Romulans and Klingons: TOS / TNG

[Nerys Myk]

Why were the Romulans called "Romulans". Was that a nickname the Federation gave them?

The canonical story of this can be found in ENT "Minefield". The aliens confronting out heroes send a pictureless message, and Hoshi Sato does her best to translate it. She says these adversaries appear to be from something called the "Rumalin Star Empire".

T'Pol stiffens dramatically, and in a flat voice declares "Romulan. It's pronounced Romulan."...

Make of that what you wish. Hoshi didn't read the message, she listened to it. How could she have gotten the pronunciation wrong? A likely interpretation is that these folks really call themselves the Rumalin Star Empire, but T'Pol is notoriously familiar with the Vulcan pronunciation of that name.

Much like if the heroes ran into a strange, swastika-decorated starship, and T'Pol at the comm station said the newcomers call themselves the Nasha Sternenreich. That may be correct, that may be what these exiles from Earth really call themselves, but Archer would immediately step in, jaw stiffened in heroic-dramatic pose, and say "Nazi. It's pronounced Nazi."

I thought they were technically called the Rihannsu?

Might be, too. Perhaps the people are Rihannsu, but their nationality is Romulan? Much like the Dutch live in the Netherlands, from the English point of view.

Timo Saloniemi

I've always assumed the transmission was slightly garbled or the UT malfunctioned.

 

[bintak]

Have to agree with Timo. The Romulans we saw weren't that honorable. Esp. in Balance of Terror, the Romulan commander was responsible for several unprovoked first strikes at Federation outposts -- pretty sneaky, honorless attacks, frankly. So the so-called "role reversal" in TNG wasn't that much of a reversal, given that we saw Klingons act with more honor and respect in TOS than the Romulans.

Oh sure, there were sneaky Klingons, too, like the commander of the Klingon ship attacking Enterprise in Elaan of Troyus. And they imply Koloth had some knowledge of their double-agent in Trouble With Tribbles.

So I'd say the premise of a total role reversal is more a myth than reality.

Red Ranger

Sneak attacks in Balance of Terror? Or attacks limited by his technology. He had no shields. He had to deliver his plasma torpedo by stealth. That means you adopt your tactics to your means at hand.

From his own commentary aboard his ship, I find the Romulan captain to be a lot more honorable than that creature Decius.

Same with the Enterprise Incident. The Romulan commander had three ships she could have used to waste Enterprise. Never mind the seduction subplot, though she was trying to both capture a Federation starship intact and gain a valuable Vulcan. Subcommander Tal also showed a lot more discipline and loyalty to his commander than any Klingon ever showed to his captain.

 

[Timo]

That means you adopt your tactics to your means at hand.

Sure. And often the only tactic available is to place a nail bomb in a railway station trash bin, or detonate a carful of explosives on the market square. That doesn't make the type of attack any more "honorable". By definition, honor often is a luxury only the strong can afford, but there you are. By their own standards, all people no doubt are honorable in all their actions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Romulan commander and the Centurion were shown to be "old school" Romulans, while Decius was a new breed. Remember the plot was lifted from a WWII movie. The Praetor is Hitler and Decius a loyal Nazi Party member.

They didn't have to deliver the plasma weapon using stealth. It worked fine stealth or no stealth. Though it sure helped. No idea if the Romulan ship had shields. I don't recall it being discussed.

The other Romulan commander did try to turn Spock. I'm not sure if thats honorable.

I don't recall any disloyal Klingons in TOS. Kor's men didn't say much. Koloth's subordinate Korax had a big mouth and heaped scorn of the Federation in general and Kirk in particular, but was loyal to Koloth and the Empire. Kang's men seemed very loyal. They follwed him through thick and thin. Even when outnumbered.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Who's Decius?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Who's Decius?

Weasley character from "Balance of Terror"

 

[bintak]

That means you adopt your tactics to your means at hand.

Sure. And often the only tactic available is to place a nail bomb in a railway station trash bin, or detonate a carful of explosives on the market square. That doesn't make the type of attack any more "honorable". By definition, honor often is a luxury only the strong can afford, but there you are. By their own standards, all people no doubt are honorable in all their actions.

Timo Saloniemi

A submariner is not a terrorist. He has to use the means he has to carry out his mission orders.

If his mission is to destroy a line of picket trawlers that strangles his people's ability to conduct trade and to explore, and he runs into a destroyer, does he become less honorable for the means he must use to carry out his orders?

The Romulan commander and the Centurion were shown to be "old school" Romulans, while Decius was a new breed. Remember the plot was lifted from a WWII movie. The Praetor is Hitler and Decius a loyal Nazi Party member.

The point I drove at and apparently missed was that "the only nimrod on that Romulan ship was Decius" that was the only zealot we see. the rest of the crew i rtook to be run of the mill professional Romulan navy. Do you remember that Kirk had his own bozo, Lieutenant Stiles, the racist bigot? The Federation Starfleet let him get through the cracks too. The inherent message was that both sides had internal cultural problems that made them less than "honorable",l but that each side still produced generally honorable men.

They didn't have to deliver the plasma weapon using stealth. It worked fine stealth or no stealth. Though it sure helped. No idea if the Romulan ship had shields. I don't recall it being discussed.

I can't say what kind of armor the Romulan ship had, but from that episode we learned that the Romulan ship was very vulnerable to Federation starship weapons at long range, whereas the supposedly superior Romulan weapon had to be delivered from very close in because the Federation ship could almost outrun it.

The other Romulan commander did try to turn Spock. I'm not sure if thats honorable.

I would suggest that just popping in and pounding the Enterprise to pieces and then hauling off prisoners and towing in the wreck would be "dishonorable". Smacks too much of the USS Pueblo which inspired the episode.

Notice, however, that the Romulan Commander stated that the Federation starship crew would be processed and returned to Federation authorities after the ship was interned for violating the Neutral Zone? Sure she wants to win political bonus points by taking a prize, but it was her space that was invaded and she was the defender. She was perfectly within her rights to blow them to bits. It says a lot that is positive for Romulan civilization, I think, that this solution that she tried was even politically possible, or viable.

I don't see Klingons allowing a Federation starship to waltz in like that without somebody Klingon starting shooting.

Speakingof Klingons.....I always had the sneaking suspicion that Klingons in Kirk's era as mentioned "In Errand of Mercy" were conceived to be closer to the Terran Empire of Mirror Mirror than Berman Trek Klingons, who are more like Space Vikings than I like. I prefer Kirk Klingons.

I don't recall any disloyal Klingons in TOS. Kor's men didn't say much. Koloth's subordinate Korax had a big mouth and heaped scorn of the Federation in general and Kirk in particular, but was loyal to Koloth and the Empire. Kang's men seemed very loyal. They followed him through thick and thin. Even when outnumbered.

You remember the Klingon from Friday's Child? How about the Klingon from A Private Little War? Treacherous sneaks and dishonorable to the max that not even Decius was. Then there was Arvid Darvan (sp?)

I think we can build a case for treacherous disloyal dishonorable Klingons. (Durass Sisters?)

 

[Timo]

A submariner is not a terrorist.

Perhaps not by his own definition. However, for all practical purposes, and in the eyes of the world, the classic WWI or WWII submariner was the purest form of terrorist: killing defenseless people for the sake of frightening more defenseless people and their possibly not so defenseless superiors from doing what the first batch was doing. The modern boomer sailor is even more of a terrorist, of course: holding entire cities hostage to nuclear holocaust.

Just because they wear uniforms doesn't mean one shouldn't piss on their faces, or at least call them dishonorable. Unless, of course, one happens to be on the same side, in which case morals flip-flop.

the rest of the crew i rtook to be run of the mill professional Romulan navy.

And most of the people on Nazi submarines, or indeed in the Kriegsmarine, weren't Nazis by party membership, or in spirit. Yet they unquestionably and unquestioningly did the bidding of the Nazi party. Or if they questioned it, they didn't question it hard enough.

A century prior, men serving on submarines (if such things had existed, of course) would have been hanged without trial (if they were on the losing side, of course). Modern sensibilities have grown to redefine a few things for necessity's sake - but the 23rd century sensibilities are once again shown as not really embracing sneak attacks.

I can't say what kind of armor the Romulan ship had, but from that episode we learned that the Romulan ship was very vulnerable to Federation starship weapons at long range, whereas the supposedly superior Romulan weapon had to be delivered from very close in because the Federation ship could almost outrun it.

I don't see direct evidence of close range, really: the sneak attack pattern resulted in the asteroid fortresses being unable to return fire or send out detailed calls for help, but the shot at the Enterprise doesn't necessarily tell of the vulnerability of the Romulan vessel. It just tells that they somewhat misjudged the acceleration a frightened Starfleet vessel was capable of.

Sure, the Romulan ship might have been a veritable Zeppelin, a deathtrap for its crew. Doesn't make the crew any more honorable, just like the Zeppelin crews weren't any less baby killers for their high-risk professions.

And that's all from the point of view of pre-21st century human morals that have grown to encompass the human tendency to kill each other in both formal and informal ways. The 23rd and 24th century humans have both explained a deeper disdain for warfare - even Kirk, who fancies himself a soldier first and foremost, in several episodes expresses the belief that armed conflict is or at least should be a thing of the past.

The Klingons have got it straight: winning is honorable, regardless of the fighting style. But if you don't win, then the style of fighting may come to bite you in the ass.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Don't you think for an alien species there's just a little too many connections to the Roman Empire and the Romulans?

I mean they're an alien species...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Don't you think for an alien species there's just a little too many connections to the Roman Empire and the Romulans?

I mean they're an alien species...

They're a fictional alien species created at a time when nods to Human cultures were not uncommon in SF's aliens.

 

[Timo]

To be sure, all those "connections" could be artifacts from the Universal Translator.

Say, "the Praetor" seems to be a real bigwig in the Romulan setup. The multiple Praetors never were in the Roman one. The Proconsuls and Vice-Proconsuls don't act like any Roman officials of that designation. The bigger problem here actually is why any Roman connection is made at all in these titles and names when the actual structure of the Romulan culture doesn't appear particularly Roman...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

The point I drove at and apparently missed was that "the only nimrod on that Romulan ship was Decius" that was the only zealot we see. the rest of the crew i rtook to be run of the mill professional Romulan navy. Do you remember that Kirk had his own bozo, Lieutenant Stiles, the racist bigot? The Federation Starfleet let him get through the cracks too. The inherent message was that both sides had internal cultural problems that made them less than "honorable",l but that each side still produced generally honorable men.
I can't say what kind of armor the Romulan ship had, but from that episode we learned that the Romulan ship was very vulnerable to Federation starship weapons at long range, whereas the supposedly superior Romulan weapon had to be delivered from very close in because the Federation ship could almost outrun it.

You need to listen to the dialog between the Commander and the Centurion. From what they say Romulan society has gone to hell in handbasket. Decius is not a lone zealot. He's a man with connections, dangerous connections if you cross him.

Stiles seems to be more of an anomaly, a guy with a family grudge. Not a guy you'd have to watch your back around.

I would suggest that just popping in and pounding the Enterprise to pieces and then hauling off prisoners and towing in the wreck would be "dishonorable". Smacks too much of the USS Pueblo which inspired the episode.

Notice, however, that the Romulan Commander stated that the Federation starship crew would be processed and returned to Federation authorities after the ship was interned for violating the Neutral Zone? Sure she wants to win political bonus points by taking a prize, but it was her space that was invaded and she was the defender. She was perfectly within her rights to blow them to bits. It says a lot that is positive for Romulan civilization, I think, that this solution that she tried was even politically possible, or viable.

I don't see Klingons allowing a Federation starship to waltz in like that without somebody Klingon starting shooting.

Speakingof Klingons.....I always had the sneaking suspicion that Klingons in Kirk's era as mentioned "In Errand of Mercy" were conceived to be closer to the Terran Empire of Mirror Mirror than Berman Trek Klingons, who are more like Space Vikings than I like. I prefer Kirk Klingons.

She was looking to score points no doubt. And on the honor scale, the UFP in that Episode comes out on the losing side. Still she tried to turn Spock promising him glory, honor and some booty. Not honorable, but better than what Kirk pulled.

The Romulan Commanders action might be seen as unusual. Since on one other occasion when the Enterprise violated Romulan space it was fired upon and I believe Uhura said:

The Romulans are notorious for not listening
to explanations

"The Errand of Mercy" Klingons were every totalitarian regime in history, but specifically the post WWII Soviets. "Mirror, Mirror" had more of Roman Empire in decline feel

You remember the Klingon from Friday's Child? How about the Klingon from A Private Little War? Treacherous sneaks and dishonorable to the max that not even Decius was. Then there was Arvid Darvan (sp?)

I think we can build a case for treacherous disloyal dishonorable Klingons. (Durass Sisters?)

Darvin was a spy. Sneaky is in the job discription. Espionage is not the place where you find honor and loyalty isn't a big factor either.

No one is saying that the Klingons cant be dishonorable or disloyal, just that the Romulans when introduced were in the act of a sneak attack and have a history of less than honorable actions.

 

[bintak]

A submariner is not a terrorist.

Perhaps not by his own definition. However, for all practical purposes, and in the eyes of the world, the classic WWI or WWII submariner was the purest form of terrorist: killing defenseless people for the sake of frightening more defenseless people and their possibly not so defenseless superiors from doing what the first batch was doing. The modern boomer sailor is even more of a terrorist, of course: holding entire cities hostage to nuclear holocaust.

Now that is an interesting viewpoint. I suggest that a blockader who tries to starve people and denies free trade would amount to the same thing? Those Federation armed outposts were there to deny access.

Just because they wear uniforms doesn't mean one shouldn't piss on their faces, or at least call them dishonorable. Unless, of course, one happens to be on the same side, in which case morals flip-flop.

Then again we could argue viewpoint. Suppose I was besieged and running out of food and my people were starving? Suppose I sent a raider out to test the enemy siege line to see if I could break through? We have no idea how the Romulan government saw its situation or in what terms. AFAICT from screen evidence a state of war was still technically active between the Feds and the RSE.

I actually doubt that that Romulan commander knew exactly why his government sent him out on the raid.

the rest of the crew I took to be run of the mill professional Romulan navy.

And most of the people on Nazi submarines, or indeed in the Kriegsmarine, weren't Nazis by party membership, or in spirit. Yet they unquestionably and unquestioningly did the bidding of the Nazi party. Or if they questioned it, they didn't question it hard enough.

I know of at least one functioning democracy where you could currently argue the same thing. Politics aside, when good men feel threatened they do foolish things. Romulans, or Feds, they both resorted to what I consider questionable moral posturing and actions. Spock said it, let me paraphrase since I can't remember exactly: [paraphrase] "It was a war fought over a century ago in primitive spaceships with weapons that allowed no quarter, and no prisoners. No one of the Federation or our allies has ever seen a Romulan. The Federation believes them to be cruel, vicious, and barbaric. What the Romulans think of us, no one knows."

I point out again that you have extreme examples of where the viewpoints adopted of those Spock described sets of ignorances leads: you have Decius, the nazi; and you have Stiles, the species bigot.

A century prior, men serving on submarines (if such things had existed, of course) would have been hanged without trial (if they were on the losing side, of course). Modern sensibilities have grown to redefine a few things for necessity's sake - but the 23rd century sensibilities are once again shown as not really embracing sneak attacks.

Federation sensibilities? Was Kirk above sneak attacks and ambushes in "Errand of Mercy"? Dressed as a spy sneaking around on Organia, trying to harm Klingons by stealth and subterfuge? There is a limit to how far you can push that moral argument. Submariners can justifiably claim a war mission, when they are at war.

I can't say what kind of armor the Romulan ship had, but from that episode we learned that the Romulan ship was very vulnerable to Federation starship weapons at long range, whereas the supposedly superior Romulan weapon had to be delivered from very close in because the Federation ship could almost outrun it.

I don't see direct evidence of close range, really: the sneak attack pattern resulted in the asteroid fortresses being unable to return fire or send out detailed calls for help, but the shot at the Enterprise doesn't necessarily tell of the vulnerability of the Romulan vessel. It just tells that they somewhat misjudged the acceleration a frightened Starfleet vessel was capable of.

Kirk; "Limited range." That quote I do remember. Outpost 4 reported to Kirk that their deflector shield was destroyed along with their phasers. The Romulan had to get in close, as his torpedo had a pursuit speed limit as well as a time limit before the weapon lost cohesion. We see that warhead disperse as its time runs out.

The blobs of light Enterprise hurls, that we see flash bulb around the invisible Romulan ship, are not direct hits on shields as indicated on a Klingon, ship as we see in "Elayne of Troyus". Those could be proximity bursts [depth charges]. The evidence is strongly suggestive to me, that the Romulans' sole defense is their invisibility screen. I think we might conclude that the Romulan ship has no shields.

Sure, the Romulan ship might have been a veritable Zeppelin, a deathtrap for its crew. Doesn't make the crew any more honorable, just like the Zeppelin crews weren't any less baby killers for their high-risk professions.

Depends. If you are trying to break a siege line, you might be more like Gideon among the Amalekites, than Captain Crazy Heimi over London. The Romulan was careful to only attack military targets, fortified strong points. I noticed that fine distinction. Why didn't he blow up an ore ship after sneaking past the picket line?

And that's all from the point of view of pre-21st century human morals that have grown to encompass the human tendency to kill each other in both formal and informal ways. The 23rd and 24th century humans have both explained a deeper disdain for warfare - even Kirk, who fancies himself a soldier first and foremost, in several episodes expresses the belief that armed conflict is or at least should be a thing of the past.

I'm puzzled. The Romulans may not be aggressors in the strategic sense. you are arguing that the Feds, who have a siege line in place and thus could be conducting a blockade, are absolutely moral in this circumstance. How does one reach this conclusion based on the internal evidence?

The Klingons have got it straight: winning is honorable, regardless of the fighting style. But if you don't win, then the style of fighting may come to bite you in the ass.

Can you argue the position, that winning is honorable any way you can, but then if you lose; that means you are evil, and deserve to be punished for trying to defend yourself in any way that you can?

I suggest instead that motive is the key decider in determining whether someone is evil or not? "Balance of Terror" is clearly ambiguous as to who started the Federation/Romulan war and what moral weight we might give to either side. We cheer on the Federation because they are US, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if I wrote the Romulan backstory, I could write of a very persecuted and bullied people, surrounded by hostiles, who become very militaristic in self-defense to survive their even more militaristic and "evil" neighbors. Modern Israel or ancient Assyria could be examples?

Just how were the Romulans driven off Vulcan? Were they persecuted? Do they have a legitimate historic grudge against the Vulcans, and now against the Vulcans Human allies? Motives I suggest, don't have to be evil to explain warlike behavior.

b.

 

[Nerys Myk]

To be sure, all those "connections" could be artifacts from the Universal Translator.

Say, "the Praetor" seems to be a real bigwig in the Romulan setup. The multiple Praetors never were in the Roman one. The Proconsuls and Vice-Proconsuls don't act like any Roman officials of that designation. The bigger problem here actually is why any Roman connection is made at all in these titles and names when the actual structure of the Romulan culture doesn't appear particularly Roman...

Timo Saloniemi

Theres in universe and out universe. You're real good at the in universe stuff no matter how hard it is to make work. Maybe Hoshi was Roman History buff and her programing reflects it.

 

[Timo]

I try not to dabble in "out-universe", as I have nothing comparable to Therin's personal knowledge of the actors or TGT's TMP/Puttkamer expertise... I don't even own The Making of Star Trek!

Besides, trying to keep up with the required adjustments to "in-universe" is a full time job anyway.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bintak]

The point I drove at and apparently missed was that "the only nimrod on that Romulan ship was Decius" that was the only zealot we see. the rest of the crew i rtook to be run of the mill professional Romulan navy. Do you remember that Kirk had his own bozo, Lieutenant Stiles, the racist bigot? The Federation Starfleet let him get through the cracks too. The inherent message was that both sides had internal cultural problems that made them less than "honorable",l but that each side still produced generally honorable men.
I can't say what kind of armor the Romulan ship had, but from that episode we learned that the Romulan ship was very vulnerable to Federation starship weapons at long range, whereas the supposedly superior Romulan weapon had to be delivered from very close in because the Federation ship could almost outrun it.

You need to listen to the dialog between the Commander and the Centurion. From what they say Romulan society has gone to hell in handbasket. Decius is not a lone zealot. He's a man with connections, dangerous connections if you cross him.

Halsey and MacArthur were politically connected and very dangerous incompetents, These are two real examples that could be used to explain a possible stray Decius in an otherwise legitimate and martial society that was acting out of desperation and would tolerate such deviants in their ranks.

Stiles seems to be more of an anomaly, a guy with a family grudge. Not a guy you'd have to watch your back around.

Nathan Bedford Forrest had a family grudge. So did Scipio Africanus.

I would suggest that just popping in and pounding the Enterprise to pieces and then hauling off prisoners and towing in the wreck would be "dishonorable". Smacks too much of the USS Pueblo which inspired the episode.

Notice, however, that the Romulan Commander stated that the Federation starship crew would be processed and returned to Federation authorities after the ship was interned for violating the Neutral Zone? Sure she wants to win political bonus points by taking a prize, but it was her space that was invaded and she was the defender. She was perfectly within her rights to blow them to bits. It says a lot that is positive for Romulan civilization, I think, that this solution that she tried was even politically possible, or viable.

I don't see Klingons allowing a Federation starship to waltz in like that without somebody Klingon starting shooting.

Speakingof Klingons.....I always had the sneaking suspicion that Klingons in Kirk's era as mentioned "In Errand of Mercy" were conceived to be closer to the Terran Empire of Mirror Mirror than Berman Trek Klingons, who are more like Space Vikings than I like. I prefer Kirk Klingons.

She was looking to score points no doubt. And on the honor scale, the UFP in that Episode comes out on the losing side. Still she tried to turn Spock promising him glory, honor and some booty. Not honorable, but better than what Kirk pulled.

Glory, honor, love, and boody. She offered herself. Not much more could yoiu ask for a person that looked out for her own people's interests. Honorable and patriotic to a fault she is.

The Romulan Commanders action might be seen as unusual. Since on one other occasion when the Enterprise violated Romulan space it was fired upon and I believe Uhura said:

The Romulans are notorious for not listening
to explanations

After "The Enterprise Incident" debacle I suggest that "it is logically what you would do as a Romulan, when the same Federation invader crosses into your territory three times." The Feds on this particular ship blew up one of your ships during "Balance of Terror", then they invaded and kidnapped one of your fleet commanders, and stole one of your technical secrets during "The Enterprise Incident". Here is that same Federation ship invading again!

"The Errand of Mercy" Klingons were every totalitarian regime in history, but specifically the post WWII Soviets. "Mirror, Mirror" had more of Roman Empire in decline feel.

Klingons = Soviets? Then the analogy holds. The Klingons were in decline.

You remember the Klingon from Friday's Child? How about the Klingon from A Private Little War? Treacherous sneaks and dishonorable to the max that not even Decius was. Then there was Arvid Darvan (sp?)

I think we can build a case for treacherous disloyal dishonorable Klingons. (Durass Sisters?)

Darvin was a spy. Sneaky is in the job description. Espionage is not the place where you find honor and loyalty isn't a big factor either.

"Errand of Mercy" I cite again. Kirk is treacherous, devious, and sneaky.

No one is saying that the Klingons cant be dishonorable or disloyal, just that the Romulans when introduced were in the act of a sneak attack and have a history of less than honorable actions.

The Romulans are first introduced, I submit, in a cloud of deliberate moral ambiguity, that to this day has not been satisfactorily back storied. Devious? Sneaky? Treacherous? Too simplistic a description, it is. I submit it could be Federation prejudice at work here, clouding our perceptions in the fiction that is Trek. That prejudice to me could be like saying every Palestinian is a terrorist, or that every American is the pillar of capitalist virtue in our real world.

I cannot say that from what I see. The ST/TOS evidence suggests that Romulans are as moral in their own way, as many others in fact are, when you examine their motives based on the evidence we have..

b.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

If I was writing a story (and I was thinking of a what if TMP as more TWOK/TSFS ish concept) I would have had the Romulan race's official name the Rihannsu -- As translated in one way or another it became Rumalin or Romulan and it just kind of stuck.

As would nicknames "Centurion" "Praetor"...

 

[Nerys Myk]

I aint quoting all that.

Decius was written in a certain way to establish why the Romulan Commander was tired of war, death and the Praetor's ambitions. the Commander is disillusioned, discontented and dissatisfied with the state of things in the Empire. Decuis is a symptom of these things.

Stiles was no Forrest or Scipio

The point is she tried to bribe Spock into becoming a traitor. Bribery is not usually thought of as honorable.

The second encounter with the Romulans is "The Deadly Years". A Second Season episode. "The Enterprise Incident" is Third Season. The Romulans or at least that Commander has abandoned the shoot on sight philosophy by "The Enterprise Incident". Or at least or that particular occasion.

The Enterprise IncidentThey want something,
or they would have destroyed us by now.
True, Captain.
That would be standard Romulan procedure.
It's my ship they want and very badly.
It would be a great prize.

The Klingons were not in decline during TOS. Nor where the Soviets post WWII. Both were viable threat to their respective rivals.

Yeah, the Feds can be sneaky too. No one is claiming otherwise. Though I'm sure Kirk thought of himself as a "Freedom Fighter" in EOE.

Lets see, the Romulans crossed a border and launched an unprovoked attack the UFP using a new powerful weapon with the intention of starting a war. Not much ambiguity there.

 

[Red Ranger]

Yeah, Nerys Myk, I ain't quoting all this stuff either! Well, it's entertaining to see Bintak contort himself to explain away the Romulans' treacherous attack in Balance of Terror. We have no evidence the Federation is "strangling" the Romulans in any way, shape, or form. Kor makes that argument to support Klingon aggression in Errand of Mercy. No doubt the Romulans may see it the same way.

Expansionist empires, like Nazi Germany and, yes, even the U.S., don't care who gets in the way of their expansion. In the case of Manifest Destiny, many millions of Native Americans were wiped out or forced onto the reservations. So the U.S.'s 300 million citizens enjoy freedom extracted from the blood, sweat, and tears not onloy of the original population, but also slave labor and the tyranny of Jim Crow.

Now, as the Nazis swept across Europe, lebensraum, or "breathing room," was their excuse for violating the sovereign territory of their neighbors, as well as their fanatical obsession with exterminating Jews, gypsies, and anyone else that didn't conform to their notion of Aryan superiority.

As pointed out, the Romulans violated the terms of the peace treaty. They snuck into Federation space and destroyed outposts that were simply monitoring the border. No evidence of aggression on the Federation's part. So while the Commander and the Centurion might have had a concept of honor and duty, it seems clear from their dialogue that their superiors were bent on conquest. And Decius was not the only member of the crew with such beliefs -- you can tell from the looks on the other Romulans' faces that they also doubted their Commander's intentions.

So your verbal acrobatics in defending the Romulans are to be commended, Bintak, but I'm not buying.

Red Ranger

 

[bintak]

Yeah, Nerys Myk, I ain't quoting all this stuff either! Well, it's entertaining to see Bintak contort himself to explain away the Romulans' treacherous attack in Balance of Terror. We have no evidence the Federation is "strangling" the Romulans in any way, shape, or form. Kor makes that argument to support Klingon aggression in Errand of Mercy. No doubt the Romulans may see it the same way.

Smoke=fire. Thanks for the evidence.

Expansionist empires, like Nazi Germany and, yes, even the U.S., don't care who gets in the way of their expansion. In the case of Manifest Destiny, many millions of Native Americans were wiped out or forced onto the reservations. So the U.S.'s 300 million citizens enjoy freedom extracted from the blood, sweat, and tears not only of the original population, but also slave labor and the tyranny of Jim Crow.

There are a lot of unstated and unsupportable anti-Romulan assumptions there, I submit. How did the Gorns react to Federation spatial incursion? How did Kirk react to what he found on Cestus IV, after the Gorns reacted? What was the whole point of "Arena"? We do not know that the Romulans are the aggressors-ever. We have concrete proof elsewhere that the Feds could be and usually are. Another citation is "Devil in the Dark". Feds were invading the Hortas' ecological range. 'Indians' [Hortas] were massacred in the pursuit of Federation Manifest Destiny.

Now, as the Nazis swept across Europe, lebensraum, or "breathing room," was their excuse for violating the sovereign territory of their neighbors, as well as their fanatical obsession with exterminating Jews, gypsies, and anyone else that didn't conform to their notion of Aryan superiority.

You've just described the Federation as the Klingons see them!

As pointed out, the Romulans violated the terms of the peace treaty. They snuck into Federation space and destroyed outposts that were simply monitoring the border. No evidence of aggression on the Federation's part. So while the Commander and the Centurion might have had a concept of honor and duty, it seems clear from their dialogue that their superiors were bent on conquest. And Decius was not the only member of the crew with such beliefs -- you can tell from the looks on the other Romulans' faces that they also doubted their Commander's intentions.

Again we might assume facts not in evidence, here. If the Romulans are bent in conquest why attack an outpost line of heavily shielded and strongly armed fortifications? Why not attack freighters or a planet? Its apparent from screen evidence that the Romulan warship was easily capable of this. The Romulans are going to wipe out an outpost line of heavily defended fortresses to mount an invasion and this bring the Federation to full alert, prepared for war? Why? If the Romulans are so devious, why commit such a foolish brazen attack? I submit instead that the Romulans rapped at the Federation siege line to see how strong it was and how worried THEY should be about possible Federation aggression.

Very worried as it turns out.

So your verbal acrobatics in defending the Romulans are to be commended, Bintak, but I'm not buying.

Red Ranger

Well, the evidence is strongly suggestive that it was the Romulans who were frightened and testing the Feds in "Balance of Terror" and not the other way around.

Note that the worry on the faces of the Romulan crew as Decius and the Romulan Commander argue about tactics could be reflective of THIS concern rather than a tacit agreement with Decius' political nitwittery?

"Should we not attack, if we are the stronger?" Brashness of youth, not a political statement of a philosophy, that was as I read it. Remember Decius is a Romulan Wesley Crusher, though the Romulan Commander is no Jean Luc, until he takes Wesley's er Decius' advice!.



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I aint quoting all that.

Decius was written in a certain way to establish why the Romulan Commander was tired of war, death and the Praetor's ambitions. the Commander is disillusioned, discontented and dissatisfied with the state of things in the Empire. Decuis is a symptom of these things.

So one brash young man speaks for all Romulans or their government? Could we adopt the same attitude regarding Mister Stiles?

Stiles was no Forrest or Scipio

He had an entire family in the space service a century prior to this episode he says. Reminds me of the McCains today. Generations US NAVY-all them go way back to the American Revolution. I suggest that Stiles is solidly connected politically in the Federation.......

The point is she tried to bribe Spock into becoming a traitor. Bribery is not usually thought of as honorable.

If your agent or official turns an enemy toward your "noble" cause-from your viewpoint, that agent or official has done a noble deed-especially if she has to swallow pride, or personal dignity, or sacrifice herself. Opprobrium is not heaped on your agent who is trying to do her job, its heaped on the "traitor" turncoat she turns and justifiably so..

The second encounter with the Romulans is "The Deadly Years". A Second Season episode. "The Enterprise Incident" is Third Season. The Romulans or at least that Commander has abandoned the shoot on sight philosophy by "The Enterprise Incident". Or at least or that particular occasion.

Oh well, I scrambled the order sequence . In that case, after the perfectly justifiable lesson of the "The Balance of Terror" where I, as a Romulan,. would shoot the Enterprise on sight, I submit that the Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" showed considerable civilized restraint thus revealing that the Romulan government had opened talks and negotiated some kind of protocol for this kind of Federation invasion. (third in a row!)

The Enterprise IncidentThey want something,
or they would have destroyed us by now.
True, Captain.
That would be standard Romulan procedure.
It's my ship they want and very badly.
It would be a great prize.

Of course it would. It might also be that the Romulans are curious as to why the Feds are invading them yet AGAIN? Don't forget also that Kirk is acting up for the benefit of his own crew; devious, sneaky, and treacherous Fed that he is!

The Klingons were not in decline during TOS. Nor where the Soviets post WWII. Both were viable threat to their respective rivals.[/quote]
Myth versus reality. WW II Stalinist Russia had 9% of its population killed and half of its industry destroyed. Only NOW is Russia recovering. Praxis blows up close enough to the Kirk era to pass for Chernobryl. The Klingons are Russians all right!

Yeah, the Feds can be sneaky too. No one is claiming otherwise. Though I'm sure Kirk thought of himself as a "Freedom Fighter" in EOE.

The Organians thought otherwise, did you notice?

Lets see, the Romulans crossed a border and launched an unprovoked attack on the UFP using a new powerful weapon with the intention of starting a war. Not much ambiguity there.

Like the French did in WW I to Germany?