Romulan Plasma Torps, Failure?

[Robert Simmons]

The warp capability through the alliance only applies to SFB, though; I'll admit that on a personal level, I'm amazed that a single line of dialogue became such a debate, especially when other evidence in BOT seems to answer the question of whether the Romulans have it.

How so? You mean this.....

"Balance of Terror"...bad guys have sub-light ship with all or nothing bangstick....

"The Enterprise Incident"...bad guys now have even parity with the Feds...including just as fast as Feds....Klingon ships with God knows what kind of weapons we didn't see in that episode. MAJOR UPGRADE if you ask me....

So....latter episode suggests that Romulans adopting Klingon hulls introduced warp to their fleet when they clearly did not have it before. So Klingon influence is evident in upgrading the Romulans fleet in TOS...NOT SFB. In SFB the warp capability I do agree with you that warp power was introduced BEFORE the adoption of klingon hulls to give the Romulans a more level footing to where they could even fight anyone. What good is the Romulans having the ultimate wonder weapon but not be fast enough to catch their prey who is too fast to not want to hang around to get hit with it? Any enemy of the Romulans would simply leave the Romulans in the dust with their wonder weapon out of reach of anyone to hit with it. Kindof makes the Romulan plasma pretty worthless then if you ask me...even before throwing in the non-tracking ability of the plasma in "BOT". So there is a need to upgrade to faster ships. Case in point.....I point to the warbird / war eagle as a compensation to give redress to this. And this is why Stephen Cole did it. It was clearly seen that in TOS some things didn't add up to make a balanced playable game. So he made adjustments such as this to give more equitable balance in the game. It WAN"T PURE TO TOS TREK.....but it did fix many things to make playing SFB to be as close as possible to TOS in a playable balanced form. So I basically...well WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE with you if this is what you mean in how it differs from TOS.

Tigger...I love your Avatar. I'm an old anime fan. Looks good.

 

[Unicron]

No, the Romulans are not said to be "impulse only" in terms of speed in BOT; what's said is that their power generation is simple impulse. That's not the same thing, but it's the common fan misinterpretation of Scotty's line. There are plenty of other factors (like the Romulans leaving Vulcan, much less even having an interstellar empire) that suggest that not having warp or some FTL system is extremely unlikely. Besides, as has already been said, the experimental plasma weapon in BOT was itself warp capable, and the Enterprise was only able to outrun it with emergency power. That proves the Romulans had warp technology.

As far as "The Enterprise Incident" goes, I haven't seen it in a long time so I would have to rewatch it again before commenting on that. It's possible that since the only known Romulan ship was the experimental BOP at the time, it was assumed that using Klingon D7s would give parity. But I need to see the ep again.

 

[Robert Simmons]

Has anyone seen the Remastered version of "The Deadly Years" yet?
Also, I think the Cardassians found Plasma Torpedoes quite useful during the Dominion War.

Actually, I find the Plasma Torpedo quite useful playing the Federation in "Starfleet Command 2" I usually get the BCF or the DNF at my first opportunity when I play the campaign. I like the fact that Plasma Torpedoes in that game aren't as vulnerable to phaser fire or drone defenses as Drone/Missiles.

Has anyone given thought to HOW a ramped up warp field would shred and detonate a Romulan plamsa like a julien firy slicer? Not something covered in Star Fleet Battles.

 

[JuanBolio]

This doesn't explain why the Enterprise didn't just dodge the shot. There are only two possible ways to interpret that part of the episode:

1) the plasma bolt can turn and follow if the Enterprise tries to move out of its way, or
2) Kirk is a complete moron.

Or:

3) The writers were not hard sci-fi authors and didn't give too much thought to the technical specifications of the weapons and technology the wrote about.

Hell, you might as well ask "Why doesn't a cloaked ship stand out on heat sensors like a neon sign, or otherwise bake its crew alive from all the non-radiated heat?"

No, the Romulans are not said to be "impulse only" in terms of speed in BOT; what's said is that their power generation is simple impulse. That's not the same thing, but it's the common fan misinterpretation of Scotty's line. There are plenty of other factors (like the Romulans leaving Vulcan, much less even having an interstellar empire) that suggest that not having warp or some FTL system is extremely unlikely. Besides, as has already been said, the experimental plasma weapon in BOT was itself warp capable, and the Enterprise was only able to outrun it with emergency power. That proves the Romulans had warp technology.

I like Masao's explanation that the Romulans were still using nuclear fusion to power their ships. That, or the hypothesis that they are only limited to impulse when using the cloak, as it drains so much power. If they can't be cloaked and fire, it stands to reason that warp drive is off the table as well.

 

[Robert Simmons]

No, the Romulans are not said to be "impulse only" in terms of speed in BOT; what's said is that their power generation is simple impulse. That's not the same thing, but it's the common fan misinterpretation of Scotty's line. There are plenty of other factors (like the Romulans leaving Vulcan, much less even having an interstellar empire) that suggest that not having warp or some FTL system is extremely unlikely.

As far as "The Enterprise Incident" goes, I haven't seen it in a long time so I would have to rewatch it again before commenting on that. It's possible that since the only known Romulan ship was the experimental BOP at the time, it was assumed that using Klingon D7s would give parity. But I need to see the ep again.

In the tactical briefing in "BOT" Scotty is quoted as saying their power "is simple impulse." The following quote is" In chasing them...or retreating...sir." I agree a power generation source IS NOT NECESSIARILY IMPLIANT of being the same drive. But if attention in the "BOT" briefing is called into account if that power is good for "chasing or retreating" asking if being limited to impulse power with their weapon is enough of a limitation to engage them. With Spock and Kirk pointing out that a trail through the comet's tail would make the Romulan ship visible to target, the question is bypassed as to engaging the Romulans blind whilethey are cloaked. And this brings up a point about when Kirk full reversed to esape the plasma....I know the Romulans fired it as an a means to keep the Enterprise busy while the Romulan ship tried to escape. So why not just chase down the Enterprise and shove another plasma down their throught just to prevent the Enterprise from escaping it. tactically it would have been the right thing to do tactically. So then this question....they have impulse as a genration source.....so a ship's main generation source IS ALSO it's Main drive. So if it is commented in the briefing in BOT that their power is "simple impulse" relegating them to inferior status power and movenment wise...then why was it mentioned dismissively and confidently by Scotty as something not to be concerned about? I mean if you HAVE Warp Drive as a power generation source...doesn't it stand to reason that you should have warp drive as a propulsion source? As well if evaluating an enemy's power limited to "simple impulse" would mena that hey did not have anything better than that to not only generate power...BUT TO MOVE WITH?

Curious question....

 

[Robert Simmons]

Or:

3) The writers were not hard sci-fi authors and didn't give too much thought to the technical specifications of the weapons and technology the wrote about.

Hell, you might as well ask "Why doesn't a cloaked ship stand out on heat sensors like a neon sign, or otherwise bake its crew alive from all the non-radiated heat?"

I think this is a valid observation as well. This stuff was still raw and not all nailed down as far as consistancy that early in TOS productionwise. But at taking Tos at face value MArionLH I think has a point. If we look at this question from a writer's perspective...then JuanBolio is right. Personally taking both into account...I just take the series overall at face value and then reconcile the discrepancies in the minority against everything esle in the majority. So overall I just look at TOS collectively at face value, but look at reconciling the "TOS incosistancy oosies" with a writer's point of view as to where they were in developing the series then. On this note JuanBolio's point is OVERWHELMINGLY VALID

 

[Unicron]

And this brings up a point about when Kirk full reversed to esape the plasma....I know the Romulans fired it as an a means to keep the Enterprise busy while the Romulan ship tried to escape. So why not just chase down the Enterprise and shove another plasma down their throught just to prevent the Enterprise from escaping it. tactically it would have been the right thing to do tactically.

I'd say maybe. Yes, it would make sense to neutralize the Enterprise as a threat, since the opportunity existed; but it would also make sense to try to escape back to Romulan space, which seems to have been the ship's original mission. I recall the Romulan commander mentioning the fuel issue more than once, so perhaps that was a factor. Perhaps in that case killing the E would have been bad, because the BOP could have done it but at the risk of being stranded in the NZ or in Fed space.

I mean if you HAVE Warp Drive as a power generation source...doesn't it stand to reason that you should have warp drive as a propulsion source? As well if evaluating an enemy's power limited to "simple impulse" would mena that hey did not have anything better than that to not only generate power...BUT TO MOVE WITH?

Not necessarily. TNG established that modern Romulan warbirds do not use a conventional engine core, one relying on a M/AM reaction. Instead they use the energy from an artificial singularity, which provides a source of power equivalent to a traditional warp core. So a Romulan ship might have a warp system, but that would not mean this system would be its primary power generation the way a Fed warp core is. And we don't know how long these singularities have been in use, so is it possible a ship like the BOP prototype could have used an earlier version?

 

[MarianLH]

This doesn't explain why the Enterprise didn't just dodge the shot. There are only two possible ways to interpret that part of the episode:

1) the plasma bolt can turn and follow if the Enterprise tries to move out of its way, or
2) Kirk is a complete moron.

Or:

3) The writers were not hard sci-fi authors and didn't give too much thought to the technical specifications of the weapons and technology the wrote about.

Well, yeah, that goes without saying.


Marian

 

[Robert Simmons]

We aren't talking TNG which is a century removed and really isn't valid since technolgy for all races had evolved. We're talking TOS which is a different set of standards which I think pretty much explain themself. A ships main power plant in TOS is usually a given is the ship's main propulsion. The quote from "BOT"..."To be used in chasing...or retreating" by Stiles is directly addressign the issue of what the romulans would potentially be using that impusle power for. the question is rooted and couched in the terms of MOVEMENT...and NOT power Generation. Yes the Romulans would need a large power supply to power the cloak. But it seems absurd to suggest that ship has a bigger power plant for powering stuff and not have that power availble for movement. As a rule of thumb in ship designs you would want your best power avaialbe for movement. And to have "impulse power" as Scotty replied to coupled with Stiles comment pointed at movement....it is talking directly on the Romulans limited movement capabilities in conjunction with their scary weapon and how to deal with it.

I will admit that in all cases largest power souce may not be used for the engines. But to have a COMBAT ship based on that thinking seems inviting disaster. So i still maintian the bird of prey in BOT was impulse powered for power generation...and for movment. And I have a hard time seeing how anyone else can see it otherwise given the pointed comments collectively in the tactical briefing in BOT.

Oh well....

EDIT: I think I made a mistake in trying to cut corners in this post by splitting Stile's comments and focusing on the Romulan aspect of the question. It might be easier and clearer if I take Stile's comments in whole as he was pointing to directly...."What are we gonna do knowing that all they have is simple impulse?" This is the question in a larger general sense he was pushing everyone to deal with....to attack despite their trying to avoid war by avoid fighting. Which is we know the Romulans are limited intheir power generation to not be able to cloak and fight at the same time. Which means a constrained availability of power. Which can be a tactical limitation and HINDERANCE for the Romulans in this engagement. So Stiles is pushing the issue...are we gonna chase them or retreat from them knowing they are limited to "simple Impulse" as Scotty put it. Stiles was basically trying to show that it would be foolish to walk away from this opponent who is cleary showing a lopsided TACTICAL DISADVANTAGE against the Enterprise despite the Romulan ship having it's scary plasma and what it did to 4 Neutral Zone Outposts. TO any person observing after the fact would think the humans as either foolish, cowardly or stupid if they walked away from a easy kill just asking to be had...and inviting more of the same. And the question begs again...if Scotty says they have "simple impulse" for the purpose of the discussion to look at how the romulan ship moves and shoots....then it speaks to 2 factors....propulsion and abililty to fire. And Scotty is pointing out that they can't do both at the same time due the limitations of impulse power. Which gives Kirk the advantage playing against the Romulan while he is cloaked. And when he becomes visible...nail him. this is the insght gleaned from what the Romulan commander displayred in how he fought .And how people fight is based on their limitations and not so much on what they can do. And this was pretty revealing in BOT, and Kirk played that insight well.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

It surprised me how much people dispute that one line about impulse, when the dialogue that follows it makes it pretty clear.

SCOTT: No question. Their power is simple impulse.
KIRK: Meaning we can outrun them?
STILES: To be used in chasing them or retreating, sir?

To me that makes indisputable that the Romulan Ship was not using any thing that would classify as a warp drive by Federation standards.

It is of course possible that they had one, but needed to elude the Enterprise first in order to decloak and warp back to Romulan space.

My take on it is, the Romulan Impulse drives use subspace fields to “warp” space just like Federation starships do, However unlike Federation Starships, Romulans do not posses the technology to use the fields themselves to propel the vessel forward instead they must use Newtonian thrust to propel the vessel through these fields. This would mean that in a practical sense, they are still propelled by impulse power, but these subspace fields allow them to travel the equivalent of a warp factor but with far less fuel economy making their ships slow and limited in operational range. Star fleet may have used a similar system early in their space faring days, but abandoned it once they developed the technology to contract the space ahead of the vessel and expand it behind the vessel which they consider to be a true “warp drive” since the ship can move forward without any sort of impulse thrust to propel it.

I feel that though this is a remake of a WWII story, there are definitely elements of the cold war in there as well and I think an analogy is being made between Warp Driven starships and Nuclear Powered Naval Vessels vs Impulse Powered starships and conventionally powered naval vessels.

Sorry I can't resists beating this particular dead horse, as for the Romulan Plasma bolt I think the Romulan Commander really just fired it to get the Enterprise off its back and that the weapon was really intended to knock out fixed installations. Perhaps at the time of the first Romulan War, the outposts boasted more advanced weaponry and defences than starships did at the time and the Romulans expected this to still be the case in the 23rd century so developed their attack strategy toward fixed installations not starships.

Also, the remastered “Balance of Terror” makes the plasma bolt opaque, so I guess we could go back to saying there is an actual warhead somewhere in there surrounded by a plasma field. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but the Romulans in the remastered “Deadly Years” don't seem to be firing the same plasma weapon, but something equivalent to photon torpedoes.

 

[Robert Simmons]

Ditto. yeah...like what all Mister_Atoz said.....

 

[friedebarth]

solariabsg52: I don't really get what you ask. If you wanted to know whether Romulans use disruptors (that's what I seem to read in your post) it's best to consult your nearest memory alpha

The disruptor, or phase disruptor, is a type of directed energy weapon in common use among many non-Federation races in the galaxy including the Andorians, Borg, Breen, Cardassians, Dominion, Ferengi, Gorn, Klingons, Lysians, Rigelians, and Romulans.

 

[shipfisher]

I'm enjoying this debate on the TOS BoP's propulsion system. Common sense tells us that any ship operating in an interstellar environment must be FTL capable unless there's something like a mothership nearby - infer what you want in the ep as to whether that could seem plausible, but obviously the show's writer(s) never expected much analysis of the subject. I still don't think that any dialogue in the show precludes the "simple impulse" being a "while cloaked only" situation. To extend the WWII analogy, you had subs/U-boats limited to electric motors only while submerged, with the extra knots of diesel power available only once you showed yourself with a snorkel or fully surfaced.

 

[Tigger]

Romulans using fusion-powered warp drives for the BoP would not be totally out of character with fan Trek history (Spaceflight Chronology) and as such would jive with Scotty's "simple impulse" line. Was it ever said in dialogue that the Phoenix used M/AM to power it's warp drive? If not, nuclear fusion makes more sense for such a small vessel.

 

[shipfisher]

Bit of a tangent here, but now that Tigger brings it up, wasn't there a novel which had the Phoenix powered by a gas core fission plant? That felt sort of right to me, in terms of something that would have probably been around a few decades and thus been available in a small enough format to fit aboard the little x-vehicle and still provide enough power for a short term dash into the warp 1 regime.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Well as someone said earlier, the major factor in TOS was, although they were making more of an attempt to keep things consistant, they still played hard and fast with the rules.

After all, for the writers the Romulans may have been a one-shot deal, never to be seen again.

I think SFB's explaination about "tactical warp" is the one that makes the most sense - explaining why the BOP had to fight at impulse, but could travel interstellar at warp speeds. Otherwise, it would have taken months for the BOP simply to cross the Neutral Zone.

 

[JuanBolio]

Also, its possible that the writers originally intended the neutral zone to only encompass the Romulan home system(s), in which case an impulse ship would've been more practical. Shorter distances and all...

 

[Ronald Held]

isn't it possible the BOP was brought into that sector via a warp carrier?

 

[JuanBolio]

Yes, its possible. However, given the fact that it has nacelles and that the neutral zone was later established to be huge, sectioning off a empire that was even more huge, I think its more logical and reasonable to assume that they were limited to impulse only when cloaked. Scotty had nothing else to go on, anyway.

 

[Deks]

Taking into consideration the Romulans were cutting themselves off from the Feds, it's not a problem to imagine that Scotty was either off the mark, or simply never detected the quantum singularity powered warp drive.
It wasn't until TNG that the Feds learned of this invention, so who knows how long the Romulans had that technology.

Also ... to assume the Romulan Empire would exist without a warp drive is a bit problematic.
It would take them forever to reach anoter star system, let alone the Neutral Zone so their defensive capabilities would easily be shot down by any warp capable species.