic environment, then they can conceivably send a real signal.

What we saw wasn't the Matrix. Somewhere it all played out in physical reality. It was holographic, and it was programmed, but it "happened." Somewhere out there holo-Doctor died. And has died many, many times apparently. If he's "just" a hologram does that make his life any less "real?" An interesting question to ask on a board where Star Trek Voyager is a topic of discussion.

I guess possibly but it seems rather wasteful to physically reconstruct everything with working physical models. And, if the signals from the sonic glasses got out somehow, then all the other EMF signals were leaking all over the place too.

Shoot, if they could physically recreate the entire world, including the freaking TARDIS, these aliens don't need to run a simulation to invade Earth!

And, it doesn't answer why the aliens didn't just delete the Veritas from the program if they wanted it removed.

 

[JRoss]

The doctor must have hacked the simulation computer itself in order to get the signal out. Invaders must have set it up with WiFi.

I thought something was up when they showed the Doctor get the email at the beginning, then not respond in any way to coming across such an obscure word as extremis twice in a short span. Like why not perk his ears up when the dood said Extremis.

 

[Xerxes82]

And, it doesn't answer why the aliens didn't just delete the Veritas from the program if they wanted it removed.

The impression I got from the episode, but certainly not the only reading of it, is that it's about verisimilitude. If you just delete the book, then you've changed the simulated world artificially, potentially rendering it's academic value as a model moot. The whole point is to learn about humans, Earth, and how to best conquer the planet. How much good data do you get when you just cheat the game world to get the result you want?

Thus they have to physically intervene in the situation, as they would if it were a real event, in order to keep the model untainted.

 

[Mr Awe]

The impression I got from the episode, but certainly not the only reading of it, is that it's about verisimilitude. If you just delete the book, then you've changed the simulated world artificially, potentially rendering it's academic value as a model moot. The whole point is to learn about humans, Earth, and how to best conquer the planet. How much good data do you get when you just cheat the game world to get the result you want?

Thus they have to physically intervene in the situation, as they would if it were a real event, in order to keep the model untainted.

I'm not sure that I would count aliens emerging from a wall as untainted! Certainly that has the potential for more contamination than just deleting it when no one is looking. Either way, they cause some confusion because it is mysteriously gone, but there's less chance of causing disruptions by being observed if they just delete it.

It's probably best not to think about it too much. Just like the transmission from the sonic glasses!

 

[Snaploud]

I guess possibly but it seems rather wasteful to physically reconstruct everything with working physical models. And, if the signals from the sonic glasses got out somehow, then all the other EMF signals were leaking all over the place too.

I suppose it depends upon whether there was anything physically blocking such signals and if the glasses use a special signal that is less easily blocked. Alternatively, the holograms could be in a distant star system, and no regular 21st century human based communication could reach Earth in time to create questions, so there was no need seen to defend against any type of signals. The sonic glasses may have simply taken advatage of the situation.

Shoot, if they could physically recreate the entire world, including the freaking TARDIS, these aliens don't need to run a simulation to invade Earth!

And, it doesn't answer why the aliens didn't just delete the Veritas from the program if they wanted it removed.

Oh, I agree. The numbers nonsense was particularly weird unless one of the programmers was trying to sabotage everything.

 

[Xerxes82]

I'm not sure that I would count aliens emerging from a wall as untainted! Certainly that has the potential for more contamination than just deleting it when no one is looking. Either way, they cause some confusion because it is mysteriously gone, but there's less chance of causing disruptions by being observed if they just delete it.

It's probably best not to think about it too much. Just like the transmission from the sonic glasses!

The difference between their intervention here and the "just delete it" plan is precisely why it doesn't taint the simulation. In any invasion, things are going to go wrong. They will have to respond to those difficulties, and take action. Everything they do in the simulated world is something they could physically do in a real invasion. They could attempt to acquire the book, they could kill to retrieve it. And their attempts to do so could alert potential threats to their presence. All of those things play by the rules of the simulated world because they require the aliens to interact with the world, and it's population. The results of such actions are PRECISELY the kinds of things you would be using such a simulation to study.

Just deleting the book is cheating. It's using the fact that you control the rules of the simulated world to accomplish something you couldn't in a real setting. It's altering your model to reach predicted outcomes, rather than letting the model play out and seeing what the results actually would be. Even by my incredibly poor understanding, it's bad science.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Just deleting the book is cheating. It's using the fact that you control the rules of the simulated world to accomplish something you couldn't in a real setting. It's altering your model to reach predicted outcomes, rather than letting the model play out and seeing what the results actually would be. Even by my incredibly poor understanding, it's bad science.

Why would the book even exist in a real setting?

 

[Mr Awe]

The difference between their intervention here and the "just delete it" plan is precisely why it doesn't taint the simulation. In any invasion, things are going to go wrong. They will have to respond to those difficulties, and take action. Everything they do in the simulated world is something they could physically do in a real invasion. They could attempt to acquire the book, they could kill to retrieve it. And their attempts to do so could alert potential threats to their presence. All of those things play by the rules of the simulated world because they require the aliens to interact with the world, and it's population. The results of such actions are PRECISELY the kinds of things you would be using such a simulation to study.

Just deleting the book is cheating. It's using the fact that you control the rules of the simulated world to accomplish something you couldn't in a real setting. It's altering your model to reach predicted outcomes, rather than letting the model play out and seeing what the results actually would be. Even by my incredibly poor understanding, it's bad science.

Fair points. It may not be exactly what they'll do in the invasion (book snatching from the Vatican) but they're learning something.

If this was a real thing, what they'd do is reprogram the simulation to remove the number glitch (no Veritas document), and then rerun it for maximum accuracy!

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Again rationalizing but since there seems to be a bit of a hole in the sim with the random numbers and the fatal nature of learning of them maybe the veritas is a manifestation of said glitch and it's not easy to simply correct the bug in the complex simulation. "Physically" obtaining the book was the easiest method to remove it. The dialog suggest the simulation has been run multiple times so maybe with each iteration the glitch has become more and more solidified explaining how they could have killed the Doctor multiple times as the veritas didn't fully manifest itself on the first iterations.

I'll get that Marvel No-Prize yet...

 

[DimesDan]

Also, we don't know for sure that it's Missy in the vault *now*. Having the thing open up and seeing Simm's Master tinkering on the piano would be very Moffatt.

He (The Doctor) called her (Missy) by name at the end of the episode, so yes, she is in the vault.

I don't like this week's poll (why does it go straight from decent to rubbish?),

Decent doesn't mean what you think it means. (Like many a word it seems) It can mean several things including adequate; fair; passable which is why it was the second from last choice as none of its meanings would allow it to be higher on that list.

I am not looking forward to seeing this episode after reading a review at the "Guardian". I do not care in what franchise they belong, I effin' hate mind beepery episodes and films. I get screwed enough in real life - I do not need to be screwed with in my entertainment. So, before even seeing this episode, I am giving it the lowest rating.

Having read the same review, I fail to see why you are so worried about the episode, it spoke very highly of the episode.

 

[Skipper]

Well, at least they found an Italian actor to play, well, you know, an Italian.

To the other thespians out there, take note: this is how you made an Italian accent.

The actor who played the pope, on the other hand, was atrocious.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Regardless of what the Doctor's said to the vault, literally anyone or anything can pop out of it once when it opens – a fobwatched again John Simm's Master, a future's Doctor regeneration, Bill uttering “OK, that was a bit weird” (see Pandorica), or a five foot pile of cheese wheels.

So:

1. Missy promised to turn good without hope, without witness, and without reward, if the Doctor teaches her to be. (Not that we believe any of that... yet)
2. The Doctor wouldn't necessarily know if and when Missy dies inside the vault.
3. The Doctor promised to watch over Missy for a thousand years, he's more than a thousand years old, and he's certainly not keeping his promise whilst she's in the box.
4. Time lords can forget things. Clara, the Moment, but I think they can forget much more than that.

So... the vault opens, the first Doctor comes out?


(How many feet would a cheese wheel pile need to be to be as tall as a person?)

 

[PlainSimpleJoel]

That episode was fantastic. Best of the season so far.

 

[TommyR01D]

I think Moff wrote "Doctor defeats invasion from within simulation." and "Missy trapped in vault." on a napkin and then decided to fold them into a storyline before dessert. I'm sure people can rationalize answers but it feels really messy and haphazard.

I had a similar reaction to The Time of the Doctor.

No, I'm assuming that the simulated sonic glasses are not real. So, I think I'm on pretty solid ground with that theory (unless I'm on simulated ground). The idea is that those glasses only exist within the simulation. It can only send simulated signals that propagate in the simulation. The signals are not getting out of the simulation just like the characters couldn't get out.

You're missing the point. There was nothing real inside the simulation. The simulated signals cannot exist in the real world. It's really like a game character trying to send a radio signal to a real world receiver. It's just not going to happen!

This reminds me of the conversation between EMH and Barclay in Projections.

One brain in the head and one in each buttock????

Smart-arse!

But seriously, maybe the three stems are sort of combined together and don't show up as separate in human medical scans....or alien medical scans.

That's probably the cleanest rationalisation we can get.

 

[Venardhi]

The actor who played the pope, on the other hand, was atrocious.

Maybe he was doing an Argentinian accent?

There were definitely some holes in this one, but it played with some ideas that I suspect few people outside of philosophy and the darker corners of sci-fi have considered and for that it gets some forgiveness.

I would have liked an aside that if such a simulation is possible, it is more likely than not that you're already living in one. If so, and if you can't tell the difference, a simulated world is no different from a "real" one. You know, just twist the dagger a bit in the minds of all those impressionable kids.

It is effectively a reset "never actually happened" episode but unlike a lot of other sci-fi shows we don't see that much in Doctor Who so I'm willing to let it slide as long as it plays into the bigger story being told this season.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

I had a similar reaction to The Time of the Doctor.

Ar-Pharazon said: ↑
But seriously, maybe the three stems are sort of combined together and don't show up as separate in human medical scans....or alien medical scans.

That's probably the cleanest rationalisation we can get.

One brain stem exists in the present, one in the future, one in the past, all occupying the same space. Time Lord...