ROTS Palpatine vs Jedi posse
- Thread starter USS Firefly
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In an earlier draft of the script "Sido-Dyas" (no, I didn't misspell that) was indeed just a false identity of Sidious. Kenobi hadn't heard of him and Windu confirmed there was no Jedi by that name. Presumably this was changed to make is a *bit* more credible that the high council would take control of an army commissioned by one of their number and not some unknown pretender who is clearly up to no good.
All that said, even after some of this being explained in TCW I'm still confused as to the exact sequence of events. How & when did Sidious become aware of Sifo-Dyas's secret commissioning of the clone army? Did he give him the idea in the first place? When did Tyranus take over? And how the hell did Sifo-Dyas pay for all of that?
I know the 'Plagueis' novel covered at least some of this, but that's not canon and according to Pablo, not in-line with Lucas's notes on the matter. (I never was crazy about the idea of Plagueis still kicking by the events of TPM anyway.)
If I had to guess I'd say Sifo-Dyas placed the order a little while before TPM (a few months to a year), right after they kicked him off the high council. Sidious had him killed by the Pykes right around that time (a matter of days or weeks before TPM) and shortly after becoming Chancellor, had his new apprentice Tyranus (who he'd been grooming/courting since before he left the order, as he would later do with Anakin) recruit Jango and present him to Kaminoans, claiming to be working at Sifo-Dyas's behest.
The gap between placing the order and having the template show up can be easily explained by the Kaminoans needing some lead time to gear up for such a massive logistical undertaking before they'd be ready to start actually growing the clones.
Clearly the funds came from Sidious though his contacts in the commerce guilds (most likely embezzled) but it's still a bit of a mystery how Sifo-Dyas would have convinced the Kaminoans that the money would be forthcoming. I mean it hardly seems likely they take him at his word without at least dropping Couruscant a line to check his credit rating, no?
The only thing I can think of is that Palpatine was a lot more directly involved at this stage than we've been made aware, perhaps directly giving Sifo-Dyas access to the Banking Clan accounts?
If you're interested, there are two different Sifo-Dyas stories, one from the old pre-Disney Legends continuity, and the current canon version from The Clone Wars.Oh. Well I've never seen that show so I'm just going by what we see in the films.
My suspicion was also stoked by the similarity in names of "Sifo-Dyas" and "Sidious".
Yeah, TCW confirmed that Sifo-Dyas was killed before TMP. He may or may not have placed the actual order (Sidious or someone on his payroll could've just used his name). However, the fact that Dooku recruited Jango Fett and was secretly working with the Kamionoans to install the Protocol 66 chips (per TCW: Lost Missions), it's a good bet that the Sith took over as the "customers" after the order was placed. (We don't know, though, if some or all the Kaminoans were "in" on the Sith's plot or assumed that Dooku was part of the Jedi Order managing a classified part of the army "programming."
I imagine that Sidious himself placed the "order" ("10,000 clones to be delivered in a decade and coke and fries to go, please!") through one of his apprentices, perhaps Dooku or another co-opted Jedi, using the name "Sifo Diyas" as cover. No doubt the sith lords planning a centuries long campaign of overthrowng the jedi could bankroll a clone army or two.
Or even the senate could have funded it through one of their black projects with Sidious secretly funneling some of it to Kamino.
Or even the senate could have funded it through one of their black projects with Sidious secretly funneling some of it to Kamino.
New-canon books and the OS Databank confirm that he placed the actual order.
Ultimate Star Wars (p69):
Manipulated by Count Dooku, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas commissions the Kaminoan cloners to grow an army for the Republic.
Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know
(p20)
Q: Who asks for this huge army to be made?
A: Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi High Council member who senses a looming galactic war and tasks the Kaminoans to create a clone army for the Republic. When the Sith learn of this, they murder Sifo-Dyas so they can control the clones' creation.
(p58)
Dooku completes his fall from the light side when he eliminates his friend, Sifo-Dyas, under orders from Darth Sidious. With Sifo-Dyas gone, the Sith take control of the Jedi's clone army.
The Databank:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas
A member of the Jedi Council before the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas believed the galaxy would soon be plunged into war, and agitated for the Republic to create an army for its defense. After the other Jedi rejected his ideas and removed him from the council, he secretly contacted the Kaminoans and commissioned them to create a clone army, which he led the Kaminoans to believe was for the Republic. In doing so, Sifo-Dyas became an unwitting pawn of the Sith, who took over the project and hired the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas on Oba Diah’s moon. A decade after Sifo-Dyas’ death, Obi-Wan Kenobi discovered the army he had commissioned, now ready for duty. The Jedi took control of this army on Supreme Chancellor Palpatine’s orders, setting the Clone Wars in motion.
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The only real oddity about Sifo-Dyas and the creation of the Clone Army is one of timing. Timing involving Count Dooku, since it is unclear when he actually fell to the Dark Side. If he did so after leaving the Jedi Order or before he left? Also why he left, as it was long suggested that he left and fell due to the death of his former apprentice Qui-Gon at the hands of Darth Maul, which apparently was covered up by the Jedi as to not alarm the Republic about the returned Sith after roughly a millennia.
It sounds like Sifo-Dyas was killed and impersonated by Dooku in order to get access to the army. Who placed the order is unknown, it seems, but I would tend to agree that the Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas did before being killed and impersonated by Dooku, possibly through intermediaries so the Kaminoans wouldn't know Sifo-Dyas by sight.
Given that the military (such that it was) of the Republic was operated by the office of the Chancellor, I'm sure Palpatine could have slowly increased the funding to ensure the army was well funded during its development.
I do wonder if the clone army was a plan all along, with Palpatine looking in to cloning for multiple purposes, and deciding that the clones might be useful if perfected as a technology. The time line is one that I find a bit more muddled and would appreciate some more clarity with. I know that the Legends EU has Sifo-Dyas forseeing problems for the Republic and planning on the army with the Sith stepping in shortly after.
ETA: Thanks, @Set Harth , that helps.
fireproof78 said:
The frustrating thing about the relevant Legends EU on the subject - at least the part I'm familiar with, namely the James Luceno books Labyrinth of Evil and Darth Plagueis - was that it strongly implied the above while somewhat conspicuously stopping short of confirming it with 100% certainty.
Indeed. It's made all the more frustrating when his identity and role in the Clone Army were promised to be revealed in the AOTC commentary by Lucas only for that to go by the wayside in ROTS.
Little details are good in world building, but when there's no certainty, it's hard to gt a feel for that character's place in the world. Which pretty much means that he shouldn't be there at all, in my view.
I don't mind the mystery of was it truly Sifo Duas who made the order, or what level of manipulation was involved.
2 main concerns are the funding of it, and why the Jedi so readily accepted the Clone Army, when it had suspicious beginnings, and Mace Windy killed the template.
2 main concerns are the funding of it, and why the Jedi so readily accepted the Clone Army, when it had suspicious beginnings, and Mace Windy killed the template.
I heard one commentator put it this way:
(In Yoda's voice): Hmm, orders these clones we did not. Unauthorized this was. Conspiracy we know there is. What this is this probably is. So, destroy them we should, but, here they are so use them I guess we will.
I get that the point of the plot is to put the Jedi in a bind, as keepers of the peace, not soldiers. But I would have preferred someone to call BS on the clone army well all the clues point towards a conspiracy. Even if its ignored by leadership, someone should be saying something.
And, no, I'm not going to assume that someone did that. Obi-Wan gets insight to the plan, shares that information with the Council, and apparently they just went with it anyway. That's why I like the idea of Sifo-Dyas being a Jedi Master with the power of foresight, and being someone who is like Cassandra from Greek mythology-a seer who can see the future but no one believes. I mean, the Jedi are classic Greek hubris material, so that type of character would have fit well.
The Clone Wars and the emergency that begins said war in addition to the Jedi being blinded by the Dark Side (by their own admission) leads them to decided to use the Clone Army that was supposedly made for them by one of their own. The Council was going to investigate the matter but the crisis spiraled out of control too quickly for them to act, and instead they had to react to the crisis and used the tools provided. The Jedi Council, specifically Yoda, knew something was wrong, but also knew they could not truly investigate the issued until the Clone Wars had ended, and thus this spurs the Jedi to find ways to end the war quicker (easier...with more seductive ways to bring the peace). The Jedi began trying to hunt down the Separatist leadership, and once they figured out there was still an unknown Sith Lord besides Dooku out there, attempted to track down Darth Sidious. The Jedi would get close to the truth several times, but Palpatine would always find a way to prevent them from getting enough knowledge to derive his actual plan and his identity as the Sith Lord. He would also find distractions for various Jedi that might get too close to the truth, sending off Jedi Masters or Anakiin Skywalker away at critical times when the truth could have come out.
To assume that nobody did anything about it at all is equally speculative and unsupported by evidence.
Ithekro said:
We do not know for a fact that they did not investigate. In Legends EU it was said specifically that Yoda investigated the matter. The problem is that their opponent is not the careless type. There is no trail of bread crumbs lying around, no smoking gun waiting to be found if only they would have done something. It is not that simple. Investigation would likely have hit dead ends.
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Mostly dead ends. There were still some bits of a trail. At least in TCW, but each of them was silenced, in turn, by the Sith Lords....personally. Near the end of the war, the Jedi did suspect that the clones might be used for some devious purpose, but due to the war, they could not afford to go without said clone troopers, so they resigned themselves to win the war, then figure out what was going on.
These clues did lead them to finding out now only Count Dooku's Sith name (and thus supporting the idea that the Sith had something to do with the Clone Army) but not too long after that they found out that Dooku was not the Sith Master they had been searching the galaxy for the last twelve or thirteen years, finding the name Sidious to be the master. Yoda did find out some key pieces of information late in the war, but seems to have decide not to share that information as the visions seem to indicate that what was coming was unavoidable, but that he could make sure the galaxy had hope for the eventual defeat of the Sith Lords.
It is interesting that of all the Jedi, Anakin seems to trust Yoda far more than most, and will tell him things that Anakin won't even admit to Obi-wan. Though to be fair Anakin trusts Palpatine even more than Yoda. Yoda did have the opportunity to set Anakin down a lighter path, but it is also possible that that path would have made the galaxy even darker, should Palpatine kill the Chosen One and prevent the coming of the Skywalker twins. At which point, there is no hope. Only Clones killing Jedi and darkness.
These clues did lead them to finding out now only Count Dooku's Sith name (and thus supporting the idea that the Sith had something to do with the Clone Army) but not too long after that they found out that Dooku was not the Sith Master they had been searching the galaxy for the last twelve or thirteen years, finding the name Sidious to be the master. Yoda did find out some key pieces of information late in the war, but seems to have decide not to share that information as the visions seem to indicate that what was coming was unavoidable, but that he could make sure the galaxy had hope for the eventual defeat of the Sith Lords.
It is interesting that of all the Jedi, Anakin seems to trust Yoda far more than most, and will tell him things that Anakin won't even admit to Obi-wan. Though to be fair Anakin trusts Palpatine even more than Yoda. Yoda did have the opportunity to set Anakin down a lighter path, but it is also possible that that path would have made the galaxy even darker, should Palpatine kill the Chosen One and prevent the coming of the Skywalker twins. At which point, there is no hope. Only Clones killing Jedi and darkness.
That would track except as we saw in TCW, the Kaminoans explicitly know Dooku as Tyranus, so it's less likely he impersonated Sifo-Dyas and more likely the pretended to be acting on Sifo-Dyas's behalf after the order had already been placed.
The money is a huge plot hole since no matter which way you cut it, it doesn't make sense.
Lets say for the sake of argument that Palpatine was paying for it from the Republic's black budget. If so then that's a direct tie between his office and the actions of a suspected Sith Lord and even Padawan could trace.
If on the other hand he funnelled the money though other means, like say via the Muuns and through various shell corporations then the apparent lack of a paper trail should have made the Jedi *even more* suspicious.
I suppose the only way around it would be if Sifo-Dyas somehow abused his authority on the council to divert funds from the Republic's treasury, possibly with the help of Valorum's aid? Given their upbringing Jedi aren't exactly known for their business acumen. They barely understand how money works so it'd take a high level bureaucrat to pull this off without anyone noticing trillions of credits being diverted to some outer rim world.
Maybe the money is what alerted Sidious to this in the first place? It's likely he had significant secret funds of his own and possibly feelers out to detect when someone else was secretly moving large amounts of money around off the books.
That's fair, but there isn't much evidence that they did investigated anything. If they did, it may have accomplished little but I would have liked to seen some effort from the Jedi. Again, I credit the novelization for giving som hints that they almost found the Sith Lord and tracked him to the Chancellor's office. The novel givs the Jedi more credit than the films do.
Which one did you mean?
Again, it's not just "do something" but showing that the Jedi are putting some effort in to this conspiracy that they just discovered upon through Obi-Wan. Even if it leads to a dead end, it wouldn't feel like the characters are blindly accepting their new role as generals.
What @Ikthekro in this post reads really well, and I follow it just fine. But, when I watched it in the films, the characters come across truly oblivious to the different clues.
I don't think the Jedi would have found anything if they had "done something" but I want to feel like they are trying and are not just fall guys for the bad guy's plan. For me, that's the difference between interesting protagonists and blind set pieces. Also, I'm wanting to see it in the film, not explained years later in a TV show, and not via a book.
My guess is that if/when the Jedi Council dig deep enough, they will see that everything has been properly documented and budgeted for, with all the appropriate committees approving everything, but black enough that they had to dig really deep to find it.
Think CIA - only some congressional subcommittees even know whats going on there.
Think CIA - only some congressional subcommittees even know whats going on there.
Appeal to ignorance fallacy.
I would have liked to see them go to the bathroom once in a while. Holding it in for the entire duration of the prequel trilogy can't have been good for their Force ability and thus likely contributed to the rise of the Empire.
So in other words the outcome would have been the same... meaning that (according to this premise) what we ultimately see on screen is identical to what we would see if we were able to look into the alternate timeline where the Jedi had gotten off their lazy asses, given a shit and actually done something.
I mean, it's almost as if ROTS is a film set in that timeline!
Ok, fair point. But, it doesn't change the fact that they appear in the films to just fall in to the general/military role, when Mace argues that they are "keepers of the peace, not soldiers". However, by the end of the film, they are soldiers, with the Jedi leading troopers in to battle.
So, to follow your argument, if the outcome is the same, we should not be shown the Jedi trying to be protagonists? We should just assume they did the thing, it didn't affect anything, and they blindly accepted being generals and got killed?
I'm glad you enjoyed that film and those characters. I did not.