Romulans and Klingons: TOS / TNG

[CuttingEdge100]

From what it seemed, Roddenberry wanted the Klingons to be an honorless people who considered honor to be such a stupid thing...

In Balance of Terror, the Romulans were actually much more disciplined and even honorable than the Klingons... (I'm not sure about Romulan discipline and honor in The Enterprise Incident though -- Anybody?)

By TNG: The Klingons became the honor obsessed ones, and the Romulans were the treacherous devious ones... almost a complete role reversal...

Why was there such a change?

 

[Tan Ru]

Yep. That's how I see them too.

The species roll seemed to have been reversed in the TNG era.

Dunno why. . . .

 

[Ronald Held]

Wasn't that deliberate?

 

[Timo]

I don't see much honor in Romulans, be they TOS or TNG. Their main characteristic in both shows is compulsive backstabbing during cowardly surprise strikes, with a bit of firing on missions of mercy added for spicing.

In contrast, the so-called Big Three TOS Klingons all showed honor, comparable to the admittedly somewhat more formalized-religious TNG style of honor. Kor honored Kirk as an opponent, kept his promises, and was gracious in defeat. Koloth was courteous to a fault, and withdrew immediately when humiliated. Kang, even under the aggression-boosting influence of a mind-bending alien entity, swore to the treaty signed with his enemies, and ultimately came to cooperate with them after following through with a truce and accompanying negotiations. That's way more than can ever be said about Romulans.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HarryM]

Kang in DotD seems to have steered the Klingons in that direction. Kor somewhat, though he seemed more of the standard devious type.

 

[foxmulder710]

I think the problem with this type of question is that it rests on two faulty assumptions: (1) cultures can't change (as one hundred years might do to a group of people, like the Romulans) and (2) the Romulans/Klingons we saw in TOS are necessarily a good sample size/representative of ALL of their species...

 

[darkshadow0001]

From what it seemed, Roddenberry wanted the Klingons to be an honorless people who considered honor to be such a stupid thing...

In Balance of Terror, the Romulans were actually much more disciplined and even honorable than the Klingons... (I'm not sure about Romulan discipline and honor in The Enterprise Incident though -- Anybody?)

By TNG: The Klingons became the honor obsessed ones, and the Romulans were the treacherous devious ones... almost a complete role reversal...

Why was there such a change?

I read somewhere that Roddenberry wanted TNG to be different from TOS. Could that be one of the reasons?

 

[CuttingEdge100]

In "The Enterprise Incident"
Were the Romulans more like that in "Balance of Terror" or like those in TNG?

 

[Red Ranger]

Have to agree with Timo. The Romulans we saw weren't that honorable. Esp. in Balance of Terror, the Romulan commander was responsible for several unprovoked first strikes at Federation outposts -- pretty sneaky, honorless attacks, frankly. So the so-called "role reversal" in TNG wasn't that much of a reversal, given that we saw Klingons act with more honor and respect in TOS than the Romulans.

Oh sure, there were sneaky Klingons, too, like the commander of the Klingon ship attacking Enterprise in Elaan of Troyus. And they imply Koloth had some knowledge of their double-agent in Trouble With Tribbles.

So I'd say the premise of a total role reversal is more a myth than reality.

Red Ranger

 

[Timo]

Admittedly, though, the "Klingons as samurai" idea is something only introduced in TNG. But much of it comes from listening to Worf, who is only a Klingon by correspondence course. Essentially, we're seeing the extreme propagandist view of Klingon honor; the reality we see when meeting actual homegrown Klingons, including corrupt politicians, sneaky agents and arrogant warriors, is far more banal.

So I'm not really ready to believe in a role reversal, or even in a major reworking of the Klingon concept. Except of course in terms of makeup and costuming. Or, really, in terms of hairdos. The sudden appearance of empire-wide hairstyles in both the Klingon and Romulan cultures is the thing in TNG that really annoys me...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vonstadt]

Why not? lol the Feds had the whole pointy sideburn thing happening in TOS

 

[Timo]

Starfleet did. Granted that even civilian women had the beehives, but I'd have been perfectly satisfied if the TNG Klingons had a "military cut" and then a number of civilian cuts of greater variety.

The Romulans might have had bowl cuts dictated on them as a national standard, to emphasize the totalitarianism angle. But ever since Cardassians took over the combined Space Nazi / Space Commie role, I'd also have liked to see more "rebellious" Romulan cuts to support the notion that these people are driven by their sometimes savage emotions...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tan Ru]

Romulans: Savage emotions yes, but also tame haircuts. . .

 

[Ronald Held]

Timo, great comment about Worf.

 

[Red Ranger]

I always thought of the TNG-era Klingons as a cross between Samurai, Viking berserkers, and biker dudes, myself! -- RR

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Why were the Romulans called "Romulans". Was that a nickname the Federation gave them?

I thought they were technically called the Rihannsu?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why were the Romulans called "Romulans". Was that a nickname the Federation gave them?

I thought they were technically called the Rihannsu?

They've only been called "Romulans" on TV and in the movies. (And thats what counts) "Rihannsu" was invented for the books. Romulan just wasn't alien enough I guess.

 

[TheThrasson]

I always thought of the TNG-era Klingons as a cross between Samurai, Viking berserkers, and biker dudes, myself! -- RR

I have always thought the Klingons were the bikers of the galaxy!

 

[Red Ranger]

I always thought of the TNG-era Klingons as a cross between Samurai, Viking berserkers, and biker dudes, myself! -- RR

I have always thought the Klingons were the bikers of the galaxy!

Yep. They drink heavily, break heads, and get into knife fights! And they're armed to the teeth! Look out, Hell's Angels! -- RR

 

[Timo]

Why were the Romulans called "Romulans". Was that a nickname the Federation gave them?

The canonical story of this can be found in ENT "Minefield". The aliens confronting out heroes send a pictureless message, and Hoshi Sato does her best to translate it. She says these adversaries appear to be from something called the "Rumalin Star Empire".

T'Pol stiffens dramatically, and in a flat voice declares "Romulan. It's pronounced Romulan."...

Make of that what you wish. Hoshi didn't read the message, she listened to it. How could she have gotten the pronunciation wrong? A likely interpretation is that these folks really call themselves the Rumalin Star Empire, but T'Pol is notoriously familiar with the Vulcan pronunciation of that name.

Much like if the heroes ran into a strange, swastika-decorated starship, and T'Pol at the comm station said the newcomers call themselves the Nasha Sternenreich. That may be correct, that may be what these exiles from Earth really call themselves, but Archer would immediately step in, jaw stiffened in heroic-dramatic pose, and say "Nazi. It's pronounced Nazi."

I thought they were technically called the Rihannsu?

Might be, too. Perhaps the people are Rihannsu, but their nationality is Romulan? Much like the Dutch live in the Netherlands, from the English point of view.

Timo Saloniemi