Romancing the captain

[miriel68]

First, I would like to make it clear that I enjoyed the character of captain Archer very much. I liked his style of command, his humanity, even his been sometimes weak and irrational. He was very convincing to me as the first Enterprise captain. I also liked the perfomance of Scott Bakula - IMO he was the perfect choice for the part.
However, watching Enterprise for the second time, it struck me how much inconvincing are all "romantic" plots Archer is given (mercifully they are not many): the one in "Civilisation", for example. This is a very Kirk-like episode and I've got an impression it simply doesn't work for Archer. I do try to understand why: after all Bakula is a handsome man, good actor and he is able to have chemistry with the women - I remember several episodes of Quantum Leap in which he was quite convincing in "kiss situations".
I suppose the producers and scriptwrites must have felt the same, because I noticed there are less and less "romantic situations" for Archer as the show goes on. (I also watched a scene of Archer's "date" in the Expanse and I'm REALLY glad they deleted it: because it makes absolutely no sense IMO).
Would love to know what you think about this question.

 

[Trippy]

Alas, we never got enough of the series to delve into this...I would have liked to see him explore the romance with Erika Hernandez...not the 'sex on the mountain makes me all better' bit that we got, but a relationship build with equals (albeit a long distance one if Columbia was called away on a mission)

 

[gblews]

First, I would like to make it clear that I enjoyed the character of captain Archer very much. I liked his style of command, his humanity, even his been sometimes weak and irrational. He was very convincing to me as the first Enterprise captain. I also liked the perfomance of Scott Bakula - IMO he was the perfect choice for the part.
However, watching Enterprise for the second time, it struck me how much inconvincing are all "romantic" plots Archer is given (mercifully they are not many): the one in "Civilisation", for example. This is a very Kirk-like episode and I've got an impression it simply doesn't work for Archer. I do try to understand why: after all Bakula is a handsome man, good actor and he is able to have chemistry with the women - I remember several episodes of Quantum Leap in which he was quite convincing in "kiss situations".
I suppose the producers and scriptwrites must have felt the same, because I noticed there are less and less "romantic situations" for Archer as the show goes on. (I also watched a scene of Archer's "date" in the Expanse and I'm REALLY glad they deleted it: because it makes absolutely no sense IMO).
Would love to know what you think about this question.

Have you watched In a Mirror Darkly I and II, yet? I thought there was some pretty good stuff between Archer and Hoshi in those two.

 

[commodore64]

Miriel68, interesting observations. I agree -- every situation they purposefully put Archer in seeking romance sucked: Rajiin, Erika, the Orion slave girl, etc. I thought the relationship with the woman in Civilization was the best of the purposeful relationships. Erika's situation was about a woman giving sex to make a man feel better (which deflated the very interesting plot of Archer trying to recover his soul). Rajiin and the Orion slave girl both tricked him; using the old Jezebel plot, which is overdone. Sadly for Rajiin, the actress was terrible.

I quite liked Twilight, which to me fits both Archer's character and is a thought provoking romance. Thought provoking? It's not clean. It involves a confusing situation for both participants: T'Pol is his care taker who's partly doing this out of obligation (he saved her life, which caused his condition) and Archer now feels indebted to her (where situations obviously passed to create an intimacy of sorts and yet can't remember them). And yet through the messy relationship, they manage to show some truly romantic - to me - moments. To me, the biggest ways to show true romance is based on the human experience, not merely sex. As crazy as it sounds, I like romance of the soul more than I like seeing people kiss.

And while we're at it, I think there are other accidental situations, much like Twilight, that showcare at least the wonders of friendship with sexual tension between Archer and T'Pol. That's just me and I fear I'm already treading on thin ice.

Have you watched In a Mirror Darkly I and II, yet? I thought there was some pretty good stuff between Archer and Hoshi in those two.

Jezebel plot III. I thought it stunk. The one thing it had going for it was it supposed to be schlocky and silly. Mission accomplished.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

What about his dates with Trip, loads of chemistry there

I actually liked Riann from Civilisation, thought it played very well and I also liked Keyla from 2D2N's - it would have been nice to see her again and it could have proved a nice difficult situation for both as they were attracted to each other but both would know they were working from opposite agendas (thus avoiding the above mentioned Jezebel plot)

 

[miriel68]

Have you watched In a Mirror Darkly I and II, yet? I thought there was some pretty good stuff between Archer and Hoshi in those two.

Yes, I've watched in a Mirror Darkly, if only once. Actually, they are my last favourite episodes of the entire show: they just seem so pointless. And the characters are not themselves, so they have no impact on my, anyway.

On the other hand, I agree with Commodore64 about Twilight being one of the better episodes from that point of view. Of course, it is also a kind of AU, but it explores a possible course of events and remains true to the characters. I liked it that they didn't state clearly what happened between T'Pol and Archer. But on the whole I'm glad in the end we have T'Pol - Trip relationship rather than T'Pol - Archer one in the show.
Erica Hernandez could have been an interesting character, but here again, as Trippy said, they mada a kind of cliche of it (and it's a shame, because Archer's postrauma emotions could have been a really powerful material for an episode). And a relationship between two starship captains is a kind of cliche itself.
I really wonder if it would be possible at all to introduce some kind of romance for Archer in the general storyline of Enterprise. May be captains just can't make convincing lovers?

 

[SFRabid]

Whenever I see the SciFi commercial that says "and the captain always gets the girl" I wonder if the person writing the commercial ever saw the show. Maybe they should say, "and the captain sometimes gets the girl, when the chief engineer is not around to get her first."

...I would have liked to see him explore the romance with Erika Hernandez...

That's the only relationship that seemed real for the captain. He did respond well to Hoshi in the mirror episodes but I think that may have been more Linda Park than him.

 

[suebsg9]

Whenever I see the SciFi commercial that says "and the captain always gets the girl" I wonder if the person writing the commercial ever saw the show. Maybe they should say, "and the captain sometimes gets the girl, when the chief engineer is not around to get her first."

...I would have liked to see him explore the romance with Erika Hernandez...

That's the only relationship that seemed real for the captain. He did respond well to Hoshi in the mirror episodes but I think that may have been more Linda Park than him.

Whenever I hear the commercial on Scifi I always wonder have they got the right guy cause always seem to me Trip was getting more action then the Captain was at times. Or did they rate about the same???

 

[commodore64]

I really thought the purposeful romance of Enterprise was ... terrible. When ENT writers tried for love, they failed. Really in my mind without exception. I know this sounds odd, but I preferred the subtle suggestions of romance way more than what was shown. For example, I loved the scenes with Hoshi and Reed about pineapple cake and the misunderstandings that ensued, Hoshi and Trip in a few episodes like Observer Effect -- sharing memories and moments, etc. To me, that's the foundation of romance: people caring about people. And honestly, I think that helps the writing anyway. What made TOS so appealing wasn't knowing that Kirk was going to hook up with someone. On the contrary, it was Kirk caring about his people and vice versa.

I had the pleasure of watching a TED YouTube video with J.J.Abrams. What he said really resonated -- the characters are why people tune in. He said, for example, E.T. wasn't about a neat alien that landed on Earth, but about a family caught up in a messy divorce and a boy who seemed a little misunderstood and needed a friend.

I really wonder if it would be possible at all to introduce some kind of romance for Archer in the general storyline of Enterprise. May be captains just can't make convincing lovers?

Can captains be lovers? I think so. Kirk was a lover. Sisko had romance. Picard had a girlfriend and even dated someone on his ship.

I think Archer - as a character - wasn't about the romance in general. He was about being a captain and explorer. And maybe because every time they hooked Archer up with someone was dreadful, I was really in favor of not hooking him up.

I never thought Erika was an interesting character unfortunately. I don't think it's a huge cliche to have a captain date a captain. They just did a crummy job of:
1) Building a foundation (a la above) between Erika and Archer.
2) Resolving a character's conflict. Sex will cure Archer and help him recover his soul? So lame and not really resolution. Both real life and interesting television would've encouraged someone from Enterprise to talk with him about his behavior -- Phlox (his doctor), T'Pol (his friend and commander), Trip (his long-time friend), etc.
3) Caring about the characters.

What would've been interesting, had they wanted to do something with Erika, would've been to introduce her in a previous episode and show them as friends. Then, after the Expanse, have her show up to help him without her "saving his soul." I mean -- what would've been nice is hearing Archer say she helped, but it would take a while. That's both more interesting in a television show and more real. From just that alone we know he'll be dealing with tough stuff, but found companionship. Everyone wins.

I liked ENT for the reasons Abrams said: the characters. I loved the potential; I disliked most of the end results.

Whenever I hear the commercial on Scifi I always wonder have they got the right guy cause always seem to me Trip was getting more action then the Captain was at times. Or did they rate about the same???

I think it depends on who you ask. I think Trip got more action -- both more potential action (the possibility of a hook up with T'Pol or the aliens in Two Days Two Nights) and more real action (hook ups). The commercials are really misleading. ENT is so not like TOS in the captain respect really in any way, other than they both get out of tough scrapes by pulling super-human moves. Oh, and some of the friendships.

 

[Bak_and_Blue]

I agree with most of what you've said Commodore.

I too really like Captain Archer, and I am an enormous fan of Scott Bakula. I too am at a quandary as to why all his romantic liasons had a certain "squirm" factor.
I can only guess that he was too much of an over-grown boyscout. In other words, far too rigid in his own self concept of what was appropriate and acceptable behavior.
In Quantum Leap, Al would often accuse Sam's character of being a "prude". I think there is some element of that carried over into Archer's character. In fact, I think that is one reason Bakula was cast in the role: the goody-goody aspect. (Not saying that Bakula can't portray any other types of character. Anyone who has seen his work knows that isn't true.)
Whereas Sam could and would throw caution to the wind and go ahead and follow his desire at times, I don't think the writers felt that Archer could do that and retain his respectability and authority.
I think it was here on TrekBBS (you may have been the one to say it Commodore) that I read that Bakula was wistful about "never getting the girl". He may have wanted to relax Archer up a bit. Again, it is the misstep of tptb on the show that never allowed Archer to be more "human".

 

[suebsg9]

I agree with most of what you've said Commodore.

I too really like Captain Archer, and I am an enormous fan of Scott Bakula. I too am at a quandary as to why all his romantic liasons had a certain "squirm" factor.
I can only guess that he was too much of an over-grown boyscout. In other words, far too rigid in his own self concept of what was appropriate and acceptable behavior.
In Quantum Leap, Al would often accuse Sam's character of being a "prude". I think there is some element of that carried over into Archer's character. In fact, I think that is one reason Bakula was cast in the role: the goody-goody aspect. (Not saying that Bakula can't portray any other types of character. Anyone who has seen his work knows that isn't true.)
Whereas Sam could and would throw caution to the wind and go ahead and follow his desire at times, I don't think the writers felt that Archer could do that and retain his respectability and authority.
I think it was here on TrekBBS (you may have been the one to say it Commodore) that I read that Bakula was wistful about "never getting the girl". He may have wanted to relax Archer up a bit. Again, it is the misstep of tptb on the show that never allowed Archer to be more "human".

See thats what I always got about ARcher he was about the exploring and such and makeing new friends out there in space but never got him as the commercial as scifi has him as just wanting romance and getting the girl its like he isn't Kirk who got the girl in every eps; heck every eps pretty much had ARcher on a new adventure. Not makeing out with any alien chick that came around. So its like how misleading is that I always think ok if you are talking who is getting romance on the ship well then you talking Trip but if you are going to talk about ARcher talk about a man who is out on enterprise seeking out new life.

 

[miriel68]

Can captains be lovers? I think so. Kirk was a lover. Sisko had romance. Picard had a girlfriend and even dated someone on his ship.

I think Archer - as a character - wasn't about the romance in general. He was about being a captain and explorer. And maybe because every time they hooked Archer up with someone was dreadful, I was really in favor of not hooking him up.

Well, I cannot say about Sisko, as I haven't seen DS9 yet, but I found Picard's romantic situations (like "Captain's Holiday") as much forced as Archer's. And Kirk being a lover Errol Flynn style is not much interesting, IMO: you know he will pick a new girl in almost every episode, what fun can it be? It ruined, in my eyes, one of TOS most interesting episodes, The City on the Edge of Forever: Kirk falls in love with Jean Collins, but I wasn't able to sympathise with his grief too much, knowing it will only last until next episode.

The concept of Archer as a kind of overgrown boyscaut is quite accurate, I think, even if he is certainly less so than Sam Beckett in QL. On the whole, I think it would have been an interesting idea to create some discreet sentimental story based on Archer's having strong feelings for someone (not T'Pol and not Hernandez!), fighting them back because of the sense of duty and professional ethic, but occasionally letting them out for a moment.

However, I have to give it to Enterprise producers: at least they picked for Archer women who seemed to be more or less of his age, not some sexy young girls.

 

[Bak_and_Blue]

On the whole, I think it would have been an interesting idea to create some discreet sentimental story based on Archer's having strong feelings for someone (not T'Pol and not Hernandez!), fighting them back because of the sense of duty and professional ethic, but occasionally letting them out for a moment.

I like this idea A LOT.

However, I have to give it to Enterprise producers: at least they picked for Archer women who seemed to be more or less of his age, not some sexy young girls.

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[commodore64]

I found Picard's romantic situations (like "Captain's Holiday") as much forced as Archer's.

I don't know. I thought they were for the most part fine, but liked his interactions with Dr. Crusher (as to my point about caring) best. I care about friendship first. If there's no friendship and there's romance, there's -- imo -- no romance.

And Kirk being a lover Errol Flynn style is not much interesting, IMO: you know he will pick a new girl in almost every episode, what fun can it be? It ruined, in my eyes, one of TOS most interesting episodes, The City on the Edge of Forever: Kirk falls in love with Jean Collins, but I wasn't able to sympathise with his grief too much, knowing it will only last until next episode.

I enjoyed Kirk and was glad that in STII, TWoK that he had at least one illegit kiddo. Seeing a character with vice is refreshing, I think. And it made TOS fun to me.

The concept of Archer as a kind of overgrown boyscaut is quite accurate, I think, even if he is certainly less so than Sam Beckett in QL. On the whole, I think it would have been an interesting idea to create some discreet sentimental story based on Archer's having strong feelings for someone (not T'Pol and not Hernandez!), fighting them back because of the sense of duty and professional ethic, but occasionally letting them out for a moment.

Hmmm. I think T'Pol works, mostly because at least there's friendship there as per my comment above.

In the end, I don't really care if Archer kisses anyone. I just wanted a good character.

However, I have to give it to Enterprise producers: at least they picked for Archer women who seemed to be more or less of his age, not some sexy young girls.

They put him with T'Pol, AU Hoshi, Rajiin, the Orion woman (Navar), Erika and Riann -- only Erika and Riann seemed what one might consider "age-appropriate" to me (women around 40). I thought the woman that played Navar and Riann were good actresses, but didn't think much of Erika and thought the Rajiin was terrrrrrible.

I think bad romance detracts from the show and that when writers decide to go for it should be very cautious. Also a key ingredient is chemistry of actors. If that's not there, no matter the writing, the romance doesn't work. I think it's tough to pull off.

Black-n-Blue, Mike Sussman joked that Scott was happy to "get the girl" in Twilight. I took the online comment as one meant in jest.

 

[miriel68]

They put him with T'Pol, AU Hoshi, Rajiin, the Orion woman (Navar), Erika and Riann -- only Erika and Riann seemed what one might consider "age-appropriate" to me (women around 40). I thought the woman that played Navar and Riann were good actresses, but didn't think much of Erika and thought the Rajiin was terrrrrrible.

Well, AU Hoshi is not "real" Hoshi and AU Archer certrainly has nothing to do with "real" Archer. As for Rajiin and Orion woman, it was not a natural attraction, but kind of spell, if I remember correctly. T'Pol is over sixty... ok, only joking, she doesn't act as if she were sixty, that's for sure. Potentially, they could have developped a relationship, but I do think Archer has too strong an inhibition about going personal with an officer of his staff, so he wouldn't even contemplate a thought.
Erika, Riann and Keyla, on the other hand, seem all well over thirty.

I do agree about friendship and I'm convinced that kind of relationship would fit Archer's character far more than a "romantic" one. But to build something like this, they would need a kind of lasting story emerging from time to time in an episode.

I remember liking very much Picard-Crusher friendship, but did it develop through the seasons? I've got an impression they were always at the same point, and in the meantime they will give Picard "a girl" now and then.

 

[bluedana]

I'm wondering why in the world it's necessary for Archer to have a romantic relationship with anyone on this mission. Why is the default TV position always that the lead guy has to sleep with whatever woman crosses the screen? Why is every female character evaluated in terms of who is the best person for her to have sex with? That's not what Archer was out there for and he knew it. Except for Erika, with whom he had a pre-existing relationship, all other so-called romantic so-called relationships were either flirtations or the result of some alien influence.

I didn't miss it at all, and at no time during the series' run (or since) did I ever think to myself, Gosh, I wish the captain have a meaningless, stupid faux-romance just for the heck of it, just like Kirk! Bonus points if the Babe of the Week gets killed at the end of the episode! And never mind whether Tab A fitting into Slot B is even a universal constant.

Whether you liked Trip/T'Pol or not, at least it had the virtue of being part of the ongoing storyline. I really don't want to watch a soap opera in space, with everyone hooking up with everyone else. (There's enough fan-fic out there to cover those bases.)

Frankly, I wasn't offended by the Erika/Archer plot in Home, mainly because there was some backstory there, and I believe there was a very deep psychological message there for Archer (which I won't bore you with). Both Riann and Keyla were Archer being charming, flirtatious, and very hands-off - and I liked it.

So, I guess I'm in the minority here when I say that I don't think any kind or romance was necessary for Archer, and the show didn't suffer at all for lack of it.

 

[commodore64]

^ Well a minority of two? I would hazard a guess that many didn't want the captain in a romance. Being an Archer/T'Pol shipper, I never wanted Archer and T'Pol to hook up during the show. Hey, I got what I wanted.

Well, AU Hoshi is not "real" Hoshi and AU Archer certrainly has nothing to do with "real" Archer. As for Rajiin and Orion woman, it was not a natural attraction, but kind of spell, if I remember correctly. T'Pol is over sixty... ok, only joking, she doesn't act as if she were sixty, that's for sure. Potentially, they could have developped a relationship, but I do think Archer has too strong an inhibition about going personal with an officer of his staff, so he wouldn't even contemplate a thought.
Erika, Riann and Keyla, on the other hand, seem all well over thirty.

Oh, right Kelya. Thanks! I guess the disappointing parts of Archer romances is that more than half of these women were out to get him using their alien influences (magical or no) to trick him. Poor guy. You think he'd learn after the first or second one.

On the Archer having too strong an inhibition about dating his staff, personally -- all the more reason to create a plot that arranges that. From a dramatic point it puts the captain in conflict with himself.

I realize I'll get stones thrown at me from some folks on the BBS, but I enjoyed A Night in Sickbay from that standpoint. Let's face it, Archer is human. Ergo, he'll think about sex. He's gotten chummy with his female first officer, getting the past the part she's a Vulcan (which he's previously hated), spends a lot of time with her, values her opinion and believes she's attractive. He has a sexy dream about this female first officer and becomes unnerved. Interesting storyline for a guy who doesn't date or get out much. Why is he unnerved? He's in conflict with himself -- he doesn't want to have sexy dreams about his crew, probably especially a Vulcan (which he used to hate) and has to realize he's human. I also like he didn't allow anything to happen. I think that's right.

I liked Twilight, sorry to keep expounding so, so I thought that element enriched that show. When Archer realizes perhaps he and T'Pol had a more intimate relationship (after the "exactly how far?" and the raised eyebrows), I always believed he spent some time being confused and trying to work through many thoughts: "Is this appropriate?", "What exactly happened between us?", "Why did she give up her life to help me?", "How does that make me feel?"

By the way, we're picking on Kirk so I feel compelled to bring up Janice Rand -- a blond character he was attracted to (and in Enemy Within attached when he was EvilKirk). He bemoaned in Naked Time that he couldn't allow anything to happen with this crew woman because it would be inapproriate and that he had to surpress his feelings, despite being incredibly attracted to her. Sounds a little like your storyline. I think after the actress who played Janice left the set unexpectedly, Kirk became a playboy. I wonder if they would've set them up if she'd stayed on.

I remember liking very much Picard-Crusher friendship, but did it develop through the seasons? I've got an impression they were always at the same point, and in the meantime they will give Picard "a girl" now and then.

I didn't really mind. TNG did a nice job of sometimes incorporating Crusher into that dynamic, like when Picard dated a member of his crew. Or when Vash and Crusher met. Crusher met both women and gave advice to Picard, as well as playfully schemed with the girlfriends. Then again, as I've noted above, I'm a friendship first gal.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Schlocky...silly...terrible...crummy...squirmy... Goodness, people, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

Frankly, I wasn't offended by the Erika/Archer plot in Home, mainly because there was some backstory there, and I believe there was a very deep psychological message there for Archer (which I won't bore you with). Both Riann and Keyla were Archer being charming, flirtatious, and very hands-off - and I liked it.

The Erika storyline worked for me also. I didn't cringe away from the scenes Archer had with women, except when I was supposed to cringe--when Rajiin's intimate closeness became a creepy invasion, for example. AU Archer and Hoshi, for me, was just the right blend of really sexy and savage and off-kilter.

I think Archer had an appealing charm and gallantry about him when he was around women. That's one reason I liked "Civilization" so much--the Medieval-type milieu of that episode, with the flowing capes and doublets, crossbows and apothecary and candles--Archer's chivalrous behavior with Riann fit right in. And it was organic to the storyline, rather than being shoehorned in there just to get some kissage in.

You don't see that solicitousness and caring taken to the "romance" place much with Archer, but you see it on a friendship level a lot with T'Pol, and with women he befriends, like Bethany, and with his "sister," Danica. Archer has some great scenes with Hoshi--when they're practicing Tellarite insults (one of my favorite scenes between them), or when Archer is convincing post-tortured Hoshi to come through for him with the Xindi code stuff while they're en route to the superweapon.

Sure, it would have been interesting to see a longer-term something-or-other build over time between Archer and a lady, but he has this job that makes long-term romance exceedingly difficult... The writing staff would have had to work at it, and three more seasons would have helped. And this is Star Trek, not exactly a paragon for romance storylines.

 

[borgboy]

I think Archer had more chemistry with Trip, and to a lesser degree Reed, than he did with any of the women they tried to set him up with. Too bad TPTB didn't have the stones to go that route with him.

 

[SFRabid]

I think Archer had more chemistry with Trip, and to a lesser degree Reed, than he did with any of the women they tried to set him up with. Too bad TPTB didn't have the stones to go that route with him.

But of course that would have been a huge marketing mistake. Think about it. If you are pushing the sex appeal of your star to you do it towards 95% of the women out there or 5% of the men? Same with Blalok. They put her in a cat suit. Did they do that for 95% of the men or 5% of the women who watch. Agenda is one thing, but ratings is another and Enterprise needed all the ratings it could get.