Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

[Jax]

using TREK rules and cannon, far as the characters are concerned there prime universe has been changed.

Not this time, it hasn't.

Not only have the writers themselves said so, but Spock Prime's presence is proof enough.

How does Spock Prime being there prove that?

Why because hes there after history is changed ? Picard and co were there in FC after The Borg changed Earth's past and that wasn't different timeline. ST inidcates if you go back in time your protected from the timeline changes...You become seperate from the universe not the other way around.

The writers are threw a bone to some fans because they were ready to lynch the writers for changing the timeline despite always hating RESET buttons in time travel stories

 

[gastrof]

No, it hasn't.

I think you find time trave lin TREK pretty much states the future is different when the past is changed. STAR TREK has never once stated it uses the theory that altering time creates a second spereate universe its always done the prime universe is changed.

actually one of the theories of the mirror universe was it was a divergent universe at some point past in history.
and we saw the other parallel universes in tng parallel episode/

so no this isnt new.

Two universes being similar or even identical up to a certain point in time, and after that diverging, doesn't mean they were one universe up to that divergence.

STAR TREK has never presented changing the past as a way to create new universes. It's a way to CHANGE that one existing universs.

You can't change the rules midstream. If it was a simple fact of physics, temporal mechanics, or whatever in the TREK universe YESTERDAY, it's going to still be part of the laws of that universe TOMORROW.

If the movie DOES take place in the past of the known Trek universe (for the most part..it'd be the FUTURE of ST:ENT), then this movie has seen that timeline CHANGED.

The only possible out for this is the idea that the movie actually takes place in a parallel universe, and this is what I suspect.

If Nero and Spock are from the original universe and somehow crossed over when they went into the past, fine, but there's indications the Kelvin was NOT in the main universe when Nero arrived.

The Kelvin tech looked more advanced than that on Pike's Enterprise, which wasn't supposed to exist for a number of years yet.

The communicators seen used by Kelvin crew members were at least externally identical to those used on TOS.

Pike's crew used communicators that were VERY different. The TOS type shouldn't have shown up until sometime after the time period of THE CAGE.

WHY would the Kelvin crew have them so early?

The look of their tech is just plain WRONG, and I suspect this means the movie takes place in a similar but different universe, a universe which has just been made even more different by Nero's messing with its timeline.

Again, I don't know if Nero and Spock are from the future of this new unvierse, or from the original one, and at this point I don't really care.

The changing of the past of the original universe would have meant it was totally changed, not that an offshoot timeline had formed. The original would be getting overwritten. (See the time-travel episodes of TOS, TNG, AND DS9 for proof on how it works in the TREK universe.)

This means that the movie either is the new version of the original universe, or that it's been an alternate one all along.

I suspect the latter, for reasons already described.

The original timeline likely remains, not because this is "only an offshoot", but because it was and is a parallel universe, and now we get to watch Star Trek start all over again in a universe we've never seen before, with who knows how many differences.

 

[Jax]

The Kelvin tech looked more advanced than that on Pike's Enterprise, which wasn't supposed to exist for a number of years yet.

Pike's crew used communicators that were VERY different. The TOS type shouldn't have shown up until sometime after the time period of THE CAGE.

Using theories outside the movie are we now, in the movie it never stats any of this in anyway all it says that past events have been changed creating a new future. The Kelvin teach looks different but no way can you prove its more advanced than the ENT. As for the cgae thing well thats just down to J.J not really caring that much about canon and who blames him.

The look of their tech is just plain WRONG, and I suspect this means the movie takes place in a similar but different universe, a universe which has just been made even more different by Nero's messing with its timeline

I suspect you say...well only onscreen counts not your suspects and onscreen it indicates past has been changed and the Kelvin is the same tech. How the hell does Nero go back in time make the Kelvin tech different ? the timeline has not been affected yet.

SPOCK prime acts like this his is Universe because it is he never hints once that his prime universe still is out there. The tech looks better because its a $150 million movie in 2009.

The original timeline likely remains, not because this is "only an offshoot", but because it was and is a parallel universe, and now we get to watch Star Trek start all over again in a universe we've never seen before, with who knows how many differences.

We get to see a new universe because the universe has been changed, the future is different but its still the same universe. Look at VOY & ENT and to extent TNG with that episode about that time traveller historian...Federation in the future protects the timeline so if changing the past just creates a seperate univrse why the hell would they care since there universe would be around, they care because its there universe that gets changed...they say they travel time not universes.

The only real problem is if the Hobus star happens how did the 29th cenury we saw ever occur thats because its a TV franchise to be changed at will for $$$'s

This is the prime universe 2.0 not Beta Universe

 

[Sci]

actually one of the theories of the mirror universe was it was a divergent universe at some point past in history. and we saw the other parallel universes in tng parallel episode/ so no this isnt new.

THEORY is the keyword there...

Lets stop using maybe and ifs, It become clear every single plot using time travel from TOS to ENT and the movies inbetween that had dealt with time travel has shown on screen evidence that any alteration in the past affects our prime universe's future.

Now in TV terms we can easily say its a new Universe but using TREK rules and cannon, far as the characters are concerned there prime universe has been changed.

we have DVD's etc so I don't see the problem with fans getting to grips with the timelime changes.

1. The writers of the new movie themselves have made it clear that the prime timeline still exists, running parallel to the new one.

2. Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.

 

[Jax]

Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.

When? every episode I rmember had the crew worrying that the future in there universe has bee ncanged because of time travel...The writers may have threw a bone in there interviews but there writing onscreen differs and that is the only canon.

 

[Sci]

Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.

When? every episode I rmember had the crew worrying that the future in there universe has bee ncanged because of time travel...The writers may have threw a bone in there interviews but there writing onscreen differs and that is the only canon.

One of the ones that comes to mind is "All Good Things," where the presence of an anti-time thingermajiggy creates three separate alternate timelines that all diverge from one-another yet co-exist.

And the writing onscreen does not differ. It very explicitly refers to an "alternate reality." And creative intent DOES matter -- it's not just "throwing a bone" to the audience, it's a way of creating a new continuity while still preserving the original and letting future creators set stories in that continuity if they choose.

 

[gastrof]

Jax, I suspect English is not your first language, and would like to suggest you re-read my post.

You seem to be preaching to the choir.

Either that or you're just arguing with EVERYONE no matter what position they take.

EDIT:
Let me change that. Re-reading your post, I see you ARE making self-contradicting arguments, and NOW I'm suspecting you're just wasting people's time.

 

[gastrof]

...2. Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.

Trek has never said that a new timeline left the original intact.

It's always been said the one original timeline was changed.

Please give me an example of even one episode where they felt a new offshoot timeline resulted from the past being changed.

If that'd ever been said, the characters would have been stuck in the offshoot, with no way of EVER getting home, since changing the past a second time would only have created a THIRD timeline, not returned them to the original.

...One of the ones that comes to mind is "All Good Things," where the presence of an anti-time thingermajiggy creates three separate alternate timelines that all diverge from one-another yet co-exist...

Oh PLEASE!

That was nothing but Q messing with things, and had NOTHING to do with normal time travel.

Give another example. One that doesn't involve a being that can alter the fabric of the universe or put the starship Voyager inside someone's Christmas tree decoration.

 

[Jax]

Jax, I suspect English is not your first language, and would like to suggest you re-read my post.

You seem to be preaching to the choir.

Either that or you're just arguing with EVERYONE no matter what position they take.

I aplogise I skipped over parts of your post so sorry but nice to know you start your posts with an insult about my English.

 

[Sci]

...2. Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.

Trek has never said that a new timeline left the original intact.

It's always been said the one original timeline was changed.

Please give me an example of even one episode where they felt a new offshoot timeline resulted from the past being changed.

If that'd ever been said, the characters would have been stuck in the offshoot, with no way of EVER getting home, since changing the past a second time would only have created a THIRD timeline, not returned them to the original.

I just cited one, gastroff -- "All Good Things." And then of course there's "Parallels," which establishes that alternate timelines branch off from the regular one all the time, as does "Relativity" -- to the point where they need to "temporally re-integrate" two versions of Captain Braxton. Then there was "The City on the Edge of Forever," wherein Kirk and Spock managed to change their own timeline, but wherein the prior timeline seems to have somehow continued to exist in some way, given as how Spock was able to gain information about the prior flow of history to appear on his tricorder from out of the ether. Then there were the Sphere Builders, who possessed the technology needed to observe and examine alternate timelines in order to determine how to manipulate the main one, which means that alternate timelines exist and branch off from the main one.

In essence: Trek has had it both ways, and there's no reason we can't interpret this new movie to have it both ways.

 

[gimpy117]

Re: Now that Romulus is history...

the survivor count from Vulcan was in the range of 10,000 - substantially less than the survivor count from the new BSG.

well then they need to make a fleet for sure.... anybody got a spare battlestar?

 

[Sci]

Re: Now that Romulus is history...

...One of the ones that comes to mind is "All Good Things," where the presence of an anti-time thingermajiggy creates three separate alternate timelines that all diverge from one-another yet co-exist...

Oh PLEASE!

That was nothing but Q messing with things, and had NOTHING to do with normal time travel.

Give another example. One that doesn't involve a being that can alter the fabric of the universe or put the starship Voyager inside someone's Christmas tree decoration.

First off, calm the frick down. We're talking about a movie, not having discussing US foreign policy. Nothing we're talking about is worth getting pissed off over.

Secondly, Q was very clear in saying that the only thing he did was create the anti-time and then let Picard bounce around between timelines. At no point does Q himself create or maintain those alternate timelines' existences. They are a natural consequence of the existence of anti-time.

 

[xman]

using TREK rules and cannon, far as the characters are concerned there prime universe has been changed.

Not this time, it hasn't.

Not only have the writers themselves said so, but Spock Prime's presence is proof enough.

The writers were commenting on productions, not canon when they said it's "still there". Things are all different BECAUSE Uncle Spock (and Nero) came back. In the script Uhura calls it an "alternate reality". We can expect all bets to be off with what has heretofore been known as 'canon'. Take a deep breath. Everything will be alright. It's just storytelling.

X

 

[Sci]

The writers were commenting on productions, not canon when they said it's "still there".

1. Those writers are now the guys who decide what is and is not canonical.

2. If they say that a line onscreen meant that the prime timeline still exists, then that's what that line means. Period.

3. They have said that a canonical line about alternate timelines means that the original timeline still exists.

4. Ergo, canonically, the original timeline still exists.

 

[Jax]

...2. Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.

Trek has never said that a new timeline left the original intact.

It's always been said the one original timeline was changed.

Please give me an example of even one episode where they felt a new offshoot timeline resulted from the past being changed.

If that'd ever been said, the characters would have been stuck in the offshoot, with no way of EVER getting home, since changing the past a second time would only have created a THIRD timeline, not returned them to the original.

I just cited one, gastroff -- "All Good Things." And then of course there's "Parallels," which establishes that alternate timelines branch off from the regular one all the time, as does "Relativity" -- to the point where they need to "temporally re-integrate" two versions of Captain Braxton. Then there was "The City on the Edge of Forever," wherein Kirk and Spock managed to change their own timeline, but wherein the prior timeline seems to have somehow continued to exist in some way, given as how Spock was able to gain information about the prior flow of history to appear on his tricorder from out of the ether. Then there were the Sphere Builders, who possessed the technology needed to observe and examine alternate timelines in order to determine how to manipulate the main one, which means that alternate timelines exist and branch off from the main one.

In essence: Trek has had it both ways, and there's no reason we can't interpret this new movie to have it both ways.

My take on AU Universes are they co exsist along side our universes and but do not directly interfere with each other unless you can hop inbetween them as we have seen in Mirror episodes. Time Travel is the travel in your own universe if you saw in those mirror eps they could always go to them but would always arrive in the same year as there own universe so thats not time travel. So you can only do time travel in the universe your in so Nero and Spock who gave no indication they were in a AU universe but there own and that entire Universe had been changed from the point Nero attacked the Kelvin...

but thats my take and we shall have to agree to disagree.

 

[Sci]

My take on AU Universes are they co exsist along side our universes and but do not directly interfere with each other unless you can hop inbetween them as we have seen in Mirror episodes.

A tidbit to consider:

We have never seen anyone travel through time by directly going through a black hole in Trek before. As such, the potential consequences of time travel via such a method are completely unestablished. What if the consequence of time travel directly via a black hole -- not by coming close to one, as with TOS, but actually through it -- is to cause the era into which one emerges to then branch off into an alternate universe where it had previously been one?

This would be completely consistent with prior Trek installments' depictions of time travel even if we reject the idea of alternate timelines branching off from one-another normally, because this is an unprecedented time travel method.

So you can only do time travel in the universe your in

Canonically erroneous. "In A Mirror, Darkly" firmly established that the USS Defiant both travelled from the regular universe and travelled back through time from the regular universe's 2268 to the Mirror Universe's 2155.

 

[Omegalomaniac]

...2. Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.

Trek has never said that a new timeline left the original intact.

It's always been said the one original timeline was changed.

Please give me an example of even one episode where they felt a new offshoot timeline resulted from the past being changed.

If that'd ever been said, the characters would have been stuck in the offshoot, with no way of EVER getting home, since changing the past a second time would only have created a THIRD timeline, not returned them to the original.

I just cited one, gastroff -- "All Good Things." And then of course there's "Parallels," which establishes that alternate timelines branch off from the regular one all the time, as does "Relativity" -- to the point where they need to "temporally re-integrate" two versions of Captain Braxton. Then there was "The City on the Edge of Forever," wherein Kirk and Spock managed to change their own timeline, but wherein the prior timeline seems to have somehow continued to exist in some way, given as how Spock was able to gain information about the prior flow of history to appear on his tricorder from out of the ether. Then there were the Sphere Builders, who possessed the technology needed to observe and examine alternate timelines in order to determine how to manipulate the main one, which means that alternate timelines exist and branch off from the main one.

In essence: Trek has had it both ways, and there's no reason we can't interpret this new movie to have it both ways.

Works for me I for one intend to enjoy any and all TREK universes timelines etc and see no point in niggling over minuitae.Many excellent [and not so excellent] books have been written in the STAR TREK canon over the years and as far as I am concerned what we have before us is a slice of the multiverse to explore which contains a limitless potential. Some of us forget that in the final analysis this just entertainment.
Heresy and blasphemy to fanboys everywhere, I know but what of it?

 

[nx1701g]

Well in Star Trek Online here are the years 2387 and 2388.

 

[Silversmok3]

We should have a forum devoted to timeline discussions. And the OP says "back in the 24th century"? Wouldn't it be "forward to the 24th century"? Just kiddin...

Yes,technically...but since what took place in the 24th century caused what happened in the 23rd I wrote the original title that way...

 

[SilentP]

We should have a forum devoted to timeline discussions. And the OP says "back in the 24th century"? Wouldn't it be "forward to the 24th century"? Just kiddin...

Well from Spock Prime's perspective, it almost could count as 'back in the 24th Century' since his memories from the prime 24th Century are older that his memories in the alternate 23rd Century. So our poor Spock Prime's memory plays like this 'Prime 23rd -> Prime 24th -> Alternate 23rd.' That could lead to some mindscrews