Ronald D Moore

[rocketscientist]

If it hadn't been for Voyager, Ron wouldn't have had anything to rebel against.

Exactly. It's good to know I'm not the only one to realise this.

If making Voyager more like nBSG were to mean making nBSG more like Voyager, it would not be a trade I'd want to make.

And fwiw, I find worth in both.

I think they're both worthwhile too.

That said, I'll take BSG over VOY any day of the week, because BSG was, imo, more dramatic and unique. It's just a better show.

 

[Magisterfrodo]

I'm a huge BSG fan, and I would have liked to have seen Moore have more of an influence on VOY then he did. I don't think he would have been allowed to make VOY like nuBSG is, but a few arc based stories with repercussions felt throughout the rest of the series would have been ok with me.

I agree completely. I think Ron Moore would have made Voyager a little more like DS9 rather than like nuBSG, and that would have been a good thing. He would have capitalized on the vast amount of potential that existed in Voyager but which was squandered, such as:
1. Real, ongoing struggle of Maquis members trying to fit in
2. Real consequences of bringing on the Equinox survivors
3. Real consequences of being isolated in space for many years
4. Real consequences of Janeway's not-infrequent flying off the handle (like in Equinox)
5. Real supply issues.
6. Developing all existing characters rather than bringing on attractive female Borg and later Borg children.
7. Seeing people take on new roles over the course of time as they, you know, grow and develop.
8. The ability to deal with issues over long periods of time rather than wrapping them up in a single episode (or two-parter).

I'm sure there's much more, but that's a good start.

 

[rocketscientist]

Sometimes I wonder why RDM joined Voyager in the first place. You'd think he and TPTB would have a little chat and figure out their differences beforehand.

Well, from his comments, he thought that he and Braga were on the same page before he came over to VOY. When he got there, he found out that Braga had done a 180 on him.

That's Moore's version of the events anyway.

 

[rocketscientist]

Sometimes I wonder why RDM joined Voyager in the first place. You'd think he and TPTB would have a little chat and figure out their differences beforehand.

I believe he said that he joined Voyager with the understanding he would be one of the co-creators of the next Trek series.

Really? I never heard that.

 

[rocketscientist]

I believe he said that he joined Voyager with the understanding he would be one of the co-creators of the next Trek series.

Something tells me Braga wasn't happy with that. Iirc he didn't treat Moore too well did he?

My understanding was the working relationship between the two on Voyager was not nearly as smooth as it had been when they were cowriters. Moore described the writing room as not being as open for discussion as the TNG and DS9 writing rooms had been, and that was the source of the problems.

I don't know how Braga would have felt about Moore co-creating the new Trek, but since I think it was supposed to be Berman, Braga and Moore I don't know that it would have bothered Braga overmuch. After all, the two had always worked well together and been friends prior to Voyager. (And they appear to have repaired their friendship since.)

That's true, Moore has said that they've mended fences. I also seem to recall him saying, though, that he doesn't think he'll ever write with Braga again.

 

[Warp Coil]

If it took a bad working experience on VOY to get Ron D. Moore to develop nuBSG, then that's fine by me.

While I can see how some may not like just how dark nuBSG is, it certainly has more layers, texture and realism than VOY ever had.

 

[RobertScorpio]

If it took a bad working experience on VOY to get Ron D. Moore to develop nuBSG, then that's fine by me.

While I can see how some may not like just how dark nuBSG is, it certainly has more layers, texture and realism than VOY ever had.

I am the last person who you would expect to defend Voyager, I didn't ever care for it that much. However. nuBSG, I think, will be long forgotten when it finally, FINALLY, ends. What started off as a realistic TV show had become mired in some soap-opera antics (that whole death scene with Callie was so DALLASish) and its own religious overtones, it's grip on reality isn't as real as you might think it is. Add to that? Season two was just a dark dreary season that scared most of the viewers off. Then they tried that same dark crappy world stuff with Bionic Woman and look what they got..

nuBSG is a good show, it is not a great show. And it just isn't fun to watch. I compared it sometimes to getting your teeth pulled. You knew going in the drama and dark dreary episodes were waiting for you. But would you sit through it again? I doubt it. DVD sales for Galactica are not exactly robust in any way. I bought season one and that was it.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[startrekwatcher]

Part of the problem I have is the way Moore is treated almost as a god among men when it comes to BSG and his writing.

Voyager was far, far, far from perfect but so is nBSG. nBSG hasn't always developed storylines or repercussions either. Some have been flat out dropped or never panned out. And while I'm all for an expansive cast of characters offering different perspectives I find that BSG might have too many resulting in characters being given short shrift or worse yet the writers merely throwing an underwhelming bone at them. The Cylons as far as adversaries are not that interesting.

Moore seems to struggle with being able to pull together an episode without running over and having numerous scenes left on the cutting room floor leaving the recaps to insert them which is very awkward because you are left wondering what did I miss or did I forget something. As a showrunner he should have a better grip on that sort of thing. And I know even with an ambitious epic drama like BSG that you can juggle a massive cast of characters and plot lines and still have a solid hour without tons of heavy editing one need only to look at Lost or Heroes. That is also another thing I take issue with--the show is not that well-plotted. It is obviously not Moore's strong suite.

And BSG has plenty of underwhelming filler--Black Market, Scar, Day in the Life, The Passage, Tighe Me Tighe Me down etc. The show also had its painfully overwrought romances and the show has managed to remove any sense of surprise anymore with their "twists" since the show has shown time and again that if it dark, grim or depressing that is the direction it is going so it guts the impact.

And while VOY might have had a string of uninteresting bland characters like Kim, Chakotay etc I didn't find them nearly as unlikeable or off-putting as a large segment of the BSG character roster.

nuBSG is a good show, it is not a great show. And it just isn't fun to watch. I compared it sometimes to getting your teeth pulled. You knew going in the drama and dark dreary episodes were waiting for you. But would you sit through it again? I doubt it.

Agreed. Its first year and a half was strong but after that my attention and interest waned significantly. BSG feels less like entertainment and more academic. And you are right I have absolutely no desire to purchase the DVDs or rewatch the series.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Part of the problem I have is the way Moore is treated almost as a god among men when it comes to BSG and his writing.

Voyager was far, far, far from perfect but so is nBSG. nBSG hasn't always developed storylines or repercussions either. Some have been flat out dropped or never panned out. And while I'm all for an expansive cast of characters offering different perspectives I find that BSG might have too many resulting in characters being given short shrift or worse yet the writers merely throwing an underwhelming bone at them. The Cylons as far as adversaries are not that interesting.

Moore, while he's done a great deal to advance what American SF-TV can and should do, is at times stuck in the television mindset. He seems unwilling to pull triggers and deal with those consequences in nuBSG. Likewise, he doesn't seem to want to show the interstitial choices that lead a character to point Y. He just shows point A then several episodes down shows us point Y. For example, Romo Lampkin.

 

[Warp Coil]

I am the last person who you would expect to defend Voyager, I didn't ever care for it that much. However. nuBSG, I think, will be long forgotten when it finally, FINALLY, ends. What started off as a realistic TV show had become mired in some soap-opera antics (that whole death scene with Callie was so DALLASish) and its own religious overtones, it's grip on reality isn't as real as you might think it is. Add to that? Season two was just a dark dreary season that scared most of the viewers off. Then they tried that same dark crappy world stuff with Bionic Woman and look what they got..

nuBSG is a good show, it is not a great show. And it just isn't fun to watch. I compared it sometimes to getting your teeth pulled. You knew going in the drama and dark dreary episodes were waiting for you. But would you sit through it again? I doubt it. DVD sales for Galactica are not exactly robust in any way. I bought season one and that was it.

Rob
Scorpio

Oh, BSG is far from perfect. There are episodes or instances where things just don't work for me, or don't quite make sense.

And comparing VOY to BSG is tricky, because they aren't exactly the same type of show. They share some elements in their premise - a group of people forced to work together to find Earth.

I just think that BSG has pulled off the struggle of survival a lot better than VOY. VOY was always just too happy of a show - the characters got along too well, their spirits never seemed crushed, and no one seemed all that troubled by the prospect of never seeing home again. To me, that isn't realistic. It isn't human.

BSG is dark - sometimes very dark. But I find the characters fascinating, flawed, complex. I find their struggles interesting and dramatic. And maybe you aren't entertained by the show, but I sure am. I own the DVDs and re-watch my favorite episodes and arcs. Maybe it just isn't your type of show, and that's fine.

 

[kimc]

I own the DVDs and re-watch my favorite episodes and arcs. Maybe it just isn't your type of show, and that's fine.

I own all the dvds for both nuBSG and Voyager. So far I've rewatched the BSG ones more often and each time I notice something new. That isn't to say the show is perfect - the whole Apollo/Starbuck/Anders/Dee thing was downright annoying. All the same at least they were willing to take some creative chances on the show and when something didn't work Moore had no problem admitting to it in the commentaries - he'll often describe what they were going for, why they thought it would work and why they fell short. I find it an interesting insight into the creative process.

As for Voyager as imperfect as it is I will always love it. Who knows - I may even be able to stomach re-watching the second half of Season 7 some day!

 

[RobertScorpio]

I own the DVDs and re-watch my favorite episodes and arcs. Maybe it just isn't your type of show, and that's fine.

I own all the dvds for both nuBSG and Voyager. So far I've rewatched the BSG ones more often and each time I notice something new. That isn't to say the show is perfect - the whole Apollo/Starbuck/Anders/Dee thing was downright annoying. All the same at least they were willing to take some creative chances on the show and when something didn't work Moore had no problem admitting to it in the commentaries - he'll often describe what they were going for, why they thought it would work and why they fell short. I find it an interesting insight into the creative process.

As for Voyager as imperfect as it is I will always love it. Who knows - I may even be able to stomach re-watching the second half of Season 7 some day!

Perhaps...but I have watched THE LIVING LEGEND far more than I have watched Pegasus or Razor...I still think Lloyd Bridges was the better Cain..Always have..always will..

Rob
scorpio

 

[kimc]

Perhaps...but I have watched THE LIVING LEGEND far more than I have watched Pegasus or Razor...I still think Lloyd Bridges was the better Cain..Always have..always will..

I'm one of those odd ducks who believes you can enjoy both versions of the show.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Ron Moore has as many weaknesses as he does strengths. I still find BSG to be an excellent show, most of the time. And, while it is not perfect, I find they put more effort into the writing, acting, and directing than we typically saw in Voyager. Never have I seen a BSG episode and thought, "gee, that actor's really phoning it in today."

I would much rather a show gamble and suffer the occasional misfire than to simply never try. I seriously doubt Voyager would have taken on a BSG-like tone, but I think if Moore's input into the show had been welcomed, Voyager might have been a better show. I think most of its characters could have been developed a lot more, and the show rarely dealt seriously with the issues the crew faced. Both of those aspects play to Moore's strengths. It could have been a better show for his involvement.

But it's not all bad. As others have said, his negative experiences with Voyager clearly informed his attitude toward BSG, and I'm quite happy with that.

 

[kimc]

I seriously doubt Voyager would have taken on a BSG-like tone, but I think if Moore's input into the show had been welcomed, Voyager might have been a better show. I think most of its characters could have been developed a lot more, and the show rarely dealt seriously with the issues the crew faced. Both of those aspects play to Moore's strengths. It could have been a better show for his involvement.

I quite agree. It seems the only characters that got any real development the later years were Seven and the Doctor and even some of those developments were repeated ad nauseum. There was a lot of untapped potential in other characters/relationships (J/C, the Tuvok-Chakotay conflict, the Janeway-B'Elanna friendship, etc) that I think Moore may have spend more time exploring. As for situations I think Moore would have been more inclined to have Voyager show damage more often, have the crew low on resources, etc.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I seriously doubt Voyager would have taken on a BSG-like tone, but I think if Moore's input into the show had been welcomed, Voyager might have been a better show. I think most of its characters could have been developed a lot more, and the show rarely dealt seriously with the issues the crew faced. Both of those aspects play to Moore's strengths. It could have been a better show for his involvement.

I quite agree. It seems the only characters that got any real development the later years were Seven and the Doctor and even some of those developments were repeated ad nauseum. There was a lot of untapped potential in other characters/relationships (J/C, the Tuvok-Chakotay conflict, the Janeway-B'Elanna friendship, etc) that I think Moore may have spend more time exploring. As for situations I think Moore would have been more inclined to have Voyager show damage more often, have the crew low on resources, etc.

I think his trying to fix that show after it had already gutted some of the drama (Maqis vs Starfleet) early on (mistake) would have seem forced. I think suddenly having the ship show damaged near the end of the voyage would have been hard to swallow.

If anything, as you said, he could have spruced up some of the character interactions with each other.

I think Voyager had real great potential to really take TREK to a new level. I think, all in all, it is a good show and I like most of what I have seen. I just wished they had developed more of the characters and, in the final four episodes, show them get home and deal with those issues.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[number6]

There is no question about the quality of RDM's work. I met the man in the 90s and he seemed like a nice guy.

The problem with VOY was that he signed on after the show had been going for a few years, expecting the kind of freedom he had with TNG and DS9, both syndicated shows.
Most of VOY's issues stem from UPN interference. It is unrealistic to think that RDM could just step into an already established show and expect the kind of control he was hoping for.

This secret deal about co-creating the next series is a new rumour to me. i would love to see some documented proof of this. I have real doubts about its veracity.

I have no doubt that most of what he said in that interview addressing his short tenure on VOY really happened, but I can't help but wonder how much he'd be trashing the writing on Trek if nuBSG had failed.

 

[D Man]

Just as an aside, does anyone know if any of the other DS9 writers were offered a spot on the VOY staff after DS9 ended?

 

[kimc]

Most of VOY's issues stem from UPN interference. It is unrealistic to think that RDM could just step into an already established show and expect the kind of control he was hoping for.

Now that you mention it RDM often refers to how grateful he is that scifi allows him the creative freedom that it does. It's not often that network suits are willing to take risks.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Just as an aside, does anyone know if any of the other DS9 writers were offered a spot on the VOY staff after DS9 ended?

In the long interview RDM gave regarding his Voyager stint, I think he implied the other writers were offered spots, but they all decided to move on, and even warned him against going to VOY. At the least, he made it sound like some of the DS9 writers could have gone to VOY, had they wanted to.