running Earth
- Thread starter Captrek
- Start date
I just watched those episodes again yesterday and in them they seem to make the distinction between "UFP" and "Starfleet" as separate entities (not sure to sure what they mean by that though). Sisko says that UFP governs Earth yet he objects to Starfleet doing so.
But yeah, it is shown that UFP is the one-world government of Earth. LOL
Here's some quotations from the script that show those things:
And also the global power grid run by UFP that controls all power on Earth etc. etc.
But yeah, it is shown that UFP is the one-world government of Earth. LOL
Here's some quotations from the script that show those things:
And also the global power grid run by UFP that controls all power on Earth etc. etc.
Jaresh-Inyo appeared to be meeting with a bunch of suited Humans; I always assumed these were representatives of the Earth government.
UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS IS THE GOVERNMENT / NATION ! STARFLEET IS THE MILITARY OF THAT NATION ! IT'S THAT SIMPLE ! STARFLEET IS NOT A NATION. IT'S A MILITARY ORGANIZATION WHICH WHILE EXPLORING SPACE ALSO IS TASKED WITH DEFENDING IT'S NATION : THE FEDERATION. THE FEDERATION IS A COLLECTION OF PLANETS ALL WITH THERE OWN GOVERNING BODY, BUT WHICH ALL DIRECTING FALL UNDER ONE UNITED GOVERNMENT. JUST LIKE ALL FIFTY STATES IN THE U.S. STATE LAW DIFFERS FROM FEDERAL LAW BUT FEDERAL LAW OVERIDES. I'M SURE THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE'S A PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERATION THAT THERE IS ALSO STILL A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE SAME AS LEADER OF ALL THE REMAIN COUNTRIES, AND PERHAPS A PRESIDENT OF EARTH. ALL OF WHOM ARE UNDER THE RULE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERATION.
A lot of people seem to make this mistake. The Federation and Starfleet are always separate entities (well, separate in the sense that one is the part of other, like the US Armed Forces are a part of the US government, 'government' in the sense of all the institutions of the country, not just the institutions at the top).
Sisko objects to Starfleet, which is a military organization within the Federation government, overthrowing the civilian leaders of the entire Federation and thus in the process, taking control of Earth where the seat of the Federation is. Earth is maybe some kind of a federal district like DC in USA.
But is it run by the UFP? Does the episode state that? I would guess it was run by the unmentioned Earth gov.
Nothing put on-screen explicitly states that the UFP rules the Earth, just that the President's Office is there. None of Sisko's dialog states anything about Earth except that in their particular situation he put Leyton and Sisko in charge of it's defense from an external threat (which is what Starfleet would do for any Federation world). Leyton says stuff about "this is our world" because he's a human from Earth itself.
As for the Power Grid, all that's said about that was that the Red Squad took it out. Not that it was a UFP grid or anything.
As for the Power Grid, all that's said about that was that the Red Squad took it out. Not that it was a UFP grid or anything.
Really? Can you imagine an episode in which the UFP President authorizes Starfleet to put Andoria under martial law without so much as a peep about how the Andorian government feels about it?
Really? You can see the UFP moving in, suspending the Andorian government, taking over by force, without so much as mentioning on screen that this is happening or eliciting a word of complaint from an Andorian?
If we are to presume, as RDM suggests, that Earth has its own government, then the UFP suspended that government and took over. This is a major event; to keep it off screen and unmentioned and act as if this is the normal state of affairs is misleading, at best.
When the President expresses his reservations about the Leyton-Sisko proposal, he expresses an aversion to martial law as a concept. He expresses no concerns about usurping the people of Earth’s right to self determination by suspending their own elected government. No representative of Earth’s government is included in the discussion or even invited to listen. When Sisko’s dad, acting as the voice the writers chose for “the people,” expresses his complaints, he too complains about martial law, but makes no mention of Earth’s own elected government being suspended.
Has there ever been canon Trek depicting the UFP governing a member planet other than Earth without so much as mentioning that the planet has its own government? None that I can recall. The apparent implication here is that the UFP is the government of Earth.
If we are to presume, as RDM suggests, that Earth has its own government, then the UFP suspended that government and took over. This is a major event; to keep it off screen and unmentioned and act as if this is the normal state of affairs is misleading, at best.
When the President expresses his reservations about the Leyton-Sisko proposal, he expresses an aversion to martial law as a concept. He expresses no concerns about usurping the people of Earth’s right to self determination by suspending their own elected government. No representative of Earth’s government is included in the discussion or even invited to listen. When Sisko’s dad, acting as the voice the writers chose for “the people,” expresses his complaints, he too complains about martial law, but makes no mention of Earth’s own elected government being suspended.
Has there ever been canon Trek depicting the UFP governing a member planet other than Earth without so much as mentioning that the planet has its own government? None that I can recall. The apparent implication here is that the UFP is the government of Earth.
Firstly, are we really sure it's martial law that's beeing declared? You know, people often use the term 'martial law' when it's actually a 'state of emergency' they're talking about. And those are different things. Martial law means putting the military in complete rule, giving them the authority to arrest, enforce laws, convict people before military tribunals. That would be superceding the civilian authority. State of emergency just means granting the institutions of the state some addditional powers and suspending some of te guarantied rights but not to the extent as in martial law. In fact, I think they actually use the term 'State of Emergency' in the episode. So, i beleive UE gov is still there, it hasn't been completely superceded (in fact, it has probaly gone to SoE as well), federal forces have just been granted additional powers.
As for there being no protests, take the moment when SoE is declared into account. Earth's power grid has just been completely knocked out. An invasion force may be coming Earth's way. They would be begging Starfleet to do something!
Not to mention how simply unpractical it would be for UFP to run Earth. They have to deal with running the affairs of a interstellar alliance. You think they have time to deal with measly planetary affairs like suppling electricity? Heck, in the US, DC actually is under sole federal authority (something which Earth may be, but I don't think it is). But does the federal gov run it? No, most of the powers are delegated to a local DC government.
As for there being no protests, take the moment when SoE is declared into account. Earth's power grid has just been completely knocked out. An invasion force may be coming Earth's way. They would be begging Starfleet to do something!
Not to mention how simply unpractical it would be for UFP to run Earth. They have to deal with running the affairs of a interstellar alliance. You think they have time to deal with measly planetary affairs like suppling electricity? Heck, in the US, DC actually is under sole federal authority (something which Earth may be, but I don't think it is). But does the federal gov run it? No, most of the powers are delegated to a local DC government.
It's stated in the episode that it is a State of Emergency, not martial law. The reason they used Starfleet Officers was because Leyton had set things up to neutralize Earth's normal planetary defenses/forces and leave only people under his control as the only ones who could do anything.
I had a nice big long reply to this whole thing that accidently got deleted. Garrrrgh!
So, to get a bit briefer:
So, to get a bit briefer:
- Nothing in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" established or implied that United Earth does not exist, only that it is the task of the UFP to defend the planet Earth, and that the Federation President has the legal right to declare a State of Emergency and land troops. Presumably, the Federation President can do this for ANY Federation Member world.
- This does not mean that the U.E. government must have been suspended. As another user noted, U.E. probably declared a State of Emergency itself. For a real life-example, former U.S. President George W. Bush declared a state of emergency in specific parishes of Louisiana on 27 August 2005, two days before Hurricane Katrina and then put federalized National Guard units into New Orleans to restore order. This does not mean that the Louisiana state government was suspended.
- Further, the Federation is, well, a federation, a state that practices federalism - dividing power between the central government and regional governments. It wouldn't be much of a federation if its own capital planet didn't get to have its own government.
- Some people have argued that Earth is to the UFP as the District of Columbia is to the United State or as Ciudad de México is to the United Mexican States. I really hope that that's not the situation, because the position of D.C. within the U.S. is deeply, deeply immoral. The District of Columbia has more citizens than the State of Wyoming, and yet it is denied equal representation in Congress. District citizens get a single Delegate to the U.S. House of Representatives who may only vote in committee; meanwhile, citizens of Wyoming get a full U.S. Representative and two United States Senators. They get less say in the national legislature, yet have to pay the same taxes and abide by all the same laws. Further, the District government can be abolished at any time at Congress's pleasure, and Congress can over-ride any of the decisions the District government makes -- two things Congress can NEVER do to a state government. The District of Columbia deserves full statehood, and that gross inequality should never be imitated by any future government.
- Finally, the fact that "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" didn't include a reference to the U.E. government doesn't mean it's not there. "Paradise Lost" was mostly told from the POV of Sisko, who was, after all, busy uncovering a plot to overthrow the Federation government; naturally he wouldn't be dealing with the U.E. response to the state of emergency.
Further, for what it's worth, the novels Corps of Engineers: The Future Begins and Enterprise: The Good That Men Do establish something of the structure of the United Earth government. From The Future Begins, we know that United Earth during the Earth-Romulan War had a President, a Native North American (dunno if she was U.S. or Canadian) named Lydia Littlejohn, who was considered particularly inspirational during the war. The Good That Men Do, meanwhile, establishes that Nathan Samuels (whom we encountered in ENT's "Demons" and "Terra Prime") is the Prime Minister of United Earth, and that the U.E. PM is the real head of government, the person who holds actual power.
This seems to imply that United Earth's constitutional set-up is that of a republican parliamentary system -- akin to Ireland's or Italy's, with an elected but mostly ceremonial President and a Prime Minister who is the real source of executive leadership. The novel A Less Perfect Union confirms the existence of a United Earth Parliament. The short story "Eleven Hours Out" in the anthology Tales of the Dominion War establishes that the United Earth Prime Minister still exists in 2375; that year, the U.E. Prime Minister joins the Federation President and President of the United States in touring the devastated City of San Francisco after the Breen attack.
Re: Navaros's quotes. I'm going to alter some proper names to demonstrate why his quotes do not establish the Federation to directly govern Earth.
Surely no one would take this to mean that Louisiana does not normally have its own government?
Would one infer from this that Ontario does not normally have its own government?
Would one infer from this that the Commonwealth of Virginia, where the Navy is headquartered, lacks its own government?
Surely nothing about this statement implies that state governments do not exist just because it uses the phrase "the government" to refer to the Federal government.
This seems to imply that United Earth's constitutional set-up is that of a republican parliamentary system -- akin to Ireland's or Italy's, with an elected but mostly ceremonial President and a Prime Minister who is the real source of executive leadership. The novel A Less Perfect Union confirms the existence of a United Earth Parliament. The short story "Eleven Hours Out" in the anthology Tales of the Dominion War establishes that the United Earth Prime Minister still exists in 2375; that year, the U.E. Prime Minister joins the Federation President and President of the United States in touring the devastated City of San Francisco after the Breen attack.
Re: Navaros's quotes. I'm going to alter some proper names to demonstrate why his quotes do not establish the Federation to directly govern Earth.
Surely no one would take this to mean that Louisiana does not normally have its own government?
Would one infer from this that Ontario does not normally have its own government?
Would one infer from this that the Commonwealth of Virginia, where the Navy is headquartered, lacks its own government?
Surely nothing about this statement implies that state governments do not exist just because it uses the phrase "the government" to refer to the Federal government.
Also, to approach this from another tack, when did a UFP planetary government ever serve as a major plot point or onscreen presence in an episode or a movie? When Vulcan comes under attack in "Unification", only the Federal Starfleet seems to defend the world if we believe what we see - yet nothing in the story precludes Vulcan from having its own government that issues orders to its own local militia or police force or even national military. It's just that the camera centers on our Starfleet heroes. And when Vulcan again comes under attack in "Gambit", UFP agents fight against the threat - yet nothing suggests Vulcan would lack its own intelligence or counterintelligence operatives, let alone its own local government.
It's simply a standard story format that Starfleet is shown handling things and liaisoning with that part of the overall UFP government that is its most direct superior and supervisor. This story format typically remains even when the action takes place in UFP territory, on Vulcan or Earth or Andor. At no time should this be taken to indicate that nothing outside Starfleet and the top levels of Federal government exists.
Well, perhaps excluding the issue of police forces. Interestingly, while Starfleet is regularly shown acting in police capacity within the UFP and its member worlds, one never sees local police forces in action - and this time the absence of evidence is so pervasive that it begins to look like evidence of absence. After all, the usual format of a "police plot" is one of conflicts of authority between the heroes and some less heroic representatives of the overall police organization. In Trek, there's never such conflict with local UFP police forces!
Timo Saloniemi
It's simply a standard story format that Starfleet is shown handling things and liaisoning with that part of the overall UFP government that is its most direct superior and supervisor. This story format typically remains even when the action takes place in UFP territory, on Vulcan or Earth or Andor. At no time should this be taken to indicate that nothing outside Starfleet and the top levels of Federal government exists.
Well, perhaps excluding the issue of police forces. Interestingly, while Starfleet is regularly shown acting in police capacity within the UFP and its member worlds, one never sees local police forces in action - and this time the absence of evidence is so pervasive that it begins to look like evidence of absence. After all, the usual format of a "police plot" is one of conflicts of authority between the heroes and some less heroic representatives of the overall police organization. In Trek, there's never such conflict with local UFP police forces!
Timo Saloniemi
There is an appearance by a civilian police organization called Federation Security in Star Trek III. And for whatever it's worth, the novel A Singular Destiny by Keith R.A. DeCandido features the Johnson City Police Department on the Federation Member world of Cestus III.
I got a new keyboard today. No more broken capslock.
-For those of you who thought I was 'yelling' on purpose.
The National Guard is State, not federal. That's not an argument against what you said, I just wanted to point that out. I'm a member of the Guard and as so, we are not Federal troops. We're not regular Army. We're basically the State's Army and one of our main purposes is to mobilize during times of emergency, like Katrina. I'm only pointing this out because I believe it supports the assumption that the relationship between The United Federation of planets government and the Earth government is comparable to the relationship between our Federal government and any state government.
Similar threads
- Poll
