ROTS Palpatine vs Jedi posse

[USS Firefly]

Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin. These Jedi could not last one minute against Sidious yet they were Jedi Masters. Okay, Sidious was porwerful but I think that battle was an offense to said masters. Lucas should have chosen to let'em die with Order 66. They way it went just really didnt do ir for me. What do you guys think?

 

[Voth commando1]

Palpatine is the product of a thousand years of sith preparation, growth and training. He is that powerful.

Give Fisto credit he lasted a few seconds longer than the rest and WIndu that he arguably won.

That scene is to show just how incredibly super-duper amazing and strong Palpatine is only the best of the best of the Jedi can withstand him as demonstrated in ROTS

 

[USS Firefly]

In my opinion it show how incompetent the Jedi masters are, they train from infant every day with their lightsaber and fighting for three years in the clone wars and couldn't survive 1 minute?

 

[Reverend]

Palpatine is the product of a thousand years of sith preparation, growth and training. He is that powerful.

Give Fisto credit he lasted a few seconds longer than the rest and WIndu that he arguably won.

That scene is to show just how incredibly super-duper amazing and strong Palpatine is only the best of the best of the Jedi can withstand him as demonstrated in ROTS

In my opinion it show how incompetent the Jedi masters are, they train from infant every day with their lightsaber and fighting for three years in the clone wars and couldn't survive 1 minute?

It's both, really. Yes, Palpatine really is that powerful and yes, the Jedi were that unprepared.

I recently read through the prequel novelizations and the RotS one has an interesting insight on this point. In a nutshell it posits that the Jedi spent the last 1000 years training in how to fight the last war, while the Sith spent that whole time *planning* the next one.
The implication being that the last war against the Sith looked pretty much like this. Hordes of furious Sith warriors facing ranks of stalwart Jedi Knights. Thing is, since Darth Bane the Sith have mastered subtly while the Jedi have stagnated.

Consider how few Jedi in the last millennium would have faced another force user in single combat. Most of them are more used to deflecting blaster bolts that parrying sabre thrusts. Add to that Palpatine's raw power as he just explodes out of his chair and cuts down two of them before they can even react. Admittedly it's wasn't staged particularly convincingly as neither Jackson or McDiarmid are particularly experienced swordsmen, but the concept is sound.

It's not something that comes across very well on screen, but remember that they've already said that the ability of the Jedi to use the force is being diminished. By the end of the war they were practically hobbled, thanks mostly to Palpatine.

 

[Solariabsg25]

It's both, really. Yes, Palpatine really is that powerful and yes, the Jedi were that unprepared.

I recently read through the prequel novelizations and the RotS one has an interesting insight on this point. In a nutshell it posits that the Jedi spent the last 1000 years training in how to fight the last war, while the Sith spent that whole time *planning* the next one.
The implication being that the last war against the Sith looked pretty much like this. Hordes of furious Sith warriors facing ranks of stalwart Jedi Knights. Thing is, since Darth Bane the Sith have mastered subtly while the Jedi have stagnated.

Consider how few Jedi in the last millennium would have faced another force user in single combat. Most of them are more used to deflecting blaster bolts that parrying sabre thrusts. Add to that Palpatine's raw power as he just explodes out of his chair and cuts down two of them before they can even react. Admittedly it's wasn't staged particularly convincingly as neither Jackson or McDiarmid are particularly experience swordsmen, but the concept is sound.

It's not something that comes across very well on screen, but remember that they've already said that the ability of the Jedi to use the force is being diminished. By the end of the war they were practically hobbled, thanks mostly to Palpatine.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

For a millennia, the Jedi have had very little practical experience facing Force-Users in battle (apart from those mentioned in the Legends EU), and none against actual fully-trained Sith. Maul, Dooku and Palpatine were trained from the beginning to face Force users. Jedi have fallen in battle before, some under mysterious circumstances. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that some of these were set up to become live targets for Sith apprentices to dispatch in order to test their skills?

Maul was a mere apprentice, yet was able to hold his own against both one of the most skilled Jedi in existence, and his Padawan, arguably only losing as he let his overconfidence and arrogance overwhelm him allowing a moment of triumph to distract him rather than finishing Obi Wan off. Dooku had to retreat from Yoda after holding his own in the encounter, and this was following his defeat of both Obi Wan and Anakin.

The Jedi had abandoned any study of the Dark Side, while the Sith embraced the study of BOTH sides of The Force, which could have given them an unbelievable advantage.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Palpatine threw the Jedi off by using the amazing tactic of slowly telegraphing his next move and then stabbing them with his lightsaber instead of slashing at them. And Kit Fisto was all like "Aww, why you stab im in da chest, mon? Bad form. I'm gon kill y... oh shit."

 

[Voth commando1]

In my opinion it show how incompetent the Jedi masters are, they train from infant every day with their lightsaber and fighting for three years in the clone wars and couldn't survive 1 minute?

fighting battle droids and geonosians is a completely different universe than fighting top tier Sith Lords.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I would agree with Reverend that this particular fight was poorly choreographed, total opposite of the Phantom Menace, a d the one low point of dogs for me.

They should have been thrown off by Force telekenetics or force lightning

 

[fireproof78]

The Jedi are incompetent and unprepared for fighting a Sith Lord. Ridiculous, given that they had ten years post TPM to recognize the Sith were returning and were aware of the "Rule of Two," so incompetence is the correct term.

Palptine is that good. He has waited his entire life, and his life is the product of a 1000 years of Sith plotting to destroy the Jedi forever. Is it poorly portrayed in the films? Yes, but that's due to choreography change at the last minute that undid months of training Gilliard had done with the stunt men.

tl:dr-It's both or what @Reverend said.

 

[Ithekro]

The novel points out the Palpatine continues to manipulate the situation right up the moment he strikes. The manages to get one of them to drop his guard in order to try to "sense the truth". In the moment that Jedi does so, Palpatine strikes so quickly that the man is dead in a second and the one next to him is reacting to this surprise as Palpatine cuts him down as well. Fisto holds out for a minute or so but Palpatine is too fast for him. Windu is the only one fast enough to keep up with Palpatine in the room.

In The Clone Wars cartoons, Palpatine goes to face his returned former apprentice, Darth Maul and Maul's new student Savage. He finds them to be rivals and pulls out two lightsabers and bests them fairly easily, with them lasting longer than the Jedi, mostly because Palpatine only needs one of them dead, and wants to enjoy the suffering and joy of combat (he's laughing for a bit of it...he's having fun). We know how good Maul was, and Palpatine outclasses him and tortures him. Remember, Palpatine trained Darth Maul how to fight with a lightsaber.

It is likely that the only Jedi that could have had even a chance against Palpatine were Mace Windu, due to his fighting style. Yoda, due to his mastery of the Force, and even that was a stalemate. Obi-wan might be able to handle the lightsaber combat due to him being the best defensive duelist in the Order, but Obi-wan would not be able to counter Palpatine's Force powers for very long. The last one would be Anakin Skywalker...because he's the Chosen One, and if he did let himself go, is more powerful than Palpatine, but that is what Palpatine wants, so that wouldn't work out for anyone in the galaxy.

Dooku is a superior duelist, but Palpatine could likely best him with his ferocity and Force powers.

 

[Reverend]

Maul was a mere apprentice, yet was able to hold his own against both one of the most skilled Jedi in existence, and his Padawan, arguably only losing as he let his overconfidence and arrogance overwhelm him allowing a moment of triumph to distract him rather than finishing Obi Wan off. Dooku had to retreat from Yoda after holding his own in the encounter, and this was following his defeat of both Obi Wan and Anakin.

Also pay attention to Qui Gon's first fight with Maul on Tatooine. He's barely holding his own, is forced to retreat and collapses immediately afterwards. Just holding his own for a minute took everything he had.
Then later on Naboo, when he's trapped behind the lasergate we again see how much the fight it costing him. Even that brief respite to re-centre himself isn't enough to last more than a minute against Maul solo.

I would agree with Reverend that this particular fight was poorly choreographed, total opposite of the Phantom Menace, a d the one low point of dogs for me.

They should have been thrown off by Force telekenetics or force lightning

I don't think the problem was the choreography itself per see (I mean just look at what the same team did with the Anakin/Obi Wan fight!), just that here, the two performers weren't experienced enough to pull off anything more elaborate. They clearly tried to cover it up with editing and close up shots, but there's only so much that can do.

As for why he didn't just lighting them or throw them back, consider: as he sees it, he's had to sit and talk with these blind fools for going on a decade now and it's only recently they've begun to mistrust him. He hates them and knows full well he can best them all. Indeed, I've said it before but the smart move here would have been to surrender and watch as the Jedi and the Republic tear each other apart.
I think the reason he didn't was because he just wanted to cut-loose and show them his power. Choreography aside, McDiarmid's performance is on point. He's relishing every moment of it. Watch the Yoda fight as well. He's giddy, practically drunk with the power he's finally letting loose after bottling up for so long. It's the greatest day of his life and he's going to relish every moment of it.

The Jedi are incompetent and unprepared for fighting a Sith Lord. Ridiculous, given that they had ten years post TPM to recognize the Sith were returning and were aware of the "Rule of Two," so incompetence is the correct term.

Well that's the nature of hubris, no? The Jedi were secure in their superiority. "We defeated thousands of Sith before, and now we outnumber them 5000-to-1. How hard could it be?"
Again, the novelization makes the point that the while the ancient Sith were ambitious, treacherous and savage, the inheritors of Darth Bane's doctrine had learned subtlety, discipline and above all: patience. All of them traditionally Jedi traits.
The Jedi were still stuck in the mindset of what the Sith were and not what they'd become.

 

[Ithekro]

Consider that it took then a few years to figure out that Dooku was a Sith Lord (specifically Tyrannus) and then with Dooku first having Ventress and later Savage as personal Dark Side using assassins, followed by Maul's reappearance, kept the Jedi thinking that Dooku was the Sith Master they were looking for until very late in the war when they started looking for a Darth Sidious. Yoda got close to the truth, but Palpatine keep managing to stay just a little bit ahead of the Jedi investigations. The irony is that Palpatine actually gives Yoda the chance to stop him by telling him the key to his plans (Anakin Skywalker) but Yoda refuses to just let Skywalker die in his dark side fueled vision quest.

 

[USS Firefly]

I agree that the Sith are better in lightsaber battle, I think that the the fight scene in the novel of ROTS was great

 

[USS Firefly]

The implication being that the last war against the Sith looked pretty much like this. Hordes of furious Sith warriors facing ranks of stalwart Jedi Knights. Thing is, since Darth Bane the Sith have mastered subtly while the Jedi have stagnated.

If you train for those kind of battles, you should be better prepared to fight a force wielder, although I a agree that Sidious is a little bit out of their leaque

 

[WebLurker]

I simply took it to mean that Palpatine surprised them (they may have expected a struggle but I'm not sure if they were planning for a master duelist). Also, Palpatine was master-level swordsman, so I think the point was that most of them were outclassed from the get-go.

 

[Reverend]

If you train for those kind of battles, you should be better prepared to fight a force wielder, although I a agree that Sidious is a little bit out of their leaque

This is one of those things that highlights the difference between learning from a book and learning from experience. They haven't had any Sith out to murder them to death in over a millennium on which to practice. All they have is theory, philosophy, fighting stances to learn by rote and some very dusty accounts from long dead Masters.
None of which can prepare you for a furious Sith Lord determined to cut you in half faster than you can blink.

 

[fireproof78]

Consider that it took then a few years to figure out that Dooku was a Sith Lord (specifically Tyrannus) and then with Dooku first having Ventress and later Savage as personal Dark Side using assassins, followed by Maul's reappearance, kept the Jedi thinking that Dooku was the Sith Master they were looking for until very late in the war when they started looking for a Darth Sidious. Yoda got close to the truth, but Palpatine keep managing to stay just a little bit ahead of the Jedi investigations. The irony is that Palpatine actually gives Yoda the chance to stop him by telling him the key to his plans (Anakin Skywalker) but Yoda refuses to just let Skywalker die in his dark side fueled vision quest.

Which is odd because the Jedi seemed in denial that Dooku would even murder someone in AOTC much less be a Sith Lord. It also is interesting that the Jedi were either slow in their pursuit of leads on the other Sith Lord after Maul's death, or Palpatine had been leading them on dead ends for the last ten years.

 

[Reverend]

^ I think cutting off Anakin's arm, shooting lightning at Yoda and starting a galaxy wide war convinced the High Council that Dooku wasn't entirely on the up-and-up after all.

As for leads on Sidious: as we later learned, Maul's body was never recovered and presumably Palpatine had his ship removed from Naboo so the only thing the Jedi had to go on was Obi Wan's testimony and even then what did he really know? Not much. Just that a tattooed up Zabrak had training and abilities similar to that of Jedi. I presume they learned his name from Nute Gunray and/or rune haako since there's no other way they information could have gotten out there, but beyond that, they seemed to keep quiet. One can only infer Palpatine bought their silence with the promise of protection from prosecution.

With that, the trail would go very cold for at least a decade. For all they knew, Maul was the master and his apprentice was some 12 year old zealot, out there alone in the galaxy with no resources. Of course when Dooku revealed his true nature, the assumption probably was that he was the Master and Ventress was his new apprentice. I think they even mistakenly refer to her as a Sith in TCW. This appeared to be confirmed when they tracked Sifo-Dias's murder to Darth Tyranus. Though Yoda would later learn that Darth Sidious was the true master, it was only via a force vision that this information came to him and without any further evidence or indication of his true identity, the investigation again stalled.

Really from their perspective Sidious could have been almost any of the thousands of corrupt Senators and functionaries on Coruscant. I recall in the novelization they never seriously considered Palpatine as a suspect, only that he was a puppet of the Sith Lord. Indeed I think it even mentioned they felt Mas Amedda was a more likely candidate!

 

[Ithekro]

It a mix of the trail ran cold after Maul's death, and false leads planted by Palpatine to eliminate rivals or threats to his undisputed rule once the Jedi were gone. This is one reason why the returned Maul was useful to Palpatine, it diverted attention from himself for another year. It didn't help that some Jedi started to turn to the Dark Side during the Clone Wars as well, clouding things even more. Once they figured Dooku was a Sith, they started to assume he had been Maul's master, and it was only very late in the war that they found out there was another they hadn't found yet. Yoda was even able to find a name "Sidious", but Palpatine eluded them up to the end. And even once found, it was hard for the Jedi to assume he was as powerful as they found his to be...too late of course, since they had known him for over a decade with not a clue he has any non-political powers. They still sent four Jedi Masters after him, when they usually only send one or two with maybe a Padawan or two in tow after Sith Lords like Dooku or Maul.

Basically while they didn't quite underestimate Palpatine's power, they underestimated his ability to control the situation to his liking. In the novel that entire attack against the first two Jedi are recorded (audio only) from a hidden unit in Palpatine's desk. He is very careful about choosing his words to make it seem like the Jedi are taking him without cause and starting a coup. He even goes into the hallway and called for help after slaughtering the two Jedi, only to leap back to his desk and destroy his own hidden microphone before smiling and continuing the fight with Mace and Fisto. This recording, damaged as it was, was what he played to the Senate as justification for Order 66 and the Declaration of the Empire.

 

[Jedman67]

From the bits that I saw of Order 66, the clone troopers were able to slaughter the jedi masters by the dozens? hundreds? with only a bare handful escaping. The early EU novels suggest that a half-trained jedi facing a dozen stormtroopers was under-matched, so the ratio of CT to dead jedi struck me as a little forced.