RTS strategies discussion

[eastman23]

I think most of us turtlers are just playing against the dumb computer I could never survive against a human opponent I build way too slow. Besides I play these things to relax not to stress out as I frantically build stuff as quickly as humanly possible.

Yup, that's me. I'm terrible at playing other people, but I enjoy slugging it out with the AI on occasion.

What would happen if we got a bunch of people (including me) who were terrible at playing against other people?

I tend to go for the defensive strategy as well. I've only played a couple games against a human opponent and everytime I was beat. Came close once in a game of Red Alert 2 when I had a force of Prism Tanks that would have inflicted serious damage... if I hadn't ordered them to attack and let them do it in single file. Duh is me.

 

[AntonyF]

I throw up walls and lots of defenses, and fend off the enemy letting them lose forces trying to attack me. Then once I've built up a huge force, out I go.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Would any of you fast guys have tips on how to do faster stuff? I can place stuff pretty quickly, but my issues ultimately come down to resources:
~If I build lots of resource gathering quickly, then I don't have enough resources for troops.
~If I build lots of troops quickly, then I don't have the resources to build nearly enough fast enough or enough to build more resource gathering.
~If I try to build lots of base defenses, then I don't have the resources to do either of the above two things. Or...
~If I try to strike a balance, then I don't have the resources to do anything effectively.

I don't know how things go for other slow-pokes against humans, but for me, my gameplay always ends in tragedy.

 

[Mr Light]

Is there any RTS game where you instruct a builder to create say a base defense, and then if that gets destroyed it'll automatically build a replacement? That would be awesome. Or if you say want to have three tanks guarding your base entrance, if one gets killed it'll automatically build another one to replace it?

 

[Kelthaz]

Would any of you fast guys have tips on how to do faster stuff? I can place stuff pretty quickly, but my issues ultimately come down to resources:
~If I build lots of resource gathering quickly, then I don't have enough resources for troops.
~If I build lots of troops quickly, then I don't have the resources to build nearly enough fast enough or enough to build more resource gathering.
~If I try to build lots of base defenses, then I don't have the resources to do either of the above two things. Or...
~If I try to strike a balance, then I don't have the resources to do anything effectively.

Well are you talking Starcraft or RTS games in general? I can give you some tips on Starcraft, but that's the only game I know. I suck at and/or hate the rest.

 

[archeryguy1701]

I'm talking at RTS's in general. I personally haven't played Starcraft since the computer did the same thing 9 times in a row, and then the first game I changed my strategy, it did something completely different.

 

[Lindley]

I need to play Homeworld 2 again......I'm remembering how much fun it is to send a buttload of ion beam frigates against the screening units for a carrier, while fighters screen them from counterattack and a couple of bomber squadrons sneak in for the kill.

And I do believe that's the only RTS game I've played that lets me keep my navy between maps.

 

[Kelthaz]

^ Oh, well I can't help you there. I've tried, but I've never been able to get into an RTS that wasn't Starcraft. Whenever I play a different RTS I always tend to think "Why am I playing this when I could be playing Starcraft?", so I switch.

One thing that really helped me get good at Starcraft, and should work for any game, is to watch replays of pros. I learned proper building strategies, counters, and resource management. I'm not that good, but I at least know how to properly play the game.

If you find a good forum for the game it will help too. I picked up quite a few Starcraft tips for getting a much faster start. For example building a supply depot after your 7th worker.

 

[Lookingglassman]

I haven't played a lot of these, but what usually works for me is to have a powerful reserve somewhere. Once I wear the enemy down enough, I send in my reserve to finish them off.

 

[Bishbot]

If you find a good forum for the game it will help too. I picked up quite a few Starcraft tips for getting a much faster start. For example building a supply depot after your 7th worker.

That's the best advice. The great thing about the internet is that someone will have figured all this stuff out. The nuance of the game will come about when the actual fighting starts, but if you want to be alive for that part, then you need to find out an optimal build order and stick to it if possible, while using one worker to scout the map looking for the enemy.

 

[FPAlpha]

I once saw a documentary about Korean pro gamers.. in their case Starcraft.

It was scary to see the speeds with which they issued commands and the insane amounts of micromanaging they were capable of.

Most people would call them out for wasting their time until they hear that the most successful of them earn upwards of 100k a year by winning tournaments and gaining sponsoring contracts

However what struck me most was the one guy, an ex champion, who was 25 and considered too old for pro gaming because his speed couldn't compete with an 18-20 year old.. 25 YEARS OLD!

If i played these guys i'd probably have lost by the time i've built my 3rd building and have a small force of the most basic troopers.

It's stories like that that remind me how stupid the South Koreans can be.

Why? Earning upwards of 100K a year when you are around 20 and all you do is training a game to get better?

I know that those guys are the exception but i fail to see stupidity in it.. South Korea is at the forefront of pro gaming. It's similar to pro sports people.. are they stupid too (and there even average people sometimes get salaries in the millions.. compared to that pro gaming is nothing).

 

[Jadzia]

The strongest way to play these games is a combination of things:-

• To have good reconnaissance is arguably the most important, but most overlooked skill. If you know exactly where your enemy is, you know when is the best time to attack their base or retreat. This way you can avoid unnecessary casualties. You should prefer to avoid combat if your immediate objective is to destroy buildings. Similarly, you can prepare to defend if that is the immediate objective. Without good reconn, you are always unprepared for what is about to happen.
  
  
• To play with haste. Every second you spend idle is time lost, and this will add up over the duration of the game. Also your resources should be spent. Never let them pile up in the bank. If you've stopped spending, then you've done something wrong. Spend it!
  
  
• Also, you don't play these games planning to engage in some huge battle. It's a common mistake. You use aggressive and guerilla like game play to prevent your opponent from building a sizable force. You should always be looking to remove any advantage they have. Against an equally skilled opponent, you can expect your forces to be equal in power. Rather than engage in a huge battle, you should opportunistically weaken your opponent by quickly responding to each of his/her own minor mistakes. Related to this, early rushing is a high risk endeavor because you cripple yourself to make it. If your opponent is skilled enough to deal with that, then you've probably lost the game.
  
  
• Securing an equal or better economy than your opponent is essential to not be out produced. But don't put too much emphasis on gaining an advantage here -- between equally skilled players, an equal economy is what to expect. Either increase your own economy or prevent your opponent from increasing theirs. Consequential of this, heavily defensive play isn't generally a good choice because you don't secure enough resources to win. (only false vs a dumb computer ai).
  
  
• Good tactical control of units is essential. Use of blocking to prevent retreat, or to split up or stretch out your opponent's forces. Also the skill of moving your unhealthy units in and out of combat. Focus fire is another skill which is often advantageous in attrition. You theoretically take upto 50% less damage from focusing your firing over spreading your fire, although it should be used carefully so as to not waste your damage through overkill, else it can be a negative gain.
  
  
• Good use of special abilities. The importance of units with actively used special abilities is often overlooked. There are countless ways these can aid you in RTS games. Use them profusely. For example, "crowd control" is a common type of ability which traps or stuns or disables an enemy unit temporarily. This can be used to capture and surround a unit from a retreating group, or to reduce the vehemence of an attacking group. Skilled players will use these abilities a lot to control their opponents reactions and drive the dynamics of the confrontation to their own intentions. A skilled player can start at a disadvantage, but use crowd control effectively to trim down an attacking force one unit at a time and result victorious.
  
  
• Units with mana/energy. Many casting units are endowed with Mana/Energy. It is there to be used, not conserved. So don't hold back with it. But it isn't enough just to use it, but to use it effectively. Area-Of-Effect castings should be opportunistically applied where a large group of opponent units are positioned together. AOE and crowd control and focus fire kind of work against each other, through the advantages and disadvantages of having stuff spread out. Splash damage is another one.
  
  
• There are often various non-aggressive castings in these games: Buffing, which boosts the strengths of your own forces. Cursing, to deplete the strengths of your opponents forces. Debuffing, to remove curses and buffs to your own advantage, and units which either do or accelerate healing. When combined, all of these advantages multiply against each other, and a mixture of these effects is theoretically stronger than just focussing on one of these abilities. The disadvantage is that it can be more costly to research all of these, so it has to be built up steadily. The right time to research can be hard to discern.
  
  
• A good understanding of unit counters is also very beneficial. Some unit types perform better when targeting one type of unit over another. Like vs like is typically not the best counter. Having variety is good, but again, too much variety can be costly to develop.
  
  
• All in all RTS is about making good compromises. Too many or too few defenses is bad. Too much or too little aggression is bad. Too much or too little research is bad. Too much or too little effort to expand your economy is bad. At any time, you have limited choices, and there are probably twice as many things you would like to do than you can afford to do.
  

Here's a video from a top european player from his own playing perspective. http://www.xfire.com/video/12f93a/ He is putting a lot of these skills I mentioned above to work.

 

[Jono]

^ Yeah, it does work rather well against computer opponents. I can't think of a RTS game where it doesn't.

1. Build massive defenses.
2. Max out population supply.
3. Wait for the enemy to waste their army on your defenses.
4. Massive Counter Attack
5. Repeat 1-4 as necessary.

It never fails.

Games like Company of Hereoes, DoW where you need to hold resource points. Rise of Nations and Sins of a Solar Empire as you need to expand to new resource areas as one area has a limit in what you can built and support. Warcraft, Starcraft, Conquest: Frontier Wars where resource are infinite.

 

[Bishbot]

What would happen if we got a bunch of people (including me) who were terrible at playing against other people?

Probably everyone would have a ton of fun! I remember the early days of playing Starcraft aged 12 with my three friends. All of us played in all the wrong ways compared to how pros do it and we loved every minute of it

 

[Canadave]

I need to play Homeworld 2 again......I'm remembering how much fun it is to send a buttload of ion beam frigates against the screening units for a carrier, while fighters screen them from counterattack and a couple of bomber squadrons sneak in for the kill.

And I do believe that's the only RTS game I've played that lets me keep my navy between maps.

Yeah, I've always liked Homeworld for that. Of course, it can lead to those desperate situations at the end of the mission where you're urging your fleet to get back into position so you can hyperspace the hell out of there.