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Romulus & Vulcan

And here you guys just about had me convinced the Romulan Empire was similar to the Roman Empire or even the British Empire, I hope in the future we can find out how the empires of Star Trek treat their indigenous citizens, hopefully Myasishchev is wrong!

James
 
What a fucking dumb map. The USF has territory all the way around the Romulan Empire?

lol yeah

This mostly conjectural map based on obscure and inconsistent facts about the territorial holdings of non existent interstellar entities is so fucking dumb because the Federation has territory all the way around the Romulan Empire.
 
What a fucking dumb map. The USF has territory all the way around the Romulan Empire?

lol yeah

This mostly conjectural map based on obscure and inconsistent facts about the territorial holdings of non existent interstellar entities is so fucking dumb because the Federation has territory all the way around the Romulan Empire.

It has territory around the R.S.E. only on one plane. Try to remember that space is three dimensional.

* * *

As for the Romulan form of government, for whatever it's worth, the novels have established that the Romulan Star Empire is a semi-constitutional monarchy. The Emperor of the Romulan Star Empire is usually a ceremonial figurehead, but some have gained real power; the Praetor is the usual head of government, though he or she sometimes competes with the Emperor or Empress for power; and the Senate remains the legislature, control of which is the key to controlling the Empire. Other factions vying for influence (even if not power) include the Imperial Fleet and the Tal Shiar.

It's never been established if Senators are popularly elected, though we know that the Romulans maintain an aristocracy. It's possible that the Romulan Star Empire, then, is a semi-democratic system a la Great Britain in the 18th and 19th Centuries.
 
Its four fold-out pieces, from Star Charts, are very poster-sized when put together.

I never considered tearing them out and putting them on my wall, but it's not a half-bad idea.
 
Naah. The Cardassian border was established there. There was no mention what, if anything, that border was, well, bordering.
Yeah, but wouldn't it be a bit hard for the Romulans to conduct an invasion if their supply lines had to go through Federation space or all the way around?
Yet its Cardassian counterpart had done the very thing, isolating itself from Cardassia proper and hiding in a remote system.
But that system was still inside Cardassian teritory.
So, the Jem'Hadar are leaving Dominion controlled space, entering Romulan space, then entering the Neutral Zone to attack Federation ships. They wouldn't be able to do that if the Romulans and Cardassians didn't share a common border.
It was wartime. Nothing would limit the Dominion to operating within Cardassian borders; indeed, the very definition of the war was that the Dominion was operating beyond those. And the fact that there was a Dominion presence at the RNZ was a rude surprise to the Alpha Axis. That would hardly be the case if the RNZ was already close to the main front of the war (assuming one existed).
Again, wouldn't it be rather hard for the Dominion to operate so far from Cardassian teritory?

And there are further quotes that support the existence of the border: From the "Tears of the Prophets":
ROSS: I know, you've been saying that ever since the Romulans opened a second front against the Dominion. It took a while, but your message finally got through.
WORF: Why would the Dominion pull so many of their ships away from the border?
GARAK: Perhaps they've been sent to the Romulan front.
And from ITPM:
This morning, at oh-eight-hundred hours, station time... the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They've already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border.
So, we know there's something called a Romulan front. You could say it was just a part of the main front that the Romulans took over, but calling it a 'second' front wouldn't make much sense then.
We also see it took less than a day to strike all along the Cardassian border. Unless they had a cloaked fleet in waiting outside their space and near Cardassian space, which I seriously doubt, I don't see how they could achieve that without a pre-existing border.

The idea that it is actually the 'wedge' through Fed space that the Romulans attacked doesn't work for me. Dominion forces were supposedly mostly pushed back after 'Sacrifice of Angels' and were only recently back on the offensive with the capture of Betazed. How did they manage to reach the Roms border so soon? And why would it be called 'the Cardassian border'? Maybe if it was the Cardies that were speaking but those were Sisko's words.
2) The Dominion War region is based as faithfully as possible on the onscreen maps on DS9 War Room wall displays, depicting Cardassian expansion along the lower edge towards the right where a Romulan symbol ultimately appears. Such a development works best if the Romulans aren't initially in touch with Cardassia.
I can understand that. But honestly, I wouldn't put much credence in those maps. They were background material, made to look nice and have something for our characters to point at. By that standard we should accept all those background maps that show the Federation spanning a substantial part of the Galaxy, when even at the highest cited figure of 8000 ly it would be much smaller. Or that LCARS is actually made of random numbers.

But if you really have to take those maps into account, couldn't you say they were just showing the main front, where a part of Romulan forces was also deployed later in the war to support the Feds/Klingons, with a second, Romulan front also existing?
 
IMO this thread is such an intriguing discussion. There are just so many cool possibilities when portraying the Romulans.


So much to work with and so many great plot possibilities and themes: imperialism, democracy, nationalism, domination and expansionism, political friction w/in the Romulan elite, the galactic balance of power vs. the Federation. There's just so much to work w/ if you really enjoy the more serious side of Trek.


And that just makes Nemesis that much more disappointing.


The idea of an elite Romulan villain was fantastic. Exactly how TNG should have ended. So why couldn't they just make Shinzon a regular Romulan? Why the unnecessary and unbelievable Remus-clone-angle?? Why not just make him a Caesar-type Romulan -- someone who managed to squash political opposition and become a powerful emperor? An intelligent and multifaceted character that isn't just mindlessly set on revenge? Really make a plot where the long-term balance of galactic power could shift to the Rommies if he isn't stopped....throw in a cynical sense of humor and that character could have surpassed Khan if it was played correctly.


And why not give us some real Romulan culture and depict their empire, their senate, more of their homeworld, etc.? So much potential....


Sorry for the threadjacking rant....it just doesn't make since and there was so much to work with. Great thread though...have enjoyed reading these responses.
 
Can anybody help me with something? I went looking over at Memory Alpha for some info on the RSE but couldn't find what I was looking for, those early Romulans couldn't have formed the empire all on their own they had to establish a foothold on a planet first to have a base to operate from, they're bound to meet other space faring races in the region where they first settled, fighting some and establishing alliances with others to increase their numbers.
Now Iknow this will be speculation on the part of anyone who answers these questions, how many first generation Romulans imigrated from Vulcan, 10,000: 100,000: 500,000:1,000,000 or even more and how long do you think it took to move all of those early Romulans to their new homeworld?(Writers cramp....OUCH!)
Thank you!


James
 
those early Romulans couldn't have formed the empire all on their own they had to establish a foothold on a planet first to have a base to operate from


to my knowledge there hasn't ever been any indication that the Romulans had assistance from any other species when they created and expanded their empire.

Settling Romulus to their satisfaction may have taken some time, but they were a technologically advanced species already and could have easily planted smaller outposts in neighboring systems from the start.


they're bound to meet other space faring races in the region where they first settled, fighting some and establishing alliances with others to increase their numbers.
that's probably true -- but there's a good chance they'd be the most technologically advanced species in the region if they already traveled lightyears from their Vulcan. it's likely many of the races that long ago weren't advanced enough (think of humans at this time....FAR behind Vulcan/Romulan civilization) to fight against the kind of technology available to the Rommies. Good chance most species of that period would have been eager to avoid obliteration....if they didn't mistake them for gods.


how many first generation Romulans imigrated from Vulcan, 10,000: 100,000: 500,000:1,000,000 or even more and how long do you think it took to move all of those early Romulans to their new homeworld?
no clue about how many made the migration but if they traveled that far through space then they would have had the technology to construct permanent settlements on Romulus fairly quickly...especially since its atmosphere and environment were favorable. after the first permanent settlements, waves of new ships could have arrived.


I dont know this either but some of that might be determined by whether or not the Romulan flight from Vulcan was an organized, one-time mass exodus -- or a less coordinated and incremental event in which the Rommie population on Vulcan slowly dwindled away
 
Yeah, but wouldn't it be a bit hard for the Romulans to conduct an invasion if their supply lines had to go through Federation space or all the way around?

Perhaps. But that's also true of the Klingon invasion of Cardassia, and they managed just fine. This despite them being so desperate that, after clearing UFP space and reaching neutral space bordering on Cardassia, they chose a Federation-overseen installation for their final waypoint before launching the attack...

Clearly, supply lines in space warfare are not particularly important: it appears to be something of a standard strategy to send one decisively sized fleet to crush the opponent in one stroke, counting on surprise, overkill and speed.

Alternately, supply lines are easily maintained even across great distances, in fact due to those great distances: it takes major intelligence effort or phenomenal luck to find the enemy's supply ships in the depths of space.

Note the significant reach of the maneuver arrows on the DS9 wall maps. Apparently, borders mean little or nothing in space warfare. Fronts may form, in the sense of there being a defended line of star systems - but that apparently doesn't stop fleets from roaming and raiding.

But that system was still inside Cardassian teritory.

...Thereby upping the ante, because Cardassian territory was essentially hostile to the Obsidian Order enterprise.

Organizing one's forces for attack outside the safety of one's home turf is not particularly rare in Trek. Klingons did it in "Way of the Warrior". Everybody came to Bajor to do it in "In Purgatory's Shadow". The Feds organized impromptu fleets on frontier starbases ("Unification") and in deep space ("Descent"). And the Dominion had a mighty fleet hidden next to the Gamma end of the wormhole, weeks' travel away from actual Dominion space, in "In Purgatory's Shadow".

Apparently, while starships are remarkably self-sufficient war machines, it does pay to do a final regrouping just on the doorstep of the target. If you have cloaks and the enemy doesn't have an exceptionally good intelligence agency, you probably won't be noticed until it's too late. Or then you do want to be noticed, so that the enemy, who's already waiting for the inevitable, now waits for it in a place of your choosing, not his...

So, we know there's something called a Romulan front. You could say it was just a part of the main front that the Romulans took over, but calling it a 'second' front wouldn't make much sense then.

On your first two quotes, this second front would obviously be the one where the Dominion/Cardassian wedge attack is pushing against Romulan space. Formerly, those forces didn't threaten Romulus directly, but merely used that space for backstabbing action. Now, there's open military conflict at that interface - a second front, far removed from original Cardassian space and thus definitely deserving of the name.

On calling this new front "the Cardassian border", Sisko would be factually correct, but (as you say) using the enemy's lingo where he should be sprouting propaganda for the home team. However, the Romulans could have struck targets in old Cardassian space in addition to opening a second front, thereby excusing the third comment.

All of the above is in defense of the Star Charts interpretation, of course, not an objective analysis of the evidence. But it doesn't sound plausible for me to give Romulus and Cardassia a common border, when the oft-declared writer/art department intent (as translated to the few onscreen maps) was to have Romulans to the right, Cardassians to the left of the UFP. The Romulans were always described as the besieged, from their POV wronged party, incapable of the sort of expansion they'd prefer. The Cardassians in turn were bit players, at one point separated from the UFP by a big swath of neutral space and eventually held behind the DMZ. For these two to form any sort of an astrographical connection, one would have to extend a long pseudopod towards the other - for no good story reason, since all Romulan-Cardassian interaction before the war was described in terms of long distances and unlikely connections.

By that standard we should accept all those background maps that show the Federation spanning a substantial part of the Galaxy, when even at the highest cited figure of 8000 ly it would be much smaller.

Just for the heck of it, Star Charts actually integrates the perspective map from "Conspiracy" in the Alpha/Beta pages. It just assumes that map was something of a zoom-in, only spanning the area of the Alpha/Beta maps in the book. As for the top view in e.g. "The Emissary" or "The Chase", that doesn't necessarily describe the UFP, as no such labeling is visible. Dr. Galen could well be expected to use a map showing vast old galactic empires when explaining the itinenary of his latest research tour to Picard...

All Trek cartography is guesswork. Yet Star Charts tries to incorporate at least a little bit of "real" Star Trek into it, including the Probert and Okuda map graphics. Giving up on those would negate the whole purpose of the work.

It is, however, an outdated work. Not only would ENT change some of the facts there, but ST:NEM would give new data on the shape of the RNZ (as depicted on the floor mosaic of the Romulan Senate)... With that zigzag line, it can't easily be interpreted as an eggshell any more.

couldn't you say they were just showing the main front, where a part of Romulan forces was also deployed later in the war to support the Feds/Klingons, with a second, Romulan front also existing?

Quite possibly - and that second front wouldn't have to be anywhere near Romulan space, just like Churchill's second front against Hitler in Africa was nowhere near the British isles, or like his third in Italy still remained distant from his home turf.

However, the maps linger on the walls till the very end of the war, and the Romulan symbol stays where Romulan space in Star Charts is depicted as being. That sort of dictates the cartography of the war, and imposes limitations on prewar cartography as well. If that's where the Romulans were shown fighting in the war, then a prewar joint border would be unlikely since it should see fighting as well. And Cardassian space in its entirety is depicted in those wall maps, as a solid amber shape surrounded by black space in every direction.

...it's likely many of the races that long ago weren't advanced enough..

I don't really like this argument, because we know of several cultures that were very advanced thousands of centuries before Vulcans got their act together. The galaxy should be constantly populated by advanced cultures - but also constantly populated by mediocre and primitive ones, existing in the lacunae between their betters. Romulans might have stumbled onto a local empty spot. Or they may have stumbled onto the territory of somebody who isn't in the habit of contacting lesser species.

Remember that Earth wasn't contacted either, not by superior snobs like Vulcans, nor by superior conquerors like Klingons, not even by superior opportunists like the Ferengi or, say, the Tellarites. Contact probably just isn't all that common, unless the culture doing the contacting is at the exact right phase of its cultural, industrial and military development.

I don't know this either but some of that might be determined by whether or not the Romulan flight from Vulcan was an organized, one-time mass exodus -- or a less coordinated and incremental event in which the Rommie population on Vulcan slowly dwindled away

Considering that it happened roughly 2,000 years before the shows' present day, it would be perfectly possible to say that history recounts it as a mass exodus - but that this history is largely a fabrication and that the truth was less glorious and featured plenty of small groups and perhaps a little bit of return flow as well...

Timo Saloniemi
 
how many first generation Romulans imigrated from Vulcan, 10,000: 100,000: 500,000:1,000,000 or even more and how long do you think it took to move all of those early Romulans to their new homeworld?
Biologically, modern science believes a population of approximately 50,000 is needed to maintain genetic viability among the human species. My guess would be that Vulcans/Romulans would need as many, also.
 
Various population bottleneck notions posit a human species that was whittled down to significantly fewer than 50,000, though, including one theory that the human population was (prior to getting out of Africa) reduced to a measly two thousand! :o

Plus there's no real way of knowing how vulnerable Vulcans are to inbreeding depression (the penchant for the deleterious mutations, constantly generated by any population, to become predominant in a population because of low genetic diversity). I believe this factor would also depend on the composition of the original colonist population (a thousand unrelated individuals from across the globe versus two hundred and fifty nuclear families from the same geographic area--i.e., probably already somewhat inbred--for example). So calculating a minimal population size would be total guesswork.

For what it's worth, those dumb ridges could maybe be plausible with an extremely low initial population size, with one ridged mutant's dominant trait flowing throughout the general population--but they would not likely exist side-by-side with ridgeless Romulans, since the allele that causes ridges, whether dominant or not, would likely to be shared by everyone in a homozygotic fashion.

Another question, unrelated to population genetics, is what kind of crappy society would you get with two or even fifty thousand people?
 
What are the chances of there being a planet like Mintaka III located somewhere within the RSE, which at the time of the empire's formation was technically as advanced as the Romulans thus the Romulans couldn't defeat them outright?
The Romulans could've formed an alliance with them !?

James
 
In the movie Nemesis the Romulan Government was killed off by Shinzon and his Reman followers in a military coup, after Shinzon was killed and the Scimitar was destroyed the Romulans reestablished the government.
What form did the new government take because, they wanted peace with the Federation and apparantly they'd established some sort of relationship with Vulcan as evidenced by Star Trek 2009?

James
 
In the novels, the new form of government was "failed state." Your mileage may vary on the issue, but I think it sucks.
 
...Especially since previous writing, both on and off screen, suggests that Romulan government thrives on assassination, revolution and remake. Which shouldn't be a surprise, considering where they supposedly come from: the fiercely infighting old Vulcan.

Why would Romulus fail to rise again, after what looks like a fairly standard slave uprising and palace coup combined? Shinzon's "armies" supposedly didn't do much factual damage, either to physical property, to military strength, or to the power structures. Not within the framework of ST:NEM, at any rate. Do the novels tell that the Remans went on a rampage later on, destabilizing things? I understand there's a political split where some Romulans seek allies elsewhere - but that sounds an extremely un-Romulan thing to do! I mean, allies, yes - new landlords, never...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, I've read of it, not the works themselves... it might work out better in practice, but the fact that Tal'Aura is running one of the factions (albeit with Andreas Kastulas, which I'm sure is nice) makes me even more leery, because in a movie filled to the absolute brim with vapid, inscrutable motivation, she was even worse than the rest.

The thing about the Rommie state falling apart post-Nemesis is even more bizarre from what was apparently shown in Nemesis. As far as I can tell, Shinzon got ahold of a planet-destroyer with an advanced cloaking device and "ruled" the Romulan Empire only for as long as he was in orbit over the capital. As soon as he left to pursue the E-E, the reign of "Praetor Shinzon" was over.

I suppose the civil war could be interesting, with one side backed by the Feds and the other continuing the traditional animosity--I mean, I get it, it's the PRC and the RoC. Except, we already had that, because we already have a Taiwan called Vulcan. Its applicability (in the Tolkeinesque sense) is not even particularly topical, since the trend these days is economic and social reintegration.

And there's just the random wallbangers... like the notion that the RSE has "agricultural planets." Even if you don't have widespread replicator technology yourself--a planetary biosphere functions as one giant, solar-powered replicator. Plus, I find it pretty difficult to believe that the transportation costs of a FTL freighter outweigh the costs of growing some local maize.

Of course, it won't matter pretty soon, since Romulus is dead as an MRF.
 
As far as I can tell, Shinzon got ahold of a planet-destroyer with an advanced cloaking device and "ruled" the Romulan Empire only for as long as he was in orbit over the capital. As soon as he left to pursue the E-E, the reign of "Praetor Shinzon" was over.

Makes sense, I guess. Slave rebellions don't enjoy the support of the population, by and large. Yet they might be useful for those in power - so those in power would give the slaves an opening every now and then, but a limited one, one without permanent consequences. Shinzon might have received a bit of assistance in getting hold of that superweapon, but even with assistance his coup could not be expected to have much scope...

Plus, it's much more dramatic if Spartacus sails off in his galley than if he gets defeated in conventional scuffles at Romulus.

Except, we already had that, because we already have a Taiwan called Vulcan.

I don't see that as such a big obstacle, either dramatically or logically. After all, factionalism like that was supposedly the norm for the old Vulcans - it only makes sense that it continue on Romulus, in some form. But we get the impression that factionalism is short-lived on Romulus, with one side or the other eventually triumphing, and a balance of some sort prevailing overall. Perhaps this split in the Star Empire is just as temporary as the others, only somewhat larger in spatial scope?

Plus, I find it pretty difficult to believe that the transportation costs of a FTL freighter outweigh the costs of growing some local maize.

(By "outweigh" you mean "are lower than", I take it?)

The costs might be a negligible element in this - the key factor might be control and use of land. There would be certain political benefits to "holding farmland hostage" somewhere offworld. On the other hand, there would be certain economic benefits to moving the surface-area-consuming farming offworld for the most part, as opposed to sending the population off to those planets that can supply them with foodstuffs.

It does seem that "interstellar famine" is harsh reality in the Trek universe, and can be solved by the creation of farming worlds as suggested by Carol Marcus and as hinted at elsewhere in Trek. If an industrialized planet discovers warp or other interstellar access, and through that gets hold of even fancier technologies, said planet might well hit Malthusian ceilings long before it can think of a balanced solution to its problems. The easy solution then would be to use the warp drive for importing the food. Japan is something of a real-world example of this. And just as with Japan, the Trek worlds might be heavily dependent on imported energy along with imported food; without imports of the one sort, replicators can't produce the other sort, and replication resources are better spent in things other than feeding the population anyway, as long as there's an alternate food source available.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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