Romulan Warbirds

[Arpy]

That was kind of the POINT, wasn't it? That it wasn't something that could easily be traced back to them?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, that's why it looked like that. Not because of other reasons.

 

[t_smitts]

That was kind of the POINT, wasn't it? That it wasn't something that could easily be traced back to them?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, that's why it looked like that. Not because of other reasons.

Huh? I'm confused. That page is about the 24th century warbird. What does that have to do with the drone ship?

 

[Arpy]

That was kind of the POINT, wasn't it? That it wasn't something that could easily be traced back to them?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, that's why it looked like that. Not because of other reasons.

Huh? I'm confused. That page is about the 24th century warbird. What does that have to do with the drone ship?

You suggested that the real world producers of the show chose a model from VOY (in-universe, a starship from centuries into the future from the other side of the galaxy) because the Romulans of the 22nd century didn't want anyone to know it was their ship.

It was a cost-saving measure. Same as (following the link quoted) with the re-use of part of the CG model of the warbird as both Mazarite and Illyrian ships. Same as with many Trek models.

My comment had to do with the incongruousness of the drone ship design with other Romulan ships and the improbability of the design in the 22nd century Alpha Quadrant. Even if the Romulans of the 22nd century wanted to design a ship not immediately recognizable as Romulan, they would never have been able to conjure that design, and they would not have chosen to paint it Romulan green.

The VOY ship was chosen because it could "pass" for Romulan to casual viewers. Not many fans would recognize it from VOY (given its non-starring role), the CG artists painted it green to suggest Romulan, and even the curvy hull is vaguely reminiscent of the TNG warbird and ENT bird-of-prey.

 

[t_smitts]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, that's why it looked like that. Not because of other reasons.

Huh? I'm confused. That page is about the 24th century warbird. What does that have to do with the drone ship?

You suggested that the real world producers of the show chose a model from VOY (in-universe, a starship from centuries into the future from the other side of the galaxy) because the Romulans of the 22nd century didn't want anyone to know it was their ship.

It was a cost-saving measure. Same as (following the link quoted) with the re-use of part of the CG model of the warbird as both Mazarite and Illyrian ships. Same as with many Trek models.

My comment had to do with the incongruousness of the drone ship design with other Romulan ships and the improbability of the design in the 22nd century Alpha Quadrant. Even if the Romulans of the 22nd century wanted to design a ship not immediately recognizable as Romulan, they would never have been able to conjure that design, and they would not have chosen to paint it Romulan green.

The VOY ship was chosen because it could "pass" for Romulan to casual viewers. Not many fans would recognize it from VOY (given its non-starring role), the CG artists painted it green to suggest Romulan, and even the curvy hull is vaguely reminiscent of the TNG warbird and ENT bird-of-prey.

Actually, I was giving an IN-UNIVERSE explanation. And why couldn't they conjure such a design?

 

[TheSubCommander]

It seems odd that the Klingons have a class of ships that are called Bird of Prey ships. I thought that the painting (etching or whatever) of an image of a bird on a star ship was a Romulan thing.

It gets worse, both Enterprise and Trek XI have the Klingons operating ships known as Warbirds.

The mention in "Broken Bow" was supposedly a goof, but it actually didn't bother me. If both Klingons and Romulans have ships designated as "Bird of Prey", why not "Warbird" also?

"Klingon Warbird" actually sounds pretty catchy, I think.

Yeah, I kind of chalk Romulans and Klingons having Birds of Prey and Warbirds being a Federation designation for their respective classes of ships. The Klingon "warbird" is basically just the Abramsverse equivalent of what we knew up to that point as the D7 Klingon Battle Cruiser. For all we know, the prime universe also used it, as well, and Broken Bow basically confirms it.

 

[Arpy]

Huh? I'm confused. That page is about the 24th century warbird. What does that have to do with the drone ship?

You suggested that the real world producers of the show chose a model from VOY (in-universe, a starship from centuries into the future from the other side of the galaxy) because the Romulans of the 22nd century didn't want anyone to know it was their ship.

It was a cost-saving measure. Same as (following the link quoted) with the re-use of part of the CG model of the warbird as both Mazarite and Illyrian ships. Same as with many Trek models.

My comment had to do with the incongruousness of the drone ship design with other Romulan ships and the improbability of the design in the 22nd century Alpha Quadrant. Even if the Romulans of the 22nd century wanted to design a ship not immediately recognizable as Romulan, they would never have been able to conjure that design, and they would not have chosen to paint it Romulan green.

The VOY ship was chosen because it could "pass" for Romulan to casual viewers. Not many fans would recognize it from VOY (given its non-starring role), the CG artists painted it green to suggest Romulan, and even the curvy hull is vaguely reminiscent of the TNG warbird and ENT bird-of-prey.

Actually, I was giving an IN-UNIVERSE explanation. And why couldn't they conjure such a design?

?? ...It's an alien design from two centuries in the future and 70,000 lightyears away.

Pure in-universe rationalizations are silly. Explain in-universe why every alien very obviously is wearing latex prosthetics with caked on make-up. ...We're constantly allowing for real world factors - that's normal. What shouldn't be is to accept everything as perfection because we're enjoying the overall experience.

 

[Timo]

?? ...It's an alien design from two centuries in the future and 70,000 lightyears away.

Actually, "in-universe" it's vice versa. Romulans have the dibs on the design - the people at Delta two centuries later are the copycats.

Pure in-universe rationalizations are silly.

But there is no demand for any other sort. Whyever should we rationalize in a manner that's inconsistent with the fiction on screen?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[-Brett-]

Might be worth noting that "Klingon warbird" is a term only used by politicians and cadets.

 

[USS KG5]

The mention in "Broken Bow" was supposedly a goof, but it actually didn't bother me. If both Klingons and Romulans have ships designated as "Bird of Prey", why not "Warbird" also?

"Klingon Warbird" actually sounds pretty catchy, I think.

Additionally, all we are hearing is a translation into English of the term, not the original designation.

The magical universal translator obviously is capable of translating vastly different perspectives and concepts into English. It is possible that the Klingons mean something quite different to the Romulans, it just happens that "warbird" was the closest translation into English for both.

 

[Timo]

Might be worth noting that "Klingon warbird" is a term only used by politicians and cadets.

Well, Vulcan experts of space conflict, and people going through a Vulcan-programmed simulation for the third time.

These lines make it pretty clear that the Scimitar (and presumably any support craft like the Scorpion fighters) were built exclusively by Shinzon, and not by the Romulan government.

Yup, that's the debatable point (while the Scorpions are probably more clear-cut).

But "being built in a secret base" is probably standard Romulan fare, and Shinzon is only talking about rallying an army after participating in the construction process. It's rather unlikely that he could have commandeered a secret base with the resources to build a starship unless he mounted a vast rebellion on Remus first!

Because if the Romulans did build the Scimitar, they would not have let Shinzon come within a million miles of it, knowing it was a giant thalaron generator.

At that point, Shinzon might not have been the Roy of Remus yet, but he was a well-performing and well-behaving military slave of the Romulan war machine. Why wouldn't he be taking part in the building of great warships?

And in the end, Shinzon was assisted by high-ranking Romulans in his quest to conquer all of Romulus. The feat called for impressive stunts such as assassinating all of the Senate at once. Shinzon was intended to do great things for his Romulan backers; giving him great weapons (although perhaps with backdoor safety measures) would be fitting.

One wonders about the rest of the hardware, too. The movie introduced all-new rifles and pistols - but then again, just about any episode featuring Romulans gave them new sidearms. Are those guns specifically meant for Reman cannon fodder, or would Romulan infantry use the same models now?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

It seems odd that the Klingons have a class of ships that are called Bird of Prey ships. I thought that the painting (etching or whatever) of an image of a bird on a star ship was a Romulan thing.

It gets worse, both Enterprise and Trek XI have the Klingons operating ships known as Warbirds.

The mention in "Broken Bow" was supposedly a goof, but it actually didn't bother me. If both Klingons and Romulans have ships designated as "Bird of Prey", why not "Warbird" also?

"Klingon Warbird" actually sounds pretty catchy, I think.

I just remember back when Broken Bow aired fandom was in an uproar over the term "Klingon Warbird" with many using it as proof that Berman and Braga were unfit to control the Trek franchise and were careless an irresponsible. As well, several online reviews docked the episode upwards of five points over it. Curiously, no one seemed to care about it being used in Trek XI.

Well, it wasn't, really. They just reused an alien ship of the week from Voyager for that ship.

Yes, I remember the design being a re-use, but it was unlike anything [specifically] Romulan.

That was kind of the POINT, wasn't it? That it wasn't something that could easily be traced back to them?

Actually, no. In the episode, the Romulans state the ship is just a standard warbird modified for the mission and that if it were caught by the Vulcans they would trance it back to the Romulans.

 

[Dukhat]

But "being built in a secret base" is probably standard Romulan fare, and Shinzon is only talking about rallying an army after participating in the construction process. It's rather unlikely that he could have commandeered a secret base with the resources to build a starship unless he mounted a vast rebellion on Remus first!

Of course it's unlikely. EVERYTHING that happened in that movie was unlikely. But playing devil's advocate and taking Shinzon at his word, then he had a secret base of his own which was where he built the Scimitar right under the Romulan's noses. He was a military commander in the field during the Dominion War, leading Reman troops into battle (with presumably no Romulans under his command.) He had ample opportunity to find a base and a construction site on his own without the Romulans' knowledge. Heck, he could have struck up a deal with the Dominion to give him the base and the help to build the ship knowing he was going to use it against Romulus.

Now could Shinzon have been lying to Picard? Maybe. He was lying about other things. But he has no reason to lie about that. Whether he told Picard he stole the ship or built it himself would make no difference to Picard.

As far as the Scorpions are concerned, if Shinzon could build a huge warship at his base, then he could easily have added small support craft. Data and Picard might have known how to fly them because their control interfaces may have been based on Romulan or Dominion designs. Of course, in VOY Tom Paris knew immediately how to fly a Kazon ship even though it was a completely alien design, so it's not like there's any kind of valid real-world logic as to how they knew how to fly them.

 

[Arpy]

?? ...It's an alien design from two centuries in the future and 70,000 lightyears away.

Actually, "in-universe" it's vice versa. Romulans have the dibs on the design - the people at Delta two centuries later are the copycats.

Either way it's really really really bad.

Given that the design doesn't match other Romulan designs, it's easier to leave it to the VOY aliens.

Given that the design wasn't created by the initial artist to say anything Romulan, and that it really doesn't, again, you don't want to force the issue.

Given than the ENT episode came after VOY, again, you don't want to force the issue.

...Or you're accepting lower quality entertainment just to make it fit, but that's not entertaining. And gets cancelled.

Pure in-universe rationalizations are silly.

But there is no demand for any other sort. Whyever should we rationalize in a manner that's inconsistent with the fiction on screen?

There is demand when in-universe rationalizations strain one's suspension-of-disbelief beyond the point when the strain poisons one's enjoyment.

Ideally, we shouldn't need to rationalize anything at all.

Yes, I remember the design being a re-use, but it was unlike anything [specifically] Romulan.

That was kind of the POINT, wasn't it? That it wasn't something that could easily be traced back to them?

Actually, no. In the episode, the Romulans state the ship is just a standard warbird modified for the mission and that if it were caught by the Vulcans they would trance it back to the Romulans.

Well then.

 

[Dukhat]

That was kind of the POINT, wasn't it? That it wasn't something that could easily be traced back to them?

Actually, no. In the episode, the Romulans state the ship is just a standard warbird modified for the mission and that if it were caught by the Vulcans they would trance it back to the Romulans.

Well then.

Well, it's not a fake. As Wormhole pointed out, the dialogue states that the drone ship was a modified Romulan warbird. Yeah, this makes no sense in context, because the ship is super tiny and looks nothing like the previous Romulan ship we saw in "Minefield," but the dialogue doesn't lie.

However, I agree that just lazily reusing a CGI alien ship from VOY instead of creating a new design for such a prominent vessel was just a cheap move.

 

[Ithekro]

That is an "Ask Drexler" question.

 

[Timo]

Regarding ST:NEM, agreed that everything that happened there was somewhat unlikely. Otherwise, Romulus would be falling under Reman rule every second conjunction of the planets, and the Remans would then become the new Romulans until their slaves rebelled - yet the Feds feel that a Reman at the helm is completely unheard of.

So, let's consider the possibilities.

He had ample opportunity to find a base and a construction site on his own without the Romulans' knowledge.

I'd rank that as one of the less likely explanations.

1) Even if Remus is far away from Romulus most of the time due to orbital mechanics (meaning there are set dates for Spartacus rebellions, and some chance of the Remans doing their own thing for the rest of the time), Romulans should have the means and the will to keep secret dockyards from happening. It's their home system, their resource flows, and their own dockyards and weapons factories are there on Remus as well, supposedly under careful surveillance.

2) Shinzon working outside Remus calls for an alternate source for logistics, and for an ability to slip the Romulan leash. But said leash would be at its tightest when Shinzon is allowed to wander out in the field! Shinzon just might be able to make a few shady deals, but acting on those deals in a project that takes time and other resources...

Heck, he could have struck up a deal with the Dominion to give him the base and the help to build the ship knowing he was going to use it against Romulus.

What would be the point, from the Dominion POV? Shinzon might use the ship as promised, or then misuse her. He wouldn't be able to bring in resources of his own to help with the building.

The Dominion doing all the building and using by itself would ensure the outcome.

Whether he told Picard he stole the ship or built it himself would make no difference to Picard.

Lying about whether he's a free agent or a tool for Romulan overlords should make a massive difference, though. The former means he might be a trustworthy future ally to the UFP. The latter definitely means he won't: a Romulan faction working against another is not a prospective ally, even if it is a daily occurrence on Romulus.

So the emphasis on Shinzon being the master of his own destiny might be a deliberate lie, and the "I built this!" bit a necessary embellishment.

As far as the Scorpions are concerned, if Shinzon could build a huge warship at his base, then he could easily have added small support craft.

...One wonders about the "as a tiger needs pajamas" aspect of this. The ship is intended to erase populations from existence. In addition to a cloak, she also sports space combat extravaganza to ensure she gets to those populations. What are the fightercraft for? If the weapon works, they have no enemies to fight. If the weapon fails, they have no hope. And they can't defend the mothership, or they would.

OTOH, if the idea is to give Shinzon a tool with which to subjugate all of Romulus in a day, then a massive blackmail weapon plus a swarm of "revenue cutters" with which to collect the ransom and deliver the ultimata might be the perfect combination.

As Wormhole pointed out, the dialogue states that the drone ship was a modified Romulan warbird.

Specifically, the propulsion system comes from an existing Romulan warbird design, making it traceable. Technically, the hull might be 100% new.

After all, one Romulan does believe the drone is untraceable, even though another one disagrees. So things probably do look good on the surface!

Timo Saloniemi