S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt universe

[VOODOOXI]

Does anyone else out there think that all Star Trek novels comics and TAS should be considered canon?

It's just such a cop out to say that they have no place in the Star Trek universe.

I would suggest that they are considered canon in some type of alternate universe. Or in any number of alternate universes.

If the rumors about the new film are correct ST XI itself will be taking place in an alternate universe.

Surely it could be explained that the novels take place in a series of never ending alternate universes.

There has been a lot of great Star Trek (and some pretty bad Star Trek) that has taken place in novels and not on screen. I think they should be given the respect of having their own canon that takes place in alt universes.

 

[Christopher]

That's not what "canon" means. It doesn't mean "real." A canon is simply the original work itself, whether by the original author or produced by the original studio/owner in the original medium, as opposed to any derivative works based upon it. Books are derivative works, and therefore not part of the canon.

As for the books, if you want to believe they're "real," go ahead! Nobody's stopping you. This isn't something where there's some authority handing down proclamations that you have to obey. It's your imagination -- believe whatever you want about the "reality" of the stories. They're all make-believe anyway, onscreen or off.

 

[VOODOOXI]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Your points are valid, but I think it would give these works a certain level of credibility if it was declared by tptb that these books actually did take place, but in an alt universe.

Maybe I have too much time on my hands tonight to think about this stuff.

 

[ryan123450]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

I don't see how it would give them more "credibility." They are works of fiction.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

*runs screaming into the night*

 

[JWolf]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Can we get a moderator to lock this thread down?

 

[Christopher]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

VOODOOXI said:
Your points are valid, but I think it would give these works a certain level of credibility if it was declared by tptb that these books actually did take place, but in an alt universe.

Define "tptb." Like I said, there is no permanent authority whose job it is to define Trek canon; after the end of the Roddenberry/Arnold era, nobody was even trying to define it officially, because it's not something that the actual makers of a show need to worry about. What they make is automatically canon, after all.

To clarify: two decades ago, "the powers that be" were Gene Roddenberry and Richard Arnold, who tried to lay down the law about what "canon" was. But then Roddenberry died and Arnold got fired, and their various successors defined it in different ways, to the extent that they bothered to define it at all. For instance, Jeri Taylor considered the events of her VGR novels to be canonical, but once she wasn't showrunner anymore, her successors ignored those events.

Heck, even a canon isn't entirely consistent within itself. There are a couple of videos circulating on YouTube lately that compile a lot of the continuity errors in the ST canon. So sticking the label "canon" on something has little to do with whether it represents a consistent reality.

Now, the only people making new ST -- the only people who have any say over what counts as acknowledged "real" events in the Trek universe -- are J.J. Abrams and the producers of the new movie. I mean, unless there's new Trek being made, the question of whether offscreen material is acknowledged as "real" by the Trek canon is meaningless. For what it's worth, the writers have said that there are a number of references and homages to various books in the film. Which doesn't mean "the books are canon" -- that's a self-contradictory statement -- but it does mean that such decisions are made by individual producers on a case-by-case basis, not declared by one authority for good and all.

So there is no "declaration from tptb" that would affect the "credibility" of the books. That's just not the way it works. The books are as "credible" as you, the individual reader, want them to be.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

JWolf said:
Can we get a moderator to lock this thread down?

Why should I? Just because you, me, and all of the authors have been down this road before doesn't mean everyone has.

 

[Scott Pearson]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

I don't see much difference at all between what I think you're asking for and the actual status of the books at this time; the fiction published by Simon & Schuster is licensed by, for lack of a better term, TPTB. They keep a close eye on it, reviewing stories to make sure they stay fairly true to the overall canon, as TPTB see it. But Trek produced for the big or small screen is not beholden to the printed works. So stuff that happens in the books doesn't affect what happens on the screen. Official approval and review, but outside of onscreen continuity. What's the difference between that and being "declared by TPTB" to be taking place in an alt universe?

 

[Herbert1]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Out of curiosity, are authors of the current Pocket Books novels free to use characters, events, or vehicles created by other licensees in their novels? For example, could a new Star Trek TNG continuation novel contain material from the FASA "Star Trek" RPG? Or are they prohibited from doing so?

 

[KRAD]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

^ Sure, we can use stuff like that if we want to.

 

[Herbert1]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Thanks KRAD, I always wondered about that.

 

[James Swallow]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Herbert said:
Out of curiosity, are authors of the current Pocket Books novels free to use characters, events, or vehicles created by other licensees in their novels? For example, could a new Star Trek TNG continuation novel contain material from the FASA "Star Trek" RPG? Or are they prohibited from doing so?

I used some stuff from a sourcebook for the Last Unicorn Trek RPG in Day of the Vipers...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Herbert said:
could a new Star Trek TNG continuation novel contain material from the FASA "Star Trek" RPG? Or are they prohibited from doing so?

The ban on cross-pollination between various licensees' products was only really in effect between the 1989 ST Office memo and Roddenberry's death in 1991. Inter-license sharing slowly started creeping back in as soon as Roddenberry passed away but, even during the ban, authors found ways to slip things under Richard Arnold's nose... including a gravestone (in a comic story by PAD) with "ARNOLD" written on it.

 

[Christopher]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

^^That 1989 memo is the root of the problem, really. It introduced fandom to the idea of "canon" as something that was declared from on high and defined in terms of what it excluded or forbade, rather than simply an onscreen body of work that was made up as it went. And even though that memo ceased to be in effect a decade and a half ago, the fans have gone on assuming that's what "canon" means, that there's some judgmental authority at Paramount gazing down and handing out ukases on what the fans are allowed to consider "true Star Trek."

 

[Geoff]

VOODOOXI said:
Surely it could be explained that the novels take place in a series of never ending alternate universes.

I can settle this right now. I just dimmed the lights, lit some candles and incense, and communicated with the disembodied ghost of Gene Roddenberry.

And he agreed that, yes, the novels take place in a series of never-ending alternate universes, each one branching off from the events that were established on-screen. Sometimes multiple novels will even occur within the same specific continuity, but that's for the reader to decide.

Whew! Glad that's out of the way. Now we don't ever, ever have to have this discussion again, right?

 

[Steve Roby]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

VOODOOXI said:
I would suggest that they are considered canon in some type of alternate universe. Or in any number of alternate universes.

The way the term "canon" has generally been defined, it's not a matter of "considering." Is it a filmed episode or movie produced by Desilu/Paramout/CBS? Yes or no? Traditionally, in practice it's been exactly that simple.

More to the point, canon means that which should not be lightly contradicted. Shunting the books and other tie-ins into an alternate universe means you're putting them in a place where they can be easily contradicted, because they aren't in the "real" Trek continuity. I'm not sure how many people would see that as being canon.

 

[JD]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Personally, I don't see where having the books declared "canon" would really make that much of a difference. Yes, it might cause some people to "take them more seriously", but I don't really see where it is something that needs to be done. IMO all should really matter when it comes to the books is the quality of the story. If you ask me it is really sad that some people refuse to even look at the books just because they aren't recognized by "TPTB" as "canon".
As for what I consider part of my continuity (a better way to describe what people call "canon") , if it is good, and doesn't contradict another part of my continuity it's included.

 

[Stevil2001]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

Geoff said:
Whew! Glad that's out of the way. Now we don't ever, ever have to have this discussion again, right?

He told me that only Star Trek XI and "The Procrustean Petard" are canon. Everything else happened in an alternate universe.

I guess Forged in Fire will have to be rewritten now.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: S.T. novels should be considered canon in an alt univer

JD said:
it is really sad that some people refuse to even look at the books just because they aren't recognized by "TPTB" as "canon".

In Australia, ST III was delayed from a cinema release for many months - the wait was agonizing, so I convinced many of my friends that the ST III novelization was a great read. Boy, were they mad when the film came out that the novelization "was filled with things that never happened". This was long before Richard Arnold started his salaried job at Paramount, and fans hadn't ever heard the "c" word.

Many refused to see Vonda McIntyre's additional material as a positive, that she'd achieved so much by enriching the story of the movie with so many new scenes that rounded out the supporting cast (including the families of the dead Genesis Project scientists from ST II). I thought I did a good job anticipating which scenes were McIntyre's additions and which would be in the movie, but others saw the book as some kind of betrayal.

The novelization of ST III would have been a mighty slim read if it had stuck strictly to the script - and particularly underwhelming if you'd already seen the movie - but presumably that's precisely what some fans wanted?